In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Fastfredy0]

Do you question that this faith being demonstrated by our Amazonian Forest dweller from the 1200's is really faith? (Fun fact: Amazon Prime was only $29.99 back then). He has the faith described by the author of Hebrews...

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:3

6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him. Hebrews 11:6

Salvific faith requires facts to be believed in order to be saved. I believe (have faith) that if I drop a pencil it will fall. This is faith, but it is not Faith that Saves.
Similarly, Heb. 11:3 is about faith, but knowledge that the universe was formed by God is not "saving faith"; if it was then the Muslims would be saved (maybe you believe they are). You need to read verses that speak of: Faith that leads to salvation and what the contents of that faith are.

Same analysis of Heb 11:6 though believing God exists is a part of "Saving Faith" but not all of it. Again, one must read ALL of the verses that define what SAVING FAITH is (not what Faith is) and what SAVING FAITH cannot be. John 3:18 says what SAVING FAITH is not ... I says FAITH DEPENDS ON KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST and therefore one knows the Amazonian could not have been saved.

Aside: I you ask 10 knowledgeable Christians the exact formula for what one must do to be saved you will probably get 9 different (not totally different) answers. You're a good example.

 

[GodsGrace]

Aside: Well, you didn't define "Free Will" which is the foundation of this discussion .... ... as that is the hypothetical power behind a person's ability to chose without God ... anyways ...
There are a lot of verses like this that say chose "A(salvation)" or "B(non salvation)", but those verses do not address the metaphysical reason why one chooses "A" or "B". I can say "flap your arms and fly down from yonder roof top" but because you have a innate disposition to not do so,you won't. Similarly, God has given you an innate disposition to not seek Him (I can give 60ish verses about man's depravity if needed) and the only way to overcome that is by God's will and not yours (John 1:12-13; and many, many more)


All true. But the verses don't address the ability to choose one way or another and that is the crux of the question. Why did you choose "A" or "B". What/who is the cause?
Joshua And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, (who determines the choice is the crux of the question. The verse doesn't say who cause man to choose.)

Edward

Hi Ed,
Hate to bud in, but you won't be able to give Fastfredy0 an explanation of free will that will suit him.
He and I went on for pages about this.

Calvinists do not believe in free will.
You know, the kind of free will even a 6 year old knows about.

FF is a smart fella, but he can get bogged down.
Do your best!

 

[jasonc]

JW's and Mormons HAVE heard. They definitely are without excuse. But Calvinism gives them the excuse that the Bible says no man has.

No.you assume that the church reaches them .I grew up in the jw.i had persons led by God that told me.

These do missionary work


That said .
Free will isn' the ability to make decisions in this ,but rather can you change what you are without God.

If it was so true then well a six year and in this day and age .can think and desire and will change genders despite what nature God made them .
Woman can do anything that men do and vice versa despite what God set limits .

No,that isn't true .

If att it took was for man to reach to God then why would God even have to find man ,
Noticed God found Adam and they hid from God .

Start defining will accordibg to ability not choices .

I desire my PTSD to be gone .I don't have the ability to erase or rewire my memory or mind .the human brain literally rewires itself to handle that .and it's noticed on MRI .but I digress

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I guess I'm not that smart. I figure people that spend years studying the bible and discussing it with others might be able to shed light on things I would never think of...

Amen. That's how it works.
But the people we discuss it with is our fellow brothers and sisters. Sure, some of them have been influenced by commentaries they've read, but at the end of the day it is in the common everyday fellowship of believers where we learn the most. You are making a contribution towards that, and so am I. It's not a contest to see who knows the most. It's a contest of sorts to see who can learn the most from the pool of knowledge within in our fellowship. Even when that pool is more like a cesspool, lol, we can still learn from each other the way God intended.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You sure you aren't on my side? I agree, God determines who is saved and God must make the first move. He regenerated us changing our will causing us to believe and repent.

All true. But the verses don't address the ability to choose one way or another and that is the crux of the question. Why did you choose "A" or "B". What/who is the cause?
Joshua And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, (who determines the choice is the crux of the question. The verse doesn't say who cause man to choose.)

We need to go to the Parable of the Sower to examine this. Calvinism says God determines what 'will' you will possess. That would be the equivalent of God determining what potential a person's soil will have to receive, retain, and bring to fruition the word of God when it is planted and watered, at his will, in a person's life. Does God determine and assign the potential, or lack of potential in any one plot soil as he wills? Or is that potential, or lack of potential a quality of the creature itself and God simply exposes it, nurturing it where it exists, and condemning it where it doesn't?

I can't be on line all day, though I could easily talk your ear off about this subject, lol. Got's me a 'honey-do' list to tend to. I'll be back.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen. That's how it works.
But the people we discuss it with is our fellow brothers and sisters. Sure, some of them have been influenced by commentaries they've read, but at the end of the day it is in the common everyday fellowship of believers where we learn the most. You are making a contribution towards that, and so am I. It's not a contest to see who knows the most. It's a contest of sorts to see who can learn the most from the pool of knowledge within in our fellowship. Even when that pool is more like a cesspool, lol, we can still learn from each other the way God intended.

2
Influenced by commentaries...
Is this what you think the reformed are?
Influenced by commentaries?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Aside: Everyone read commentaries to a degree. You depend upon commentators to translate the Greek and Hebrew into english.

That I do. I do rely on unbiased, scholarly translation of Greek and Hebrews. No question about that. I pretty much reject everything beyond that and rely on the 'the Bible interprets itself' way of learning the truths of the Bible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2
Influenced by commentaries...
Is this what you think the reformed are?
Influenced by commentaries?

Some of my fellow brothers and sisters are indeed influenced by commentaries about Reformed theology. That's how I even know about Reformed theology. They didn't write them, they read them, and believed them and I talk to them about it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God gives people the gift to teach ... I suppose you go without using that gift.

No, not at all.
I just reject commentaries as a reliable source of teaching. For reasons that I can elaborate on, but won't because of lack of time. But the bottom line is they are paid for sources of biased information. That restrains them from being an honest and humble and pliable source of information.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Inclusivism is the view that people actually appropriate God’s gift of salvation only on the basis of Jesus Christ’s atoning work, but that the sinner need not explicitly believe the gospel in order to actually receive this salvation. Inclusivism teaches that Christianity is the only true religion (including the belief that Christ is the only Savior of men), but that this salvation could be made available through means other than explicit faith in Christ. The inclusivist believes that adherents of other religions and even atheists can be saved by responding to God’s revelation in creation or through the elements of truth contained within their non-Christian religion. https://www.gotquestions.org/inclusivism-exclusivism.html

Well, I guess I be 'inclusivism' then, lol!

Hey, Uncle Jed, I just leant I'm some kind of inclusivism!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Inclusivism is the view that people actually appropriate God’s gift of salvation only on the basis of Jesus Christ’s atoning work, but that the sinner need not explicitly believe the gospel in order to actually receive this salvation.

ONLY in the absence of the direct and specific revelation of the gospel in the face of Christ, the promised Son. Maybe a better way to put it is 'the sinner need not know the explicit details of the gospel in order to actually receive this salvation.'

Abraham, for example, did not have this direct revelation, yet he was saved by believing the limited revelation of the gospel that he did have.

 

[GodsGrace]

Some of my fellow brothers and sisters are indeed influenced by commentaries about Reformed theology. That's how I even know about Reformed theology. They didn't write them, they read them, and believed them and I talk to them about it.

But they don't learn reformed theology from commentaries.
And that's not how you should know about it.
But you do know a lot, I give you that.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Does God determine and assign the potential, or lack of potential in any one plot soil as he wills? Or is that potential, or lack of potential a quality of the creature itself and God simply exposes it, nurturing it where it exists, and condemning it where it doesn't?

If you know of another power that is independent of God that can control some things, tell us about it; where did it comes from?what can it do?
Premise 1: GOD created all things
Conclusion: God controls all things for He sets all the parameters.

Like, I can build a car and all it can do is determined by me. Man is more complicated, but same idea. Man cannot do anything he was not designed to do.

Col. 1:16-17, Heb. 3:1b [Jesus is] upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal].
... so you contradict Heb 3:1 which says God upholds and maintains and propels ALL THINGS

I am still waiting for you to explain John 3:18 that says everyone will be judged guilty if "he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God".

 

[Fastfredy0]

No question about that. I pretty much reject everything beyond that and rely on the 'the Bible interprets itself' way of learning the truths of the Bible.

That puts you at a big disadvantage.

Proverbs 24:6 For by wise guidance you can wage your war, And in an abundance of [wise] counselors there is victory and safety.

Premise 1: 1 Cor. 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
Premise 2: Jethro says: "I pretty much reject everything beyond that and rely on the 'the Bible interprets itself'"
Conclusion: God wasted His time when assigning the gift of teaching where is concern Jethro B

 

[Fastfredy0]

Abraham, for example, did not have this direct revelation, yet he was saved by believing the limited revelation of the gospel that he did have.

This statement contradicts scripture:
Genesis 22:11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called the name of that place, “The Lord will provide”; as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the Lord it shall be provided.” 15 And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you,

Aside: To keep things simple, best to talk about facts that are relevant to today.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you know of another power that is independent of God that can control some things, tell us about it; where did it comes from?what can it do?
Premise 1: GOD created all things
Conclusion: God controls all things for He sets all the parameters.

Like, I can build a car and all it can do is determined by me. Man is more complicated, but same idea. Man cannot do anything he was not designed to do.

Col. 1:16-17, Heb. 3:1b [Jesus is] upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal].
... so you contradict Heb 3:1 which says God upholds and maintains and propels ALL THINGS

I am still waiting for you to explain John 3:18 that says everyone will be judged guilty if "he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God".

I'm so hurt that you won't talk to me.
I know it's tough...but try.

Premise 1.... God created all things.
Premise 2.... God created man in His image.
Premise 3... God has free will.
Conclusion: Man has free will because God created man in His image.

It would be interesting to discuss if God truly has free will
or if He must adhere to His nature.

What do YOU think?

And don't ask me what free will is.
Make believe you've read Systematic Theology and you know.

Aside: Systematic theology is not the best way to learn about God.

 

[Edward]

Aside: Well, you didn't define "Free Will" which is the foundation of this discussion .... ... as that is the hypothetical power behind a person's ability to chose without God ... anyways ...
There are a lot of verses like this that say chose "A(salvation)" or "B(non salvation)", but those verses do not address the metaphysical reason why one chooses "A" or "B". I can say "flap your arms and fly down from yonder roof top" but because you have a innate disposition to not do so,you won't. Similarly, God has given you an innate disposition to not seek Him (I can give 60ish verses about man's depravity if needed) and the only way to overcome that is by God's will and not yours (John 1:12-13; and many, many more)


All true. But the verses don't address the ability to choose one way or another and that is the crux of the question. Why did you choose "A" or "B". What/who is the cause?
Joshua And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, (who determines the choice is the crux of the question. The verse doesn't say who cause man to choose.)

We make the choice so it is us exercising our free will to choose according to our preferance.

Proverbs 16:9
9 We can make our plans,
but the Lord determines our steps.../NLT

Free will is a gift to mankind from God. He wants us to have the choice in everything. The Lord does not force Himself upon anyone. He is still in control of everything and will do what He wants to with what is His. But that doesn't mean there is no such thing as free will. He simply set it al up so that we can pray to Him and ask for things and for help. You have not because you ask not.

They have been calling the earth, God's University of Brotherly Love. But most of us can see that it's more like, the valley of tears. The valley of the shadow of death. If earth is a heavenly university, then why do we get amnesia before we come, and have to search out our own classes? And almost everything on earth is a funhouse of sorrows and death. It's like a mine field out there for us. Is this my class? they all say yes! 92% are lying, lol. So there is man's oppurtunity to make choices, either good or bad, according to the desires of his own heart.

 

[Edward]

I desire my PTSD to be gone .I don't have the ability to erase or rewire my memory or mind .the human brain literally rewires itself to handle that .and it's noticed on MRI .but I digress

I heard a series of videos by some scientist lady who has a bazillion years experience with the brain and how it works. She says it takes 21 days to rewire your brain and your very thoughts is the way to do it. You should look up her videos on Youtube, her name is Caroline Leaf.

She's got cool visual aids of the basic mechanics of it in your brain. Caroline Leaf.

 

[Fastfredy0]

We make the choice so it is us exercising our free will to choose according to our preferance.

Again, despite my request, you have not defined "free will" which makes comprehension difficult. For instance, I believe in free will but I confident it varies from your definition. Anyways, making assertions about an undefined term clouds understanding.

Free will is a gift to mankind from God. He wants us to have the choice in everything.

Do you have a scripture to support your claim. Again, define "free will".

I can agree that God wants us to have a choice but not in everything.... for example, I didn't choose to have a depraved nature. Again, who determines what we choice? Prov. 16:9 says it is God determining our choices, yet you say it is man using the term FREE WILL which you refuse to define . Like, I can say our decisions are guided by andofraction but if I don't define andofraction then my statement has not foundation.
John 1:12-13 says it God's will that determines if we are born again or not
Proverbs 33:11 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord. ... implying God decides EVERYTHING
.... where are your verses saying we make any decisions free from God ????
.... again, you refuse to define FREE WILL so it's difficult to know what you are talking about

The Lord does not force Himself upon anyone. He is still in control of everything and will do what He wants to with what is His

This is a contradiction. God cannot control everything and yet not force Himself on anyone. I will liberally define the term "force" to include making a person do something he does not want to do (i.e. Jonah) and causing a person to do what he wants to do. When it comes to salvation specifically, God regenerates a person causing him to willingly believe and follow. When it comes to disobeying God, God causes it by giving him a depraved nature.

So there is man's oppurtunity to make choices, either good or bad, according to the desires of his own heart.

I agree that man makes choices. I contention is: WHAT CAUSES MAN TO MAKE HIS CHOICES? I say God and use scripture and you say FREE WILL, but you won't define it or give scripture to support your claims.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

God and Calvinism says all people are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

Dear friend,
Paul is saying people are without excuse for not believing in God. This point alone shows how Calvinism can't be right.

Paul is speaking of people who knew about God, yet walked away from him. This also disproves Calvinism.

Paul says as a result of the decision to forget about God, hearts become darkened, also disproving Calvinism.

Anyway, Paul isn't saying sinners are incapable of realizing their need for God.