In Christianity, Is anybody ever wrong?

[Cnkw3]

The question has to be asked not if one believes but WHAT one believes. You see, all the US cults use scripture. They claim they believe the scripture. So what they believe is very important, not that they believed.

I agree with this totally. It does matter WHAT one believes.

He man was already rich but it’s true he valued his power and possessions. The commandment about coveting are specifically about another’s man’s wife or possessions. In any case, neither Paul nor Peter used scripture to measure a man’s heart. Solomon also not. But that’s an interesting take on those verses.

I do not agree with this part. First, Jesus gives us a glimpse of what he sees as covetousness through a parable in Lk 12 : 15-21. I think it includes more then wanting what your neighbor has.

second, we are told in the Colossians exactly what covetousness is..
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Colossians 3:5
To covet is to put self before God. I have to have what I want and no god is going to tell me different. It is not restricted to your neighbors goods.

I again do think that the scripture was used to judge people.
We are commanded to “judge righteous judgement”. Jn 7:24 How do we do that? We compare what people are doing to what the Bible teaches and we can do that because…..all thy commandments are righteousness”. Ps 119:172
Paul judged Peter by this very thing..
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Galatians 2:11-14
What was the basis of Paul’s rebuke? They didnt walk according to the truth of the gospel. Some people will teach that the “gospel” is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus and that is all, but this passage proves otherwise. The “gospel” is the good news of human redemption through Jesus Christ and this redemption includes not only what he did but what he taught. That’s why we have passages like 2 jn 9. In order to have God you must abide in the doctrine (or teaching) of Christ. Paul could rebuke peter because the “gospel” teaches that we should no longer have any prejudices in our life. The “gospel“ teaches that there is no more Jew or gentile, bond or free, male or female. We are all one “in christ”. Gal 3:28

 

[Cnkw3]

Didn't you read the entire passage?

You gotta talking about 1 Corinthians 13:8-10
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Prophecies will fail..
Tongues will cease.
knowledge will vanish...

But when that which is perfect is come...they will be done away.

Is that which is perfect, has it come yet? That's easy one, NO!!! But why didn't they say healings will cease? Or casting out of demons cease? Or raising the dead? I guess those thigs never ceased.

Prophecying will cease, because that which is perfect has come and fulfilled them all!
Tongues will cease because that which is perfect has come and He'll make the entire earth one language again.
Knowledge will cease because that which is perfect has come and revealed to us all things.

That's what that passage means. None of the gifts ever ceased.

The passage says….when “that“ ( it doesnt say he) which is perfect is come. I think that is important in this passage if Paul wanted everybody to understand that he actually meant Christ he could have settled it by using the little word “He”. But he didnt.
It also doesn’t say “come again”. Jesus had already come. He was and is and always will be “perfect”. But the word ”perfect” here just means “complete” or “mature”. When the completed revelation has come then the “part” or the miraculous gifts will no longer be needed. James even it called it…”the perfect law of liberty.”
Paul said….
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
The word of God is profitable for…
Doctrine….tells us what is right
reproof…..tells us when we are wrong
corection….tells us how to get right
instruction in righteousness…..tells us how to stay right.
And all of this can make the man of God “perfect” or complete.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree with this totally. It does matter WHAT one believes.

I do not agree with this part. First, Jesus gives us a glimpse of what he sees as covetousness through a parable in Lk 12 : 15-21. I think it includes more then wanting what your neighbor has.

But that is the commandment. Do not covet your neighbor’s something/someone. Jesus left out other commandments too in his list to the young ruler. I believe He only listed 5 of the ten.

second, we are told in the Colossians exactly what covetousness is..
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Colossians 3:5
To covet is to put self before God. I have to have what I want and no god is going to tell me different. It is not restricted to your neighbors goods.

Ah, now this is a good point I hadn’t considered before. A love of things is idolatry. A very good awareness. I still think coveting is your neighbor’s, but idolatry can include your legimate stuff but is not limited to possessions. I think the man had idols, a new thought. Thank you.

I again do think that the scripture was used to judge people.
We are commanded to “judge righteous judgement”. Jn 7:24 How do we do that? We compare what people are doing to what the Bible teaches and we can do that because…..all thy commandments are righteousness”. Ps 119:172
Paul judged Peter by this very thing..
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Galatians 2:11-14
What was the basis of Paul’s rebuke?

Yes, I agree but not only. Solomon did not use scripture to discern the women’s hearts. Neither Peter nor Paul used scripture on occasion. The Bible isn’t the sum of all wisdom in the world.

They didnt walk according to the truth of the gospel. Some people will teach that the “gospel” is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus and that is all, but this passage proves otherwise. The “gospel” is the good news of human redemption through Jesus Christ and this redemption includes not only what he did but what he taught. That’s why we have passages like 2 jn 9. In order to have God you must abide in the doctrine (or teaching) of Christ. Paul could rebuke peter because the “gospel” teaches that we should no longer have any prejudices in our life. The “gospel“ teaches that there is no more Jew or gentile, bond or free, male or female. We are all one “in christ”. Gal 3:28

Super! I agree and nicely put. Been thinking about this myself.

 

[Edward]

The passage says….when “that“ ( it doesnt say he) which is perfect is come. I think that is important in this passage if Paul wanted everybody to understand that he actually meant Christ he could have settled it by using the little word “He”. But he didnt.

That's because he isn't talking about Christ directly. He spoke when "that" which is perfect is come. And scripture tells us that Jesus will not be coming alone and empty handed. He will bring, His Bride, the Saints, many of the Angels of the Kingdom of God, and He will also bring "that perfection" That he both has and is. It sounds like most of the entire Kingdom of God is coming with Christ. He not only comes for the redemption of the earths people, but He is going to set the earth right again. He will bring perfection to the earth once more.

So I guess my point is, you can't have perfection without Christ. Am I right?

 

[Edward]

It doesn't say the earth will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye, that's what happens to the people. The earth's repair may take awhile, and He will probably bring some supplies for that remodel job.

We all want jobs during the Millenium, right? I do!

 

[Cnkw3]

The Bible isn’t the sum of all wisdom in the world.

There is only two sources of wisdom in this world. From God and from man. Just be careful you are not relying mans wisdom, especially in spiritual matters. Paul talked a good bit about this..
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Corinthians 1:19-21
He continues through the next chapter too. True wisdom extends from Gods word and not from mans ideas.

 

[Edward]

There is only two sources of wisdom in this world. From God and from man. Just be careful you are not relying mans wisdom, especially in spiritual matters. Paul talked a good bit about this..
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Corinthians 1:19-21
He continues through the next chapter too. True wisdom extends from Gods word and not from mans ideas.

I agree with this.

A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education
-Teddy Roosevelt

“I thoroughly believe in a university education…but I believe a knowledge of the Bible without a college course is more valuable than a college course without the Bible. Everyone who has a thorough knowledge of the Bible may truly be called educated.”
– Dr. Wm. Lyon Phelps, Yale University

 

[Cnkw3]

That's because he isn't talking about Christ directly. He spoke when "that" which is perfect is come. And scripture tells us that Jesus will not be coming alone and empty handed. He will bring, His Bride, the Saints, many of the Angels of the Kingdom of God, and He will also bring "that perfection" That he both has and is. It sounds like most of the entire Kingdom of God is coming with Christ. He not only comes for the redemption of the earths people, but He is going to set the earth right again. He will bring perfection to the earth once more.

So I guess my point is, you can't have perfection without Christ. Am I right?

I do not believe Christ is coming back to do anything on this earth. He is coming back for final judgment. This world will be destroyed and the faithful will be taken to their eternal abode..

 

[eddif]

I do not believe Christ is coming back to do anything on this earth. He is coming back for final judgment. This world will be destroyed and the faithful will be taken to their eternal abode..

Revelation 21:1 kjv
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Punishment for one group - eternal life with God for the other.

Some seem to rank punishment above salvation.

Some seem to rank salvation above all else.

The Gospel (good news) is that there is a solution to eternal absence from God.

Our? Job is to teach it all.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There is only two sources of wisdom in this world. From God and from man. Just be careful you are not relying mans wisdom, especially in spiritual matters. Paul talked a good bit about this..
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Corinthians 1:19-21
He continues through the next chapter too. True wisdom extends from Gods word and not from mans ideas.

What scripture did Solomon use?

Actually, the fear of the Lord (not the Bible) is the beginning of wisdom. Do you need that verse?

 

[Cnkw3]

What scripture did Solomon use?

Actually, the fear of the Lord (not the Bible) is the beginning of wisdom. Do you need that verse?

So you prayed for wisdom and God literally and I mean LITERALLY answered you and not only told you that you would be the wisest person in the world (God given) but you would be the wealthiest? Lucky you! I didnt realize you and God were so close.
You don’t fear the Lord and I know this because you argue against plain Biblical teaching which must mean you don’t believe he means what he actually says.

 

[Cnkw3]

Revelation 21:1 kjv
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Punishment for one group - eternal life with God for the other.

Some seem to rank punishment above salvation.

Some seem to rank salvation above all else.

The Gospel (good news) is that there is a solution to eternal absence from God.

Our? Job is to teach it all.

eddif

So everything in Revelation is literal?

 

[eddif]

So everything in Revelation is literal?

I feel comfortable saying yes. The literal happens, but there is always a higher order thought attached to the concrete.

In our natural physical life, the influence of things can wreck us emotionally, socially and maybe even spiritually.

In Christ and Christ in us all these things take on less influence. Jesus was crucified, Paul was stoned and beaten. Covid may wreck some people spiritually. If I were to die it just is not now a big deal, because the first death is really nothing. Seperation from God for eternity is the big issue to avoid.

Turn things around. Find the spiritual symbol and figure out the natural less important thing. As an infant Jesus faced death if found. The dragon killed many children, but he and his mother were protected in Egypt.

For every physical action or item there is a spiritual lesson. Jesus taught in parables so that a physical lesson hides a spiritual truth. Matthew 13 and Mark 4 tell why Jesus taught in parables.

Ask it another way if I did not give an understandable answer.

eddif

 

[Cnkw3]

I feel comfortable saying yes. The literal happens, but there is always a higher order thought attached to the concrete.

In our natural physical life, the influence of things can wreck us emotionally, socially and maybe even spiritually.

In Christ and Christ in us all these things take on less influence. Jesus was crucified, Paul was stoned and beaten. Covid may wreck some people spiritually. If I were to die it just is not now a big deal, because the first death is really nothing. Seperation from God for eternity is the big issue to avoid.

Turn things around. Find the spiritual symbol and figure out the natural less important thing. As an infant Jesus faced death if found. The dragon killed many children, but he and his mother were protected in Egypt.

For every physical action or item there is a spiritual lesson. Jesus taught in parables so that a physical lesson hides a spiritual truth. Matthew 13 and Mark 4 tell why Jesus taught in parables.

Ask it another way if I did not give an understandable answer.

eddif

No. I don’t understand what you just said. Hear is what I mean. When it comes to Bible understanding I believe we need to take the Bible literally until the context demands otherwise. Here is an example….
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Revelation 1:1
The very first verse of Revelation sets up the entire book. First, God SHOWED John things that MUST SHORTLY come to pass. So, whatever He was about to show John through these images were things that would SHORTLY come to pass. Not some 2000 years later.
Second, we see that he SIGNIFIED it by his angel. He used SIGNS to get his message across. These signs are not literal. They are figurative items that have a meaning behind them. We might not totally know the meaning but I can assure you the 7 churches in Asia that this book was written too would have understood.

So, the book of revelation needs to be taken figuratively unless the context demands the opposite. No. Revelation is NOT to be read literally.
For instance…In Rev 2:10 the church in Smyrna was told that they would have tribulation 10 days. This is not literal. There is no reason to think this church would have an exact 10 day tribulation. We see different numbers in the book of revelation and I think that, because of that first verse, we need to take these numbers as figurative rather than literal. 10 being a small number where 1000 being a much larger greater number having more meaning like when it says that they would reign with Christ for 1000 years. 10 is small meaning it won’t be long where 1000 is large saying it would be a very long reign with Christ. These numbers are not to be taken literally.

 

[eddif]

No. I don’t understand what you just said. Hear is what I mean. When it comes to Bible understanding I believe we need to take the Bible literally until the context demands otherwise. Here is an example….
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Revelation 1:1
The very first verse of Revelation sets up the entire book. First, God SHOWED John things that MUST SHORTLY come to pass. So, whatever He was about to show John through these images were things that would SHORTLY come to pass. Not some 2000 years later.
Second, we see that he SIGNIFIED it by his angel. He used SIGNS to get his message across. These signs are not literal. They are figurative items that have a meaning behind them. We might not totally know the meaning but I can assure you the 7 churches in Asia that this book was written too would have understood.

So, the book of revelation needs to be taken figuratively unless the context demands the opposite. No. Revelation is NOT to be read literally.
For instance…In Rev 2:10 the church in Smyrna was told that they would have tribulation 10 days. This is not literal. There is no reason to think this church would have an exact 10 day tribulation. We see different numbers in the book of revelation and I think that, because of that first verse, we need to take these numbers as figurative rather than literal. 10 being a small number where 1000 being a much larger greater number having more meaning like when it says that they would reign with Christ for 1000 years. 10 is small meaning it won’t be long where 1000 is large saying it would be a very long reign with Christ. These numbers are not to be taken literally.

2 Peter 3:8 kjv
8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If an angel from God says shortly come to pass, shortly to God may be 3000 years. Shortly to us may seem different between even humans.

If a day is a year time is still relative.
eddif

 

[Cnkw3]

2 Peter 3:8 kjv
8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If an angel from God says shortly come to pass, shortly to God may be 3000 years. Shortly to us may seem different between even humans.

If a day is a year time is still relative.
eddif

That’s a perfect example. 1000 years above is not literal. He is not saying that 1 day with the Lord is a literal 1000 years. this is a figurative statement telling us that God is timeless. With God it doesn’t matter, he doesn’t work off of time like we do he is eternal.
‘The book of revelation was written to humans who operate in time so when we as humans are told of something happening soon or shortly then we can look for it in a short period of time. why would a letter specifically directed to certain churches 2000 years ago have a fulfillment 2000+ years later. Why would they care about that? It wont help then any. Now if the letter was dealing with persecution and a dealing with that persecution a few years later then it would be of comfort to them and something they could look forward too.