In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Edward]

Oh, it takes 21 days for the first stage of rewiring your brain. It's 63 days total she says:

In fact, Leaf says, it takes 63 days for neuroplasticity to occur. "It takes 21 days to break down your thoughts and start the building process, but real neuroplasticity happens after 63 days," she says..../

 

[Edward]

Oh, it takes 21 days for the first stage of rewiring your brain. It's 63 days total she says:

In fact, Leaf says, it takes 63 days for neuroplasticity to occur. "It takes 21 days to break down your thoughts and start the building process, but real neuroplasticity happens after 63 days," she says..../

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: Romans 1:20 For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense.

Paul is saying people are without excuse for not believing in God. This point alone shows how Calvinism can't be right.

Reformed theology agrees that people are without excuse for not believing in God. See doctrine of Depravity of Man. Therefore, your point is mute.

Paul is speaking of people who knew about God, yet walked away from him. This also disproves Calvinism.

Reformed theology agrees that people knew of God and walked away. Therefore, your point is mute.
Aside: Find one point where Calvinism is incorrect would not disprove all of Calvinism. I am 100% sure Reformed theology is not perfect. Perhaps you can point us to a better interpretation of scripture, I am all ears. What source do you have that systematizes God's word or is it just your private interpretation that you go to?

Paul says as a result of the decision to forget about God, hearts become darkened, also disproving Calvinism.

Reformed theology does NOT believe hearts "become" darkened. They believe hearts are born darkened. Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3. These verses neither proves or disproves anything except your statement is incorrect. Perhaps a simple issue of verb tense.

Anyway, Paul isn't saying sinners are incapable of realizing their need for God.

Agreed, Paul isn't saying people are incapable of realizing their need for God in Romans 1:20. Now, there are plenty (70+) verses where Paul says people are incapable of seeking God ... Roman 3:11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks [they are incapable] God.

 

[Edward]

Again, despite my request, you have not defined "free will" which makes comprehension difficult. For instance, I believe in free will but I confident it varies from your definition. Anyways, making assertions about an undefined term clouds understanding.

What's hard about understanding free will? The ability to choose for oneself.
I want Apple pie tonight but no vanilla ice cream. Chocolate.
What do I watch on TV? The News or MASH? MASH always wins. Not by God, By Edward. My choice. My free will.

There's your definition. May I note that you demonstrate your own free will in every post you make?

Do you have a scripture to support your claim. Again, define "free will".

I already posted some scriptures. I have set before you life and death, therefore choose life. He is telling us to make the choice with our free will.

Again, who determines what we choice? Prov. 16:9 says it is God determining our choices,

Not so! It says that God directs our steps. It does NOT say that He makes our choices for us.

I can agree that God wants us to have a choice but not in everything.... for example, I didn't choose to have a depraved nature. Again, who determines what we choice? Prov. 16:9 says it is God determining our choices, yet you say it is man using the term FREE WILL which you refuse to define . Like, I can say our decisions are guided by andofraction but if I don't define andofraction then my statement has not foundation.
John 1:12-13 says it God's will that determines if we are born again or not
Proverbs 33:11 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord. ... implying God decides EVERYTHING
.... where are your verses saying we make any decisions free from God ????
.... again, you refuse to define FREE WILL so it's difficult to know what you are talking about

You are over thinking this. Maybe it wont ever make sense to your carnal mind because it is of the Kingdom of God and the carnal mind can not receive such things.

Free will seems obvious to me. I have the ability to be responsible for my own choices. Therefore, I choose Life.

This is a contradiction. God cannot control everything and yet not force Himself on anyone. I will liberally define the term "force" to include making a person do something he does not want to do (i.e. Jonah) and causing a person to do what he wants to do. When it comes to salvation specifically, God regenerates a person causing him to willingly believe and follow. When it comes to disobeying God, God causes it by giving him a depraved nature.

You have not proved a contradiction. Yu have only proven that, we see through a glass darkly for now. Just because there is not 100% understanding does not mean there is a contradiction or that the scripture is wrong. It is not wrong.

You are joshing me! Maybe you want Strawberry ice cream instead of chocolate? Yes it is true that the Lord puts our desires within our heart for us to choose what we want.

So are you saying that you really do not have any choic, that you have to choose Strawberry? Beyond your will?
I'll say it again: You're Joshing me!!

 

[Edward]

Therefore, your point is mute.

Moot.

 

[Edward]

Calvinism smalvinism, the whole debate is moot. The Church age is over Brothers & Sisters. We're coming into the age of Judgement. (Tribulation/last days & all that.)

The Rapture could happen anyday. So it's not even about Calvinism vs protestant or Baptist or whatever. It's about Yeshua now, and a relationship and learning to love. Nothing else.

 

[Fastfredy0]

What's hard about understanding free will? The ability to choose for oneself.

Good, we have a starting point. I think your definition needs to be more objective. What/who determines
1) what your choices are
2) what you decide to choose for point 1
???

Let's assume you are a 4 year old in this example ...
Example of 1: Who determines that when you go to the fridge what will be in it?
Example of 2: Who/what determined if you decided to eat ice cream or a cookie or nothing from the fridge? (that's all you found)

There's your definition. May I note that you demonstrate your own free will in every post you make?

Well, I demonstated a choice, but who or what was it free from? (If anything?)

 

[Fastfredy0]

I already posted some scriptures. I have set before you life and death, therefore choose life.

You demonstrated that you had a choice. You did not show what determined what you ultimately chose. You assume it was you, but the verse does not answer that question. I say God regenerated you thus changing your disposition such that you were saved because that was what you desired most.
Now I assume you are saying ... I don't sense the Spirit changing my heart's desire so I assume it was me so I give myself the credit for the action. The verse does not tell us who determined your action.
I submit that when you find verses that define who was the cause of you making this decision you will see that it was God that determined what you decided to do.

 

[Edward]

Good, we have a starting point. I think your definition needs to be more objective. What/who determines
1) what your choices are
2) what you decide to choose for point 1
???

Let's assume you are a 4 year old in this example ...
Example of 1: Who determines that when you go to the fridge what will be in it?
Example of 2: Who/what determined if you decided to eat ice cream or a cookie or nothing from the fridge? (that's all you found)


Well, I demonstated a choice, but who or what was it free from? (If anything?)

You are over thinking this. There is no third party in free will. Free will means YOU decide which choice to make.

What you decide to choose, is what you choose. No one makes you like Strawberry more than Chocolate. You really do have the ability to choose chocolate or strawberry. If you can not see this, then I suggest you check your pulse. You may have died!

Maybe it was mom & dad's choice to buy strawberry & chocolate? So you tried both and developed a preference for one or the other. There is no determinism. This is free will. To deny that you use free will, is baffling to me.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Not so! It says that God directs our steps. It does NOT say that He makes our choices for us.

re: Prov 16:9 .... I suppose you could take it that way. But, even if the verse only means God presents us with possible choices He is thereby limited your choices. For example, God does not give a person the opportunity to hear of Christ and therefore that person cannot choice to believe in Christ or not believe. God has at least partially determined the person's choice.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Moot.

Yeah, I always blow that word. One would think by now I would get it right. *sigh*

 

[Fastfredy0]

You are over thinking this. There is no third party in free will. Free will means YOU decide which choice to make.

I could be over thinking or you could be under thinking.
There is a reason they call it "free will" and not just "will". "FREE" from what? You won't answer the question so we are at an impasse.

Someone else who overthinks this question had an answer:
Libertarian Free Will is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volitions; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts. Indifference and therefore amorality belongs to Liberty in their notion of it, or that the mind, previous to the act of volition, be in equilibrio (equilibrium in uncertainty).

Augustine had a different answer:
The ability to chose what you desire most at the time.

... anyways, without definition as a foundation one can't go to far ... been interesting.

Got to pick up Mrs. at airport soon ... have a good one

 

[Edward]

You demonstrated that you had a choice. You did not show what determined what you ultimately chose. You assume it was you, but the verse does not answer that question. I say God regenerated you thus changing your disposition such that you were saved because that was what you desired most.
Now I assume you are saying ... I don't sense the Spirit changing my heart's desire so I assume it was me so I give myself the credit for the action. The verse does not tell us who determined your action.
I submit that when you find verses that define who was the cause of you making this decision you will see that it was God that determined what you decided to do.

I do know that it was me that made the choice because I was there, and I have a strong pulse.

Of course the Lord that changes our hearts desires in response to our seeking Him and answering our prayers. That's what He promises to do.

What makes you think that we are autonomous robots? Wouldn't that decrease God's glory because it was not done by free will?

And you would assume wrong to give yourself the credit for the change of heart.

 

[Edward]

I could be over thinking or you could be under thinking.
There is a reason they call it "free will" and not just "will". "FREE" from what? You won't answer the question so we are at an impasse.

No, not at all. You simply would not receive the answer that I gave to you. That is an impasse.

 

[Free]

You are over thinking this. There is no third party in free will. Free will means YOU decide which choice to make.

But who is truly free? The unsaved are slaves to the devil and to sin, and their hearts always prefer darkness and evil. Are they actually free to choose to serve God?

When it comes to things like salvation and morality, it is a false analogy to bring in things like chocolate and strawberry flavors. No one except God has a truly free will.

 

[Edward]

re: Prov 16:9 .... I suppose you could take it that way. But, even if the verse only means God presents us with possible choices He is thereby limited your choices. For example, God does not give a person the opportunity to hear of Christ and therefore that person cannot choice to believe in Christ or not believe. God has at least partially determined the person's choice.

You may have to ask God that one, lol.

God is not the author of confusion. You. Are. Overthinking. This.

You talk like a lawyer but you look like Seinfield. Either way is a routine I guess, lol.

Riddle me this: I love cabbage, ok? But I hate Brussel Sprouts. That is true. But how is that possible?

 

[Edward]

But who is truly free? The unsaved are slaves to the devil and to sin, and their hearts always prefer darkness and evil. Are they actually free to choose to serve God?

When it comes to things like salvation and morality, it is a false analogy to bring in things like chocolate and strawberry flavors. No one except God has a truly free will.

I wondered who was going to bust my chops about the ice cream, lol! Point well taken Brother.

We are not truely free yet, that is the promise of the Bile. God will save us and make us free. Are the unsaved free to choose to serve God? Excellant question!

Let's see here,

Mark 5 I think.

Mark 5:1-20 is the story of the man possessed by a legion of spirits. When Jesus first got off the boat, that man (not the demons) ran to Jesus and began to worship Him. That made the demns mad and they started talking to Jesus trying to cut a deal.

So to answer your question, yes every single person on earth has a chance to make that choice to serve God. He would not have been able to come to the Lord if He did not draw him, but then we decide to make the choice to serve God, or not to. But God is not willing that any should perish. He came into the world to save the world. Not to condemn it.

Like Yoda says, Choose Wisely.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are over thinking this. There is no third party in free will. Free will means YOU decide which choice to make.

What you decide to choose, is what you choose. No one makes you like Strawberry more than Chocolate. You really do have the ability to choose chocolate or strawberry. If you can not see this, then I suggest you check your pulse. You may have died!

Maybe it was mom & dad's choice to buy strawberry & chocolate? So you tried both and developed a preference for one or the other. There is no determinism. This is free will. To deny that you use free will, is baffling to me.

Can't believe this...
It's deflection.
Talk about anything except how God is
UNLOVING
UNMERCIFUL
UNJUST
in calvinist theology.

Continue...
Good night

 

[GodsGrace]

But who is truly free? The unsaved are slaves to the devil and to sin, and their hearts always prefer darkness and evil. Are they actually free to choose to serve God?

Why not?
How do they get to be saved?
CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE.
That's a choice left up to you.

When it comes to things like salvation and morality, it is a false analogy to bring in things like chocolate and strawberry flavors. No one except God has a truly free will.

Does God have free will?
Is He free to sin or cause us to sin?
In calvinist theology the answer is yes.
Every other denomination believes God cannot sin.

 

[Edward]

But I'm not a Calvinist. So I'll stick with the premise that our God is a Loving, Merciful, and Just God. So He Gifted us, Free will so that there is no force. Only Free will.

Sigh...I just burned my cheesecake. It was supposed to be 55 minutes and it was 2 hours.
I think I'm ready for bed too.