In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[hawkman]

A poet from NJ wrote this .

In the Bible brother Cain slew Abel
And East of Eden mama he was cast
You're born into this life paying
For the sins of somebody else's past

Daddy worked his whole life for nothing but the pain
Now he walks these empty rooms looking for something to blame
But you inherit the sins, you inherit the flames

Adam raised a Cain
Adam raised a Cain
Adam raised a Cain
Adam raised a Cain

 

[JLB]

If you have something of substance to actually add to the discussion, feel free to do so, but trolling violates the ToS.

I stated my observations that I have witnessed over the years, in discussing this doctrine with Calvinist’s.

Most who cling to Calvinism ignore the words of scripture, because their theology is based in the teachings of man. (My observation)


Jesus warned us to remain in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how we are instructed, by this same John, to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Believing the Gospel and becoming saved, is a choice.

Remaining in Christ is a choice.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are all people born good?​

https://www.gotquestions.org/born-good.html

Aside: you should go to this non-reformed site to help you figure things out. Note: They back up what they say with verses.
Good Luck

What's to figure out?
Simple observation shows us babies just exist. They don't lie, they don't commit adultery, they don't steal, they don't worship idols, etc. But despite this obvious fact Calvinism has assigned guilt to a creature that can't do anything to incur that sin guilt. The potential to eventually sin - the part we inherited from Adam - does not constitute present guilt.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Mark 10:18 “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.

One verse says "no one is righteous" and another says there are righteous people.
One verse says some men are "good" and another says no one is good but God.

Assuming God doesn't contradict himself ... I leave it to you to unravel this conundrum. My advice is to look at some commentaries ... good luck

There's nothing to unravel here.

'Good' is not being used to denote 'righteous' in Romans 5:7. We know that because Paul is contrasting 'good' with 'righteous' in that verse and using it describe the man who is not righteous but rather 'good'. Meanwhile, 'good' is being used to denote 'righteous' in Mark 10:18. We know that because in that verse Jesus is using 'good' to describe God. No conundrum here, FF.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One verse says "no one is righteous" and another says there are righteous people.

Which verse are you referring to that says there are righteous people?

No one is righteous in and of themselves. There are people made righteous by their faith in God's testimony about himself, whether that be through nature, conscience, or the written or spoken words of scripture. The mistake is to think the proverbial Amazonian from the 1200's who will be acquitted before God at the resurrection was somehow righteous in and of himself. No. He is righteous because he responded in faith commensurate with the limited revelation of God he received through nature and conscience. For him Hebrews 11:6 is indeed the faith by which he is justified. He lacks the knowledge of the law and the gospel for him to be made righteous through faith in God's promise of a son, as Abraham and you are I are made righteous.

 

[GodsGrace]

Since this is you belief "Babies are born in sin" . What if a Christian man and Christian woman have a baby . Where would the sin come from that this baby would be in ?

Since Fastfredy0 believes babies are born as having sin imputed to them,
I do hope he also believes in infant baptism so the sin can be removed, and the baby could go to heaven should he die.

But, praise the Lord, who is loving, merciful and just, babies are Not born with any sin accounted to them,,,since they have not Committed any sin!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since Fastfredy0 believes babies are born as having sin imputed to them,
I do hope he also believes in infant baptism so the sin can be removed, and the baby could go to heaven should he die.

But, praise the Lord, who is loving, merciful and just, babies are Not born with any sin accounted to them,,,since they have not Committed any sin!

I think he acknowledges the doctrine of the age of accountability. Which is contrary to the doctrine of infants being imputed sin guilt from birth. A baby can't have sin guilt reckoned to him until 1) he sins (Romans 5:12), and 2) he reaches the age of accountability (Romans 7:9). Fastfredy0 is going to have to make a choice between the two doctrines because they can't co-exist.

 

[Free]

I stated my observations that I have witnessed over the years, in discussing this doctrine with Calvinist’s.

Most who cling to Calvinism ignore the words of scripture, because their theology is based in the teachings of man. (My observation)


Jesus warned us to remain in Him.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Here is how we are instructed, by this same John, to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Believing the Gospel and becoming saved, is a choice.

Remaining in Christ is a choice.




JLB

Then it can be argued that most Arminianists ignore the words of Scripture and all theology is based on the teachings of men, whether one’s own or from others. Such arguments get us nowhere.

These discussions will always be pointless and fruitless.

 

[Free]

A baby can't have sin guilt reckoned to him until 1) he sins (Romans 5:12),

Which is around what age, one? Maybe a bit less? Do they have to be aware they’re sinning?

and 2) he reaches the age of accountability (Romans 7:9).

What does Rom 7:9 have to do with an “age of accountability”? What is this age?

 

[JLB]

Then it can be argued that most Arminianists ignore the words of Scripture and all theology is based on the teachings of men,

I wouldn’t know, since I’m not an Arminian, nor do I know what they believe.

I would suspect that anyone who labels and identifies themselves with a man or denomination or organization, subscribes to the beliefs of that person, denomination or organization.

Example: Jehovah’s Witnesses believe and practice as well as promote the teachings of the Watch Tower organization.


I personally identify as a Christian, a follower of Christ and His doctrine.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


If you choose to believe and follow the teachings of Calvinism then that is your choice.




JLB

 

[Free]

I wouldn’t know, since I’m not an Arminian, nor do I know what they believe.

I would suspect that anyone who labels and identifies themselves with a man or denomination or organization, subscribes to the beliefs of that person, denomination or organization.

Example: Jehovah’s Witnesses believe and practice as well as promote the teachings of the Watch Tower organization.


I personally identify as a Christian, a follower of Christ and His doctrine.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


If you choose to believe and follow the teachings of Calvinism then that is your choice.




JLB

So, you believe your own theology then. How is that actually any different? John Calvin believed, as a follower of a Christ and his doctrine, that he was laying out the doctrine of Christ in a cohesive manner for others to understand. He was no different than you in that respect.

As I stated, such arguments get us nowhere because everyone believes h the same.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which is around what age, one? Maybe a bit less? Do they have to be aware they’re sinning?

I don't know exactly the age. Perhaps it's around when they start strong arming Alphabet Blocks and Lincoln Logs from other kids. But even then it still it is not reckoned to them, having not reached the age of accountabilty, yet. The time at which they can understand right from wrong and have sufficient capability to reject the wrong they are now aware of, that is when a child is condemned by his sin. His sin, not someone else's.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What does Rom 7:9 have to do with an “age of accountability”? What is this age?

It shows that a person was 'once alive' having not been condemned yet by the knowledge of good and evil that they do not have yet. A knowledge that eventually comes through the 'Thou Shalt Nots' of the Law and which condemns them as sinners when they violate it, not before. Romans 7:9, Romans 5:12

I'm sure the age of accountability varies. I personally know now in hindsight that I 'died' in the 9th grade. That is when I purposely started sinning with knowledge and accoutability. I was doing it on purpose, knowing full well it was wrong, and was responsible for the decision to do it. Boom! I died.

 

[JLB]

So, you believe your own theology then.

Please stop misrepresenting what I said.


Again, here is what I plainly said —


I personally identify as a Christian, a follower of Christ and His doctrine.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


If you choose to believe and follow the teachings of Calvinism then that is your choice.


I read and believe what the scriptures say.

Example:

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ —


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Do you believe this?

Does Calvinism teach this principle?




JLB

 

[Free]

It shows that a person was 'once alive' having not been condemned yet by the knowledge of good and evil that they do not have yet. A knowledge that eventually comes through the 'Thou Shalt Nots' of the Law and which condemns them as sinners when they violate it, not before. Romans 7:9, Romans 5:12

I'm sure the age of accountability varies. I personally know now in hindsight that I 'died' in the 9th grade. That is when I purposely started sinning with knowledge and accoutability. I was doing it on purpose, knowing full well it was wrong, and was responsible for the decision to do it. Boom! I died.

So, how does this not exclude those who never heard anything about the Law or the gospel?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, how does this not exclude those who never heard anything about the Law or the gospel?

Because for them the knowledge of God and accountabilty to God comes through his testimony that he has given to them through nature and the inner voice of conscience. It's a limited knowledge and accountability but a knowledge and accountability sufficient to either condemn or acquit the person who has never heard the law and the gospel promise of a Son. Romans 2:13-16.

The written law INCREASED the knowledge of God and sin and the responsibility of man far and above that which is revealed solely through nature and conscience to those who do not have the law. It did not introduce it (Romans 7:13, Romans 5:20). And so those, too (nature and conscience), are vehicles through which man is reckoned guilty for his sin when he commits it, not before, and makes him accountable for it.

 

[Free]

Please stop misrepresenting what I said.


Again, here is what I plainly said —


I personally identify as a Christian, a follower of Christ and His doctrine.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


If you choose to believe and follow the teachings of Calvinism then that is your choice.


I read and believe what the scriptures say.

Example:

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ —


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Do you believe this?

Does Calvinism teach this principle?




JLB

I didn't misrepresent you, rather, you don't understand my point. You claim that you follow Christ and his doctrine--"I read and believe what the scriptures say"--while Calvinists follow Calvin's doctrine.

However, John Calvin believed the very same thing as you, except that he wrote volumes about it. Calvinists believe that he gave an accurate representation of what the Bible states and continue to study the Bible. So, they are no different than you and "read and believe what the scriptures say." They follow a theology laid out by John Calvin, believing it to be biblical and you follow your own theology (likely mixed with teachings from others) that you believe to be biblical.

In the end, you either follow your own theology, believing it is the doctrine of Christ, or you (everyone) follow the teachings of others, believing it is the doctrine of Christ, or a combination of both. So, as I initially pointed out, such arguments get us nowhere.

 

[hawkman]

Disagreeing with John Calvin can be deadly ! Should we be worried Jethro Bodine , wondering ?
The Sad Story of Michael Servetus and John Calvin

Michael Servetus

"At his trial, Servetus was condemned on two counts for spreading and preaching Nontrinitarianism, specifically, Modalistic Monarchianism (or Sabellianism) and anti-paedobaptism (anti-infant baptism).[32] Of paedobaptism Servetus had said, "It is an invention of the devil, an infernal falsity for the destruction of all Christianity."

Michael Servetus, burned at the stake on top of a pyre of his own books .

 

[Fastfredy0]

What's to figure out?
Simple observation shows us babies just exist. They don't lie, they don't commit adultery, they don't steal, they don't worship idols, etc. But despite this obvious fact Calvinism has assigned guilt to a creature that can't do anything to incur that sin guilt. The potential to eventually sin - the part we inherited from Adam - does not constitute present guilt.

As usual, no scripture to back up what you say.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So, you believe your own theology then.

Please stop misrepresenting what I said.

LOL ... .sounds like JLB doesn't believe his own theology. That's confusing. LOL
I'm probably misrepresenting him.

JLB, do you believe your own theology or not?