In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Edward]

Surely, all men are born destined to eventually sin, and by no choice of their own. But they are not held accountable for their sin until God judges them to be accountable for their sin - Romans 7:9. No inconsistency here.

Calvinism says that because of the way God has made them, both lost sinner and saved saint have pre-programmed routes they will take in life, yet the lost sinner is the one who bears responsibility for the way God made them. That's inconsistent.

How many legs does a cow have?

Four you say?

Now suppose we call the cows tail a leg, how many legs does the cow have now?

If you say five you are still wrong. Calling a cows tail a leg does not make it so!

 

[Fastfredy0]

In Calvinism, the lost sinner does in fact have an excuse. You made me to be this way without remedy and there's nothing I can do about it.

This is factually incorrect. God and Calvinism says all people are without excuse (Romans 1:20). (Aside: ignoring the 'age of accountability' issue).
Agreed, God and Calvinism say God made you "this way" Colossians 1:16-17. The bible and Calvinism also says God applies a remedy to those He chose (elected/predestined/appointed).


Regarding person born in 1200s who never heard of Christ you say:

He is forgiven by responding in faith to the law written on his heart by the Spirit through nature and conscience. We see this truth in the example of the Israelites who responded to the revelation of God through the law in an attitude of works rather than faith

So, your theory is that this fictitious guy is saved by faith by instinctively knowing there is a moral law and trying to follow it.

Premise 1: John 3:18b the one who does not believe is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God
Premise 2: A person born in 1200s dies having never heard of Christ
Conclusion: Your statement contracts scripture and therefore is false

again ...
Premise 1: John 3:36 He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”
Premise 2: A person born in 1200s dies having never heard of Christ
Conclusion: Your statement contracts scripture and therefore is false

-----------------------
Can they who have never heard the gospel, and so know not Jesus Christ, nor believe in him, be saved by their living according to the light of nature? The Westminster Larger Catechism – Question 60

A60: They who, having never heard the gospel,[1] know not Jesus Christ,[2] and believe not in him, cannot be saved,[3] be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature,[4] or the laws of that religion which they profess;[5] neither is there salvation in any other, but in Christ alone,[6] who is the Savior only of his body the church.[7]

1. Romans 10:14, 2. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; Ephesians 2:12; John 1:11-12, 3. John 8:24; Mark 16:16,

4. 1 Corinthians 1:20-24, 5. John 4:22; Romans 9:31-32; Philippians 3:4-9, 6. Acts 4:12, 7. Ephesians 5:23

____________________________
https://www.gotquestions.org/inclusivism-exclusivism.html

Aside: There's a couple other people on this site that believe in "inclusivism" so your not alone. Thanks for responding. I think we know where each other stands.

 

[jasonc]

This is factually incorrect. God and Calvinism says all people are without excuse (Romans 1:20). (Aside: ignoring the 'age of accountability' issue).
Agreed, God and Calvinism say God made you "this way" Colossians 1:16-17. The bible and Calvinism also says God applies a remedy to those He chose (elected/predestined/appointed).


Regarding person born in 1200s who never heard of Christ you say:

So, your theory is that this fictitious guy is saved by faith by instinctively knowing there is a moral law and trying to follow it.

Premise 1: John 3:18b the one who does not believe is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God
Premise 2: A person born in 1200s dies having never heard of Christ
Conclusion: Your statement contracts scripture and therefore is false

again ...
Premise 1: John 3:36 He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”
Premise 2: A person born in 1200s dies having never heard of Christ
Conclusion: Your statement contracts scripture and therefore is false

-----------------------
Can they who have never heard the gospel, and so know not Jesus Christ, nor believe in him, be saved by their living according to the light of nature? The Westminster Larger Catechism – Question 60

A60: They who, having never heard the gospel,[1] know not Jesus Christ,[2] and believe not in him, cannot be saved,[3] be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature,[4] or the laws of that religion which they profess;[5] neither is there salvation in any other, but in Christ alone,[6] who is the Savior only of his body the church.[7]

1. Romans 10:14, 2. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; Ephesians 2:12; John 1:11-12, 3. John 8:24; Mark 16:16,

4. 1 Corinthians 1:20-24, 5. John 4:22; Romans 9:31-32; Philippians 3:4-9, 6. Acts 4:12, 7. Ephesians 5:23

____________________________
https://www.gotquestions.org/inclusivism-exclusivism.html

Aside: There's a couple other people on this site that believe in "inclusivism" so your not alone. Thanks for responding. I think we know where each other stands.

I'm not reformed .but no a person who hasn't heard can't be saved .

To say otherwise creates a problem a jw who was never told otherwise or Mormon etc will be in heaven .

 

[GodsGrace]

This is factually incorrect. God and Calvinism says all people are without excuse (Romans 1:20). (Aside: ignoring the 'age of accountability' issue).
Agreed, God and Calvinism say God made you "this way" Colossians 1:16-17. The bible and Calvinism also says God applies a remedy to those He chose (elected/predestined/appointed).

Herein lies the problem...
You say Romans states that persons are without excuse.
Which they are.
Why?
Because everyone knows that they must believe in God if they are to be saved.
Acts 16:31 states that we are to believe in Jesus IF we are to be saved. We WILL be saved---future tense.

You state above that God applies a remedy to those He chooses to save because He predestinated them.
So is Acts 16:31 wrong? It states that we are to BELIEVE in Jesus and WE WILL be saved.
Romans 10:17 states that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
Is Romans wrong too?

What about those not chosen by God?
They end up in hell?

So how does this make God a just God?

As you must know JUSTICE means to give to each one WHAT HE DESERVES.
If God doesn't give the same opportunity to EVERYONE, then how is He dispensing justice?

Regarding person born in 1200s who never heard of Christ you say:

So, your theory is that this fictitious guy is saved by faith by instinctively knowing there is a moral law and trying to follow it.

Premise 1: John 3:18b the one who does not believe is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God
Premise 2: A person born in 1200s dies having never heard of Christ
Conclusion: Your statement contracts scripture and therefore is false

FF, YOU don't know what happens to these persons you keep bringing up.
You're not God...He hasn't gone on vacation and put you in charge...HE is still responsible for judgment and is still sovereign.
God doesn't need you to tell Him who is saved and who isn't.
So, could you please stop deflecting?
Because that's all you're doing.

again ...
Premise 1: John 3:36 He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”
Premise 2: A person born in 1200s dies having never heard of Christ
Conclusion: Your statement contracts scripture and therefore is false

-----------------------
Can they who have never heard the gospel, and so know not Jesus Christ, nor believe in him, be saved by their living according to the light of nature? The Westminster Larger Catechism – Question 60

A60: They who, having never heard the gospel,[1] know not Jesus Christ,[2] and believe not in him, cannot be saved,[3] be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature,[4] or the laws of that religion which they profess;[5] neither is there salvation in any other, but in Christ alone,[6] who is the Savior only of his body the church.[7]

1. Romans 10:14, 2. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; Ephesians 2:12; John 1:11-12, 3. John 8:24; Mark 16:16,

4. 1 Corinthians 1:20-24, 5. John 4:22; Romans 9:31-32; Philippians 3:4-9, 6. Acts 4:12, 7. Ephesians 5:23

____________________________
https://www.gotquestions.org/inclusivism-exclusivism.html

Aside: There's a couple other people on this site that believe in "inclusivism" so your not alone. Thanks for responding. I think we know where each other stands.

This is not what the OP is about.
Please read it again and do not change the topic.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is factually incorrect. God and Calvinism says all people are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

Yes, the scriptures are very clear that all people are without excuse. That's a Biblical fact. That's what makes Calvinism's assertion that God purposely makes some people to be forever incapable of turning to God false. Calvinism literally assigns to the lost sinner the excuse for not being saved that the Bible says all people have.

These doctrines cooked up by men are often so over thought they miss the obvious.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The bible and Calvinism also says God applies a remedy to those He chose (elected/predestined/appointed).

Isn't it, rather, that Calvinism says God purposely makes some people able to receive the remedy, and the rest he doesn't make able to receive the remedy?

 

[Fastfredy0]

That's a Biblical fact. That's what makes Calvinism's assertion that God purposely makes some people to be forever incapable of turning to God false.

I suggest what makes doctrine true or false is what the bible says (and not your logic as to what you think is fair or not).
Therefore I simply submit the following:
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. AMP
It plainly says it is GOD's will that determines who is saved or not. Like I can do another 400 verses that support my contention. There are about 4 verses to support yours and they all depend on the ambiguous meaning of ALL, EVERYONE (which is a synonym for ALL) or WORLD.

RE: Your doctrine of inclusivism
Eph 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God. AMP

 

[Fastfredy0]

Isn't it, rather, that Calvinism says God purposely makes some people able to receive the remedy, nd the rest he didn't make able to receive the remedy?

True, the bible and Calvinism and Augustine say God picks who will be saved. (the bible is the infallible source)

Premise 1: God chose use before creation (Eph. 2:12) ....notice you is doing choosing, it's not us
Premise 2: From nothing, nothing comes
Conclusions: Since the only source of information for God before creation was himself and He knew who would be saved then God must have determined what He would do and who he would save. Aside: this is the foundation for God being all knowing. IT's not like He can ask "nothing" what will happen in the future and then uses that information for prophecy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Isn't it, rather, that Calvinism says God purposely makes some people able to receive the remedy, and the rest he doesn't make able to receive the remedy?

God purposefully chooses under reformed theology. It goes beyond making them able to receive.

 

[GodsGrace]

True, the bible and Calvinism and Augustine say God picks who will be saved. (the bible is the infallible source)

Premise 1: God chose use before creation (Eph. 2:12) ....notice you is doing choosing, it's not us
Premise 2: From nothing, nothing comes
Conclusions: Since the only source of information for God before creation was himself and He knew who would be saved then God must have determined what He would do and who he would save. Aside: this is the foundation for God being all knowing. IT's not like He can ask "nothing" what will happen in the future and then uses that information for prophecy.

I do appreciate your honesty and intelligence.

 

[Edward]

I suggest what makes doctrine true or false is what the bible says (and not your logic as to what you think is fair or not).
Therefore I simply submit the following:
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. AMP
It plainly says it is GOD's will that determines who is saved or not. Like I can do another 400 verses that support my contention. There are about 4 verses to support yours and they all depend on the ambiguous meaning of ALL, EVERYONE (which is a synonym for ALL) or WORLD.

RE: Your doctrine of inclusivism
Eph 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God. AMP

I think what you are saying is that, man does not have a free will?

 

[Fastfredy0]

I think what you are saying is that, man does not have a free will?

Maybe, one has to define "Free Will" first. Then, to support that definition in the context of doctrine... submit bible verses showing we have "free will".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I suggest what makes doctrine true or false is what the bible says (and not your logic as to what you think is fair or not).

I'm not talking about fairness here (though I do see Calvin's God being quite unfair to the lost).

What I'm talking about here is the Bible clearly says men are without excuse for not giving God glory and thanks and for becoming futile in their thinking and darkened in their understanding because God testifies about himself in creation itself (Romans 1:20-21) . But then Calvin comes along and says God purposely makes most people to never be able to do that, giving those people the very excuse that Paul says they do not have!

Therefore I simply submit the following:

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. AMP
It plainly says it is GOD's will that determines who is saved or not. Like I can do another 400 verses that support my contention. There are about 4 verses to support yours and they all depend on the ambiguous meaning of ALL, EVERYONE (which is a synonym for ALL) or WORLD.

The mistake you're making is thinking this means there is no will of man involved in salvation whatsoever. It doesn't mean that at all. It means the will of man is not in the drivers seat, not that it is not needed for a person to be saved.

A lonely sinner can will and desire for the salvation of God all he wants, but until God reaches down to the sinner 'taint nothing going to happen, and so salvation is not of the will of man but rather the mercy of God. The will of a person is not going to move the hand of God one inch. But certainly the will of that person must be present to receive the mercy of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

RE: Your doctrine of inclusivism
Eph 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God. AMP

I read the Bible, not commentaries, lol. What is 'inclusivism'?

 

[Edward]

Maybe, one has to define "Free Will" first. Then, to support that definition in the context of doctrine... submit bible verses showing we have "free will".

Here's one.

Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:.../

The entire chapter speaks to the subject. We are to choose between Life & good, and death & evil. In fact, we have to make many choices everyday, even in our thoughts.

The entire theme of the Bible is that God is doing something special with mankind. And that mankind will be exalted unto God. But we must make the choice. Then confess and testify. All those scriptures about choose then whom you will serve this day...That's Free Will in action.

Joshua 24:14-15
14 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”.../

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not reformed .but no a person who hasn't heard can't be saved .

To say otherwise creates a problem a jw who was never told otherwise or Mormon etc will be in heaven .

JW's and Mormons HAVE heard. They definitely are without excuse. But Calvinism gives them the excuse that the Bible says no man has.

 

[Fastfredy0]

But then Calvin comes along and says God purposely makes most people to never be able to do that, giving those people the very excuse that Paul says they do not have!

I don't want to keep beating a dead horse. You think people can be saved without Christ because otherwise they would have an excuse and the conflicts with Romans 1 saying people are without excuse, that's up to you.
Premise 1: People are without excuse (we agree)
Premise 2: people must have a way to be saved or they would have an excuse (Your false premise, not scripture for it)
Conclusion: There is salvation without Christ (your contention)
Yeah, I get it. We disagree and as I pointed out John 3:18 says Christ is the only way to be saved which shows premise 2 to be false IMO
Aside: If one can be saved without Christ maybe you should use that method to evangelize especially if it is more efficient that "faith in Christ".

The mistake you're making is thinking this means there is no will of man involved in salvation whatsoever. It doesn't mean that at all. It means the will of man is not in the drivers seat, not that it is not needed for a person to be saved.

Premise 1) I agree that man has a will in salvation.
Premise 2) I agree that "man's will is involved in salvation"
Premise 3) I agree the "man's will is not in the driver seat"
Premise 4) I agree that man's will is needed to be saved
Conclusion: God determines who is saved because "Man's will is not in the driver seat" (John 1:12-13)

A lonely sinner can will and desire for the salvation of God all he wants, but until God reaches down to the sinner 'taint nothing going to happen, and so salvation is not of the will of man but rather the mercy of God. The will of a person is not going to move the hand a God one inch. But certainly the will of that person must be present to receive the mercy of God.

You sure you aren't on my side? I agree, God determines who is saved and God must make the first move. He regenerated us changing our will causing us to believe and repent.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Here's one.

Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:.../

Aside: Well, you didn't define "Free Will" which is the foundation of this discussion .... ... as that is the hypothetical power behind a person's ability to chose without God ... anyways ...
There are a lot of verses like this that say chose "A(salvation)" or "B(non salvation)", but those verses do not address the metaphysical reason why one chooses "A" or "B". I can say "flap your arms and fly down from yonder roof top" but because you have a innate disposition to not do so,you won't. Similarly, God has given you an innate disposition to not seek Him (I can give 60ish verses about man's depravity if needed) and the only way to overcome that is by God's will and not yours (John 1:12-13; and many, many more)

The entire chapter speaks to the subject. We are to choose between Life & good, and death & evil. In fact, we have to make many choices everyday, even in our thoughts.

The entire theme of the Bible is that God is doing something special with mankind. And that mankind will be exalted unto God. But we must make the choice. Then confess and testify. All those scriptures about choose then whom you will serve this day...That's Free Will in action.

All true. But the verses don't address the ability to choose one way or another and that is the crux of the question. Why did you choose "A" or "B". What/who is the cause?
Joshua And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, (who determines the choice is the crux of the question. The verse doesn't say who cause man to choose.)

 

[Fastfredy0]

What is 'inclusivism'?

Inclusivism is the view that people actually appropriate God’s gift of salvation only on the basis of Jesus Christ’s atoning work, but that the sinner need not explicitly believe the gospel in order to actually receive this salvation. Inclusivism teaches that Christianity is the only true religion (including the belief that Christ is the only Savior of men), but that this salvation could be made available through means other than explicit faith in Christ. The inclusivist believes that adherents of other religions and even atheists can be saved by responding to God’s revelation in creation or through the elements of truth contained within their non-Christian religion. https://www.gotquestions.org/inclusivism-exclusivism.html

I read the Bible, not commentaries

I guess I'm not that smart. I figure people that spend years studying the bible and discussing it with others might be able to shed light on things I would never think of...granted, one should be like the Bereans (Acts 17:10-15) and double check what one hears. God gives people the gift to teach ... I suppose you go without using that gift.
Aside: Everyone read commentaries to a degree. You depend upon commentators to translate the Greek and Hebrew into english. Some do it more literally than others.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Regarding person born in 1200s who never heard of Christ you say:
So, your theory is that this fictitious guy is saved by faith by instinctively knowing there is a moral law and trying to follow it.

Premise 1: John 3:18b the one who does not believe is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God
Premise 2: A person born in 1200s dies having never heard of Christ
Conclusion: Your statement contracts scripture and therefore is false

again ...
Premise 1: John 3:36 He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”
Premise 2: A person born in 1200s dies having never heard of Christ
Conclusion: Your statement contracts scripture and therefore is false

-----------------------
Can they who have never heard the gospel, and so know not Jesus Christ, nor believe in him, be saved by their living according to the light of nature? The Westminster Larger Catechism – Question 60

A60: They who, having never heard the gospel,[1] know not Jesus Christ,[2] and believe not in him, cannot be saved,[3] be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature,[4] or the laws of that religion which they profess;[5] neither is there salvation in any other, but in Christ alone,[6] who is the Savior only of his body the church.[7]

1. Romans 10:14, 2. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; Ephesians 2:12; John 1:11-12, 3. John 8:24; Mark 16:16,

4. 1 Corinthians 1:20-24, 5. John 4:22; Romans 9:31-32; Philippians 3:4-9, 6. Acts 4:12, 7. Ephesians 5:23

____________________________
https://www.gotquestions.org/inclusivism-exclusivism.html

Aside: There's a couple other people on this site that believe in "inclusivism" so your not alone. Thanks for responding. I think we know where each other stands.

Do you question that this faith being demonstrated by our Amazonian Forest dweller from the 1200's is really faith? (Fun fact: Amazon Prime was only $29.99 back then). He has the faith described by the author of Hebrews...

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:3

6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Hebrews 11:6

Let's relate this to Romans 2:13-16. In that passage Paul says that when this person who has no knowledge of the law and the gospel does by nature and conscience what the law requires he shows that he has the work of the law written on his heart. And so his obedience according to this limited revelation of God through nature and conscience he has (he knows nothing of the gospel promise of a Son) is the result of understanding, by faith, that "the universe was formed at God's command", and that "He rewards those who earnestly seek Him" (see references above). And so this man is 'saved' by this faith expressed in his obedience to the law written on his heart through the revelation of God in nature and the witness of his conscience.