In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Fastfredy0]

They follow a theology laid out by John Calvin, believing it to be biblical and you follow your own theology (likely mixed with teachings from others) that you believe to be biblical.

Amen.
Note: Many have compared what Calvin (and Augustine) wrote and compared it to scripture (like the Bereans) and concluded Calvin systematization of scripture was correct. Reformed theology's source of knowledge is the bible just like anyone else.
Aside: maybe someday people will go thru JLB's theology and compare it to the bible and we will have a new teaching called JBLism.

In the end, you either follow your own theology, believing it is the doctrine of Christ,

Yeah, we all do. Some closer to truth than others.

Ben Shapiro - What you want to believe you tend to believe and you tend to look for excuses to believe it.

 

[JLB]

LOL ... .sounds like JLB doesn't believe his own theology. That's confusing. LOL
I'm probably misrepresenting him.

JLB, do you believe your own theology or not?

I don’t have my “own theology”.

I read and believe what the scriptures say.

Can you answer the following questions?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ —


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Do you believe this?

Does Calvinism teach this principle?

 

[JLB]

You claim that you follow Christ and his doctrine--"I read and believe what the scriptures say"--while Calvinists follow Calvin's doctrine.

Ok.

However, John Calvin believed the very same thing as you, except that he wrote volumes about it.

You seem to believe you know a lot.


Now maybe you can answer the questions I asked.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ —


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Do you believe this?

Does Calvinism teach this principle?





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I will just correct this misunderstanding. Jesus had to die for the same reason as you believe. There can be no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood, regardless of whether or not God chooses. The means of salvation does not change. Jesus died to atone for the sins of those who will be saved. If God predestined some to be saved, that does not negate the need for atonement.

Could we hash this out a bit?
If God chooses who will be saved, there was no need for Jesus to die on that cross.
God always required a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, from the Garden and onward.
Why?
Because God is almighty and the sin toward such an almighty being requires a big sacrifice,
in the OT it was animals that had to be slain continuously, and in order to have the one and last sacrifice it had to be a perfect being, a god, because a god was damaged by Adam's sin.

The animals DID have to be sacrificed in the OT as some type of atonement - pick one you like.
And Jesus, both man and God had to be sacrificed in the NT as some type of atonement - pick one you like.

The plan of God, since He knew Adam would fail (Knew NOT predestined as calvinism believes) was to OFFER The Son as an atonement and whoever would believe in Jesus would be a member of the New Covenant and be able to enter into the Kingdom of God, both here on earth now, and also after death in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The kingpin was, of course, belief in Jesus.
He who believes and obeys the Son will have eternal life. John 3:36
In Him was life and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
That which is BORN of the flesh is flesh, and that which is BORN of the spirit is spirit. John 3:6
He who does not believe has been judged already because he has not believed in the Son. John 3:18
Anyone who drinks this water shall never thirst again. John 4:14
You are still UNWILLING to come to Me, that you may have life. John 5:40

The above and many other verses, shows that we must be willing to believe in Jesus in order to be saved.
This is because, through our free will, we choose to believe in Jesus. THIS belief will cause our spirit to be born again through our Lord.

IF God chooses who will be saved, what would be the reason for Jesus to die?
No one has to choose Him. No one has to believe in Him because it's GOD that will choose the saved.

No reason for Jesus to have died.

 

[GodsGrace]

Since this is you belief "Babies are born in sin" . What if a Christian man and Christian woman have a baby . Where would the sin come from that this baby would be in ?

Hawkman, I don't believe babies are born in sin.
Babies are NOT born with any sin.
They are not capable of committing sin and they are not IMPUTED with Adam's sin.
We are only responsible for our own sins.

Galatians 6:5
5For each will have to bear his own load.
2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. . .

 

[jaybo]

Could we hash this out a bit?
If God chooses who will be saved, there was no need for Jesus to die on that cross.
God always required a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, from the Garden and onward.
Why?
Because God is almighty and the sin toward such an almighty being requires a big sacrifice,
in the OT it was animals that had to be slain continuously, and in order to have the one and last sacrifice it had to be a perfect being, a god, because a god was damaged by Adam's sin.

The animals DID have to be sacrificed in the OT as some type of atonement - pick one you like.
And Jesus, both man and God had to be sacrificed in the NT as some type of atonement - pick one you like.

The plan of God, since He knew Adam would fail (Knew NOT predestined as calvinism believes) was to OFFER The Son as an atonement and whoever would believe in Jesus would be a member of the New Covenant and be able to enter into the Kingdom of God, both here on earth now, and also after death in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The kingpin was, of course, belief in Jesus.
He who believes and obeys the Son will have eternal life. John 3:36
In Him was life and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
That which is BORN of the flesh is flesh, and that which is BORN of the spirit is spirit. John 3:6
He who does not believe has been judged already because he has not believed in the Son. John 3:18
Anyone who drinks this water shall never thirst again. John 4:14
You are still UNWILLING to come to Me, that you may have life. John 5:40

The above and many other verses, shows that we must be willing to believe in Jesus in order to be saved.
This is because, through our free will, we choose to believe in Jesus. THIS belief will cause our spirit to be born again through our Lord.

IF God chooses who will be saved, what would be the reason for Jesus to die?
No one has to choose Him. No one has to believe in Him because it's GOD that will choose the saved.

No reason for Jesus to have died.

I don't think that the issue is that God determines who will be saved and who won't (predestination) but that God knows who will respond to the offer of the sacrifice of His son and who will not. It is still up to the individual person to accept Jesus' death on their behalf.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As usual, no scripture to back up what you say.

Ezekiel 18:20

It doesn't get any clearer than this.

 

[Free]

Ok.


You seem to believe you know a lot.

It's just common sense. No one believes something that they don't believe to be true. To say otherwise is nonsense. So, you believe that what you believe is what the Bible teaches. And, the same goes for everyone else, including Calvinists who have matched what Calvin said with what the Bible says.

In other words, to think that you believe what the Bible teaches and Calvinists don't, is plainly false and misrepresenting their beliefs.

Now maybe you can answer the questions I asked.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ —


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Do you believe this?

Does Calvinism teach this principle?

That all depends on what you're asking. If you're simply asking do they believe what the Bible says, then yes, obviously. But it should be pointed out that 1 John 3:24 speaks of the evidence of one who abides in Christ, not "how we are instructed to remain in Christ." You are making it say that our works save us, which is most certainly not the case, and Calvinists would rightly reject that understanding.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think he acknowledges the doctrine of the age of accountability. Which is contrary to the doctrine of infants being imputed sin guilt from birth. A baby can't have sin guilt reckoned to him until 1) he sins (Romans 5:12), and 2) he reaches the age of accountability (Romans 7:9). Fastfredy0 is going to have to make a choice between the two doctrines because they can't co-exist.

I don't believe calvinists agree with either 1 or 2.
They believe God does all the choosing.
They believe we are born dead, depraved, and unable to seek God.
They believe babies go to hell - those that are reprobate.
The whole system is anti-Christian.

 

[Free]

Could we hash this out a bit?
If God chooses who will be saved, there was no need for Jesus to die on that cross.
God always required a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, from the Garden and onward.
Why?
Because God is almighty and the sin toward such an almighty being requires a big sacrifice,
in the OT it was animals that had to be slain continuously, and in order to have the one and last sacrifice it had to be a perfect being, a god, because a god was damaged by Adam's sin.

The animals DID have to be sacrificed in the OT as some type of atonement - pick one you like.
And Jesus, both man and God had to be sacrificed in the NT as some type of atonement - pick one you like.

The plan of God, since He knew Adam would fail (Knew NOT predestined as calvinism believes) was to OFFER The Son as an atonement and whoever would believe in Jesus would be a member of the New Covenant and be able to enter into the Kingdom of God, both here on earth now, and also after death in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The kingpin was, of course, belief in Jesus.
He who believes and obeys the Son will have eternal life. John 3:36
In Him was life and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
That which is BORN of the flesh is flesh, and that which is BORN of the spirit is spirit. John 3:6
He who does not believe has been judged already because he has not believed in the Son. John 3:18
Anyone who drinks this water shall never thirst again. John 4:14
You are still UNWILLING to come to Me, that you may have life. John 5:40

The above and many other verses, shows that we must be willing to believe in Jesus in order to be saved.
This is because, through our free will, we choose to believe in Jesus. THIS belief will cause our spirit to be born again through our Lord.

IF God chooses who will be saved, what would be the reason for Jesus to die?
No one has to choose Him. No one has to believe in Him because it's GOD that will choose the saved.

No reason for Jesus to have died.

Again, sin is the reason for Jesus to have died, regardless of whether or not God chooses. Without the death and resurrection of Christ, salvation would not be possible. That is, God choosing who will believe the gospel and be saved doesn't even factor into the equation.

While some of the verses you provide show that one must believe in Jesus in order to be saved, that believing doesn't preclude God's choice. They simply say one must believe.

 

[Free]

I don't believe calvinists agree with either 1 or 2.
They believe God does all the choosing.
They believe we are born dead, depraved, and unable to seek God.
They believe babies go to hell - those that are reprobate.
The whole system is anti-Christian.

Please, don't violate the ToS. Interestingly, I came across these quotes today, by Paul David Tripp:

"Standing for what you are convinced is right does not give you permission to question the thinking and integrity of the person who has taken another position."

"Theology, properly understood and lived, will never produce meanness, misogyny, disrespect, mockery, or cruelty of any kind, ever. It produces just the opposite."

 

[JLB]

It's just common sense. No one believes something that they don't believe to be true. To say otherwise is nonsense. So, you believe that what you believe is what the Bible teaches. And, the same goes for everyone else, including Calvinists who have matched what Calvin said with what the Bible says.

In other words, to think that you believe what the Bible teaches and Calvinists don't, is plainly false and misrepresenting their beliefs.


That all depends on what you're asking. If you're simply asking do they believe what the Bible says, then yes, obviously. But it should be pointed out that 1 John 3:24 speaks of the evidence of one who abides in Christ, not "how we are instructed to remain in Christ." You are making it say that our works save us, which is most certainly not the case, and Calvinists would rightly reject that understanding.

Im not “making it say” anything.

It’s a simple matter of reading and believing what the verse says.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

The person who keeps His commandments, remains in Him.

Very simple.


Does Calvinism teach this?





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Please, don't violate the ToS. Interestingly, I came across these quotes today, by Paul David Tripp:

"Standing for what you are convinced is right does not give you permission to question the thinking and integrity of the person who has taken another position."

"Theology, properly understood and lived, will never produce meanness, misogyny, disrespect, mockery, or cruelty of any kind, ever. It produces just the opposite."

Try this, and then I really have to leave.
We believe the JWs are anti-Christian.
This is not mean.
Anti just means that they are not.
And you'd have to agree.

There's a lot of writing and talking, etc. about the reformed faith.
Some theologians believe they are teaching a different gospel.
Some believe they are not really Christian because they only thing we have in common is Jesus.
The JWs also believe in Jesus - just not like Christians do.

So I'm not being mean.
Just stating what the thinking is.
I mean, I can't think of anything we agree on !
Please reply .. don't know if I'll be able to answer tonight.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please, don't violate the ToS. Interestingly, I came across these quotes today, by Paul David Tripp:

"Standing for what you are convinced is right does not give you permission to question the thinking and integrity of the person who has taken another position."

"Theology, properly understood and lived, will never produce meanness, misogyny, disrespect, mockery, or cruelty of any kind, ever. It produces just the opposite."

Wait. Maybe I meant non-Christian, instead of anti-christian.
Sorry.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, sin is the reason for Jesus to have died, regardless of whether or not God chooses. Without the death and resurrection of Christ, salvation would not be possible. That is, God choosing who will believe the gospel and be saved doesn't even factor into the equation.

While some of the verses you provide show that one must believe in Jesus in order to be saved, that believing doesn't preclude God's choice. They simply say one must believe.

I know these ideas Free.
You believe the verses are descriptive and not prescriptive.
Hard to debate that.

I do want to say, though, that if God does the choosing, Jesus did not have to die.
On this I insist.
Why would salvation not be possible?
If God PREDETERMINED and CAUSED Adam to sin....
there goes your sacrificial plan and theology.
No need for it.
Is this not easy to see?

It'll only work (the plan and soteriology) if Adam DISOBEYED GOD
and broke God's command.
At this point God is damaged as a sovereign king and requires atonement.
The atonement is Jesus (animals in the OT).

Why would God MAKE ADAM SIN,
and then require atonement?
Is it all a game?
I'm not being mean when I say that the reformed faith just makes no sense to me.
And I've been thinking about it for over 10 years now. I remember when I first heard about it,
I couldn't believe the teaching and thought the person that told me about it had misunderstood.
But alas, he had it right.

 

[jaybo]

Hawkman, I don't believe babies are born in sin.
Babies are NOT born with any sin.
They are not capable of committing sin and they are not IMPUTED with Adam's sin.
We are only responsible for our own sins.

Galatians 6:5
5For each will have to bear his own load.
2 Corinthians 5:10
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. . .

Those are nice thoughts but ... they're not Biblical. All humans since Adam are born with a sin nature -- with one obvious exception. Romans 5:12-14, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned -- for sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam, who is a pattern of the one who was to come."

1 Corinthians 15:21-22, "For since death came through a human, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human, for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ."

There is nothing in either of these sections of God's word that excludes babies. Unfortunate, but that is the truth.

Ezekiel 18:20 begins " The person who sins shall die". But Romans 3:22b-23 says, "For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Putting these two verses together, all have sinned and all shall die (a physical death). Those who have accepted Jesus will physically die but will have eternal (spiritual) life with Him in heaven. And those who have heard of Jesus and salvation and refuse God's offer will also have eternal life -- in torment!

I don't know what happens with babies and children before they reach the age of full awareness (roughly thirteen). It says that all have sinned because they have Adam's sin nature and therefore will die a death like his. Again, I don't know, but wishful thinking isn't the answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Those are nice thoughts but ... they're not Biblical. All humans since Adam are born with a sin nature -- with one obvious exception. Romans 5:12-14, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned -- for sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam, who is a pattern of the one who was to come."

1 Corinthians 15:21-22, "For since death came through a human, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human, for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ."

There is nothing in either of these sections of God's word that excludes babies. Unfortunate, but that is the truth.

Ezekiel 18:20 begins " The person who sins shall die". But Romans 3:22b-23 says, "For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Putting these two verses together, all have sinned and all shall die (a physical death). Those who have accepted Jesus will physically die but will have eternal (spiritual) life with Him in heaven. And those who have heard of Jesus and salvation and refuse God's offer will also have eternal life -- in torment!

I don't know what happens with babies and children before they reach the age of full awareness (roughly thirteen). It says that all have sinned because they have Adam's sin nature and therefore will die a death like his. Again, I don't know, but wishful thinking isn't the answer.

JAYBO!
We're all born with the sin nature.
Agreed!

But that's different than being born with sin.


My throat is getting dry....

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen.
Note: Many have compared what Calvin (and Augustine) wrote and compared it to scripture (like the Bereans) and concluded Calvin systematization of scripture was correct. Reformed theology's source of knowledge is the bible just like anyone else.
Aside: maybe someday people will go thru JLB's theology and compare it to the bible and we will have a new teaching called JBLism.


Yeah, we all do. Some closer to truth than others.

Ben Shapiro - What you want to believe you tend to believe and you tend to look for excuses to believe it.

It's easy to compare it to scripture. (the way you do it).

Every single command that is prescribing what a person must do to become saved
gets understood as A CONDITION of the saved person.

If it's just the CONDITION of a saved person, why even bring it up?
Why should Jesus have gone around Israel for over 3 years and end up dead on a cross
because He was JUST EXPLAINING what a saved person LOOKS LIKE...

when all the while He was TEACHING PEOPLE what they MUST DO to become saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen.
Note: Many have compared what Calvin (and Augustine) wrote and compared it to scripture (like the Bereans) and concluded Calvin systematization of scripture was correct. Reformed theology's source of knowledge is the bible just like anyone else.
Aside: maybe someday people will go thru JLB's theology and compare it to the bible and we will have a new teaching called JBLism.


Yeah, we all do. Some closer to truth than others.

Ben Shapiro - What you want to believe you tend to believe and you tend to look for excuses to believe it.

And AUGUSTINE.

The ONLY church father that believed in persons being predestined to life or damnation,
and he came along 400 years after Jesus.

And he was a gnostic manachaen for 10 years before joining the Christian religion - and bringing some of his gnosticism along with him.

In fact, many theologians today believe calvinism is a gnostic religion.
(personally, I wouldn't know).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Oops