What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

In Today's News

Michael74 said:
This is an example of what children are being taught to do in active shooter situations:

Click to expand...

Not bad, and certainly better than nothing. Notice how the kids gang-rushed the mock perp in the drill at 4:40? That's GREAT and guaranteed to work, but after the first 3 kids attack everybody else is instructed to run away. That is WRONG. The situation isn't under control yet, and the perp might still cause problems. 3 people isn't enough to implement this strategy, and you don't stop while the perp is still able to move.

There's also a better way to barricade a door made by a HS senior in WI. It works on any door that opens inward.
 
Razeontherock said:
That's GREAT and guaranteed to work, but after the first 3 kids attack everybody else is instructed to run away.
Click to expand...

It not guaranteed, especially if its an assault rifle modified for rapid fire, and the shooter knows what he is doing. They instruct the majority to run away because they don't have much confidence that 3 young girls closest to the shooter can actually stop the shooter. Just delay and distract him for a short period, enabling the majority to escape. Same with throwing books at the shooter. The books won't stop him, but may spoil his aim a bit, allowing additional students to escape.

However, if the football team happens to be close enough to get him down, hog tie him and wait for the police. The garbage can on top of the gun is silly. They do that because they think the students will either accidentally hurt themselves with the gun, or the police will mistake whomever is holding the gun for the shooter.

These are children who are likely to panic, not fully trained adult combat veterans. That's why the emphasis is on distraction and escape. Shooters won't stand there doing nothing like the actor in the video did.
 
Last edited:
Michael74 said:
It not guaranteed, especially if its an assault rifle modified for rapid fire, and the shooter knows what he is doing. They instruct the majority to run away because they don't have much confidence that 3 young girls closest to the shooter can actually stop the shooter. Just delay and distract him for a short period, enabling the majority to escape. Same with throwing books at the shooter. The books won't stop him, but may spoil his aim a bit, allowing additional students to escape.

However, if the football team happens to be close enough to get him down, hog tie him and wait for the police. The garbage can on top of the gun is silly. They do that because they think the students will either accidentally hurt themselves with the gun, or the police will mistake whomever is holding the gun for the shooter.

These are children who are likely to panic, not fully trained adult combat veterans. That's why the emphasis is on distraction and escape. Shooters won't stand there doing nothing like the actor in the video did.
Click to expand...

An assault rifle modified for rapid fire is A) not what's in the video and B) never been used in a school shooting. Kinda silly to just jump to that when what they're working with is a pistol.

At short distances rushing an armed person has a chance to work one-on-one, and is absolutely guaranteed to work if you've got a crowd and you're not up against a machine gun. Trying to cross an open field is where the machine gun has it's advantage, not in the close quarters of a classroom.

Any shooter can't possibly hope to hit everyone rushing at him, just like everyone rushing at him can't hope to not get shot. The same reaction that induces panic also causes people to act like heroes. Those panicking are just as unlikely to run away as they are unlikely to attack. Sending your three girls scenario at the shooter while everyone else runs away is a death sentence to the three, offers little protection to anyone else, and is therefore irresponsible training. A determined shooter may well be able to shoot three people rushing at him, but never have time to take 5 aimed shots in a classroom before being overwhelmed by those rushing him.

Training is designed to instruct those acting like heroes how to work in coordinated fashion. In practicality, we hope this never gets used and it likely won't; the biggest value is in not succumbing to victim mentality, which has lifelong benefits. It also gets kids up and moving, which is important for development as well as anybody's health.

"Fully trained combat veterans" are not in the habit of being unarmed, in close quarters, and needing to subdue a single shooter. That's a pointless comparison. Facing a life or death situation causes people to do surprising things, including rising above their own abilities and being heroes. Nothing would turn the younger generation around like being trained to be a generation of heroes.

If you want to be practical, nothing would subdue a school shooter like the effective barrier at the door made by the HS senior in WI making his only possible entry to shoot the door to bits until he can walk through it. That gives the teacher time to take their .308 out of the fingerprint access only locker and be ready, against the same wall the door is on. Even if the shooter knew what he was up against, he could never take an aimed shot before the teacher hit him multiple times.

We don't have that plan in place because we're not serious about stopping school shootings.

Of course that one teacher might panic and freeze even so, which is why you teach the kids to subdue. Hogtie isn't an option, as students don't usually walk around with rope. A perp isn't subdued until they're knocked out. Then putting his pistol under a trash can is reasonable; it prevents accidents, including whoever has it getting shot by anyone coming to help, as you said.

During the struggle you separate perp from weapons, and never assume he's only got the one in his hands. You keep moving the weapon farther away from the perp, which isn't likely to happen when you teach kids to be afraid of the gun, aka training them they need to hide it under a trash can, which isn't possible with a rifle.
For a first round of training, what we see is almost laudable; you have to start somewhere. If there's no planned follow up this is mostly snake oil, giving a false sense of security.
 
I'm sorry, but it sort of made it sound like your biggest priority was to make sure that the kids got their exercise while practicing fighting for their lives.
 
HeIsRisen2018 said:
That looks like a nice way to train them,

how is one safely supposed to retrieve a gun from the shooter because they made it seem like it was possible.

fleeing from the scene instead of trying to stay hidden
Click to expand...

Since a training video was posted, this merits discussion. First of all there is nothing nice about any aspect of this. Even just teaching kids to face this reality is BRUTAL! Nothing will change the fact that if you're facing an armed attacker there is a very real possibility you will get seriously wounded, or killed. Kids have been repeatedly confronted with this reality enough that folks are starting to be ready to do something.

Next, trying to hide from a shooter in a classroom amounts to nothing more than waiting your turn to get shot. That's no plan at all. The first point of any training is to recognize you are NOT helpless!

You asked "how is one supposed to get a gun away from an attacker because they made it look like it's possible." It IS possible! Not like you see in that video though.

First of all I removed your word "safe." There's nothing safe about any of this. Pulling a gun on someone is inherently unsafe. Having that gun pulled on you is even more unsafe!

Next, while everyone should be trained how to disarm the attacker, it's just as important to train that no more than the first 5 people there try to gain control of the weapon. Otherwise the kids just wind up fighting each other instead of being effective.
Kids always know who is the most athletic, and training needs to include this. The shooter would almost always enter through the door, which means the slowest runners won't be the first to hit him.

The fastest runners closing the distance to the shooter ASAP is the main thing that keeps casualties low. You also want that first wave to hit him all at the same time, there are no prizes for first place. This alone requires practice! They need to learn to run their fastest while arriving together. Then they need to learn to do this in their classroom.

Once you run smack into the shooter, there are specific skills to taking the gun away. Students aren't likely to simply overpower the shooter, so they should be taught other techniques. Hands have inherent weaknesses, and how to take advantage of those is basic to all self-defense. Again, these are valuable skills that stay with you your whole life. Moving the shooter's arms in some directions is easier than others. That needs to be taught. Grabbing the gun itself and moving it in some directions is better than others; that too needs to be taught.

Once these basic skills are learned, kids can practice them in twos, anytime. This can be good safe fun.

Teamwork needs to be taught. A group of five as first wave of attack needs to train together how to effectively control the weapon, reducing how many get shot. This needs to start slowly, with little resistance from the pretend shooter. That's what you saw in the video, slow, with little resistance. In that environment everyone stays safe, and learns what to do.

For this to work you need three waves of people attacking the shooter. First wave controls the weapon, second wave controls the legs so when the third wave hits the perp goes to the floor. That takes away his height advantage so even a large adult against small children, that third wave then has a big part in subduing him.

Everything about this is brutal, nothing about it is nice. Except you never get 17 people shot this way. That much is nice.
You probably get at least 3 people shot, hopefully less than 5. That's still brutal. Hopefully those are all just wounded, with none dead. That would be better than what we've seen.

The most effective part of this, in it's proper place, with everything else that can be done which starts with not letting perps get in the school to begin with, is DETERRENCE. If you know you're going to run into this much resistance, you probably won't try it. Even moreso where teachers and other staff are allowed to be armed! That'll always be more effective than just hiring armed guards, because kids wanting to go back to shoot up their old school can learn where those guards are and avoid them, attacking weak spots.
 
HeIsRisen2018 said:
I'm sorry, but it sort of made it sound like your biggest priority was to make sure that the kids got their exercise while practicing fighting for their lives.
Click to expand...

Priority? No. Practical benefit? Yes. Along with the mental benefits of not seeing yourself as a victim, which is important.

And you don't train safely while fighting for your life. You train to fight for your life by starting slowly, with no force, repeating basic movements you've been taught. Gradually you speed things up.

The training needs to be National, and can therefore become really good because you've got a whole pool of experts designing it carefully. Columbine happened almost 20 years ago, and we still don't have that much in place.

Contrast that to Japan, that did all this as a lifestyle for untold centuries leading up to WWII. We attacked them with the A-bomb because we knew the resistance would be so great even after we killed all their soldiers, just fighting their women and children. Think about that!

Their schools are also better than ours, and not plagued with so much rebellion. There's a connection here! And no we don't need to adopt their culture, or even learn their martial arts. Just some basic practical self-defense, against someone holding a gun. It's very possible. Nobody's invincible. At close range a gun gives you an advantage for less than 2 seconds, after that it's a disadvantage because your arms are busy trying to use your gun. Self-defense is all about how to take advantage of these things.
 
Razeontherock said:
Since a training video was posted, this merits discussion. First of all there is nothing nice about any aspect of this. Even just teaching kids to face this reality is BRUTAL! Nothing will change the fact that if you're facing an armed attacker there is a very real possibility you will get seriously wounded, or killed. Kids have been repeatedly confronted with this reality enough that folks are starting to be ready to do something.

Next, trying to hide from a shooter in a classroom amounts to nothing more than waiting your turn to get shot. That's no plan at all. The first point of any training is to recognize you are NOT helpless!

You asked "how is one supposed to get a gun away from an attacker because they made it look like it's possible." It IS possible! Not like you see in that video though.

First of all I removed your word "safe." There's nothing safe about any of this. Pulling a gun on someone is inherently unsafe. Having that gun pulled on you is even more unsafe!

Next, while everyone should be trained how to disarm the attacker, it's just as important to train that no more than the first 5 people there try to gain control of the weapon. Otherwise the kids just wind up fighting each other instead of being effective.
Kids always know who is the most athletic, and training needs to include this. The shooter would almost always enter through the door, which means the slowest runners won't be the first to hit him.

The fastest runners closing the distance to the shooter ASAP is the main thing that keeps casualties low. You also want that first wave to hit him all at the same time, there are no prizes for first place. This alone requires practice! They need to learn to run their fastest while arriving together. Then they need to learn to do this in their classroom.

Once you run smack into the shooter, there are specific skills to taking the gun away. Students aren't likely to simply overpower the shooter, so they should be taught other techniques. Hands have inherent weaknesses, and how to take advantage of those is basic to all self-defense. Again, these are valuable skills that stay with you your whole life. Moving the shooter's arms in some directions is easier than others. That needs to be taught. Grabbing the gun itself and moving it in some directions is better than others; that too needs to be taught.

Once these basic skills are learned, kids can practice them in twos, anytime. This can be good safe fun.

Teamwork needs to be taught. A group of five as first wave of attack needs to train together how to effectively control the weapon, reducing how many get shot. This needs to start slowly, with little resistance from the pretend shooter. That's what you saw in the video, slow, with little resistance. In that environment everyone stays safe, and learns what to do.

For this to work you need three waves of people attacking the shooter. First wave controls the weapon, second wave controls the legs so when the third wave hits the perp goes to the floor. That takes away his height advantage so even a large adult against small children, that third wave then has a big part in subduing him.

Everything about this is brutal, nothing about it is nice. Except you never get 17 people shot this way. That much is nice.
You probably get at least 3 people shot, hopefully less than 5. That's still brutal. Hopefully those are all just wounded, with none dead. That would be better than what we've seen.

The most effective part of this, in it's proper place, with everything else that can be done which starts with not letting perps get in the school to begin with, is DETERRENCE. If you know you're going to run into this much resistance, you probably won't try it. Even moreso where teachers and other staff are allowed to be armed! That'll always be more effective than just hiring armed guards, because kids wanting to go back to shoot up their old school can learn where those guards are and avoid them, attacking weak spots.
Click to expand...



I agree with you on everything here except to the hiding verses running away and I'm just going by what my mother taught me about this by the way. If you stay down, stay silent and stay hidden opposed to running out in front of him or her and basically shouting, "here I am!" then you are less likely to get shot.
 
HeIsRisen2018 said:
I agree with you on everything here except to the hiding verses running away and I'm just going by what my mother taught me about this by the way. If you stay down, stay silent and stay hidden opposed to running out in front of him or her and basically shouting, "here I am!" then you are less likely to get shot.
Click to expand...

That works in the right environment. You're not in school so this isn't important for you to know now, but in a classroom which is brightly lit, first walking into the room you see where everyone is. Anybody trying to hide anywhere is going to be really obvious, unless they're on the other side of a wall like in a closet or something. And then they needed to get up and run to get into that closet, or coatroom. If you can do that after learning there's an active shooter but before he enters your classroom? GREAT! Teachers have had their class do this, and it worked.
 
Razeontherock said:
That works in the right environment. You're not in school so this isn't important for you to know now, but in a classroom which is brightly lit, first walking into the room you see where everyone is. Anybody trying to hide anywhere is going to be really obvious, unless they're on the other side of a wall like in a closet or something. And then they needed to get up and run to get into that closet, or coatroom. If you can do that after learning there's an active shooter but before he enters your classroom? GREAT! Teachers have had their class do this, and it worked.
Click to expand...





Yeah that's true and you're right. I'm not in school anymore and back when I was going to school I never had to worry about things like this. However a few years after I graduated there was a shooting at that exact same school I attended right where I would have been at that time of day too. It's sort of funny, you never think that your child's home school will be targeted until it is and you never even talk to them about the possibility until it's too late. It's a very sad and tragic situation all around.
 
Welcome to another edition of today's news. We start off today's news with another shooting that took place Friday in Akron Ohio that involved two teenagers. Here's more on the story.

http://fox8.com/2018/04/07/2-teens-shot-2-arrested-during-large-fight-in-akron/


And a social worker faces fourteen felony charges after one of his patients accused him of treating her like his sex slave. Here's more of the details.


http://fox8.com/2018/04/07/social-w...fter-patient-says-she-made-him-her-sex-slave/



Also a Cleveland man is in custody after he assaulted his six month old baby. Here's more on the story.


http://fox8.com/2018/04/07/cleveland-man-in-custody-for-assault-on-his-infant/



And speaking of Cleveland although it wasn't a very big victory for the Royals in yesterday's game, they still beat the Indians one to nothing.


http://fox8.com/2018/04/07/dudas-homer-carries-royals-past-indians-1-0/



Also, Ohio State University revoked an honorary degree that they awarded to Bill Cosby in 2001.



http://fox8.com/2018/04/07/ohio-state-revokes-bill-cosbys-honorary-degree-amid-retrial/



And the fire at Trump tower that occurred yesterday leaves one man dead and six firefighters injured.


http://fox8.com/2018/04/08/fire-at-trump-tower-leaves-man-dead-and-6-firefighters-injured/



Also a twenty-five year old man from Cleveland was fatally shot during an attempted robbery. Here's more on the story.



http://fox8.com/2018/04/08/police-man-25-fatally-shot-during-attempted-robbery-in-cleveland/



And three bodies were found inside a home last evening. Here's more.


http://fox8.com/2018/04/07/akron-police-3-bodies-found-in-home/



Also, here's the latest update on the SUV cliff crash in California. One of the bodies of the victims has been apparently found. Here's more.


http://fox8.com/2018/04/07/body-suspected-to-be-from-california-cliff-crash-found/



And finally in today's news four teenagers who dropped a sandbag on a car killing a man has been ordered to a youth treatment facility.


http://fox8.com/2018/04/07/4-toledo...on-car-killing-man-ordered-to-youth-facility/



That's all for today's news and have a wonderful rest of your day! :)
 
HeIsRisen2018 said:
Yeah that's true and you're right. I'm not in school anymore and back when I was going to school I never had to worry about things like this. However a few years after I graduated there was a shooting at that exact same school I attended right where I would have been at that time of day too. It's sort of funny, you never think that your child's home school will be targeted until it is and you never even talk to them about the possibility until it's too late. It's a very sad and tragic situation all around.
Click to expand...

Wow I had no idea! Talk about "bringing it home," that must've been difficult.
 
Razeontherock said:
Wow I had no idea! Talk about "bringing it home," that must've been difficult.
Click to expand...




I know it was. For safety reasons I won't mention the name of the school, but you have absolutely no idea how it felt seeing that had happened to your own school. Luckily only a few people died but many were still injured. As I stated before that could have been me in that situation. I can't even possibly imagine the fear I would have felt if it had had happened to me. I wonder how one does manage to get over something like that. That must be one of the hardest if not the hardest thing in the world to watch your friends (even if they're Christians and you know that they're going to Heaven) die right before your eyes.
 
Yup. This is why it's so unfathomable to me that we didn't do everything possible, Nation-wide, to protect kids in school. Right after Columbine. Everything you've seen me say was known then. The only thing really new is that device to hold a door closed, made by that HS student in WI. Aren't you the one that posted that?
 
Razeontherock said:
Yup. This is why it's so unfathomable to me that we didn't do everything possible, Nation-wide, to protect kids in school. Right after Columbine. Everything you've seen me say was known then. The only thing really new is that device to hold a door closed, made by that HS student in WI. Aren't you the one that posted that?
Click to expand...



I'm not sure, I honestly don't remember lol although it really isn't funny. I totally agree with you a hundred percent.
 
Razeontherock said:
An assault rifle modified for rapid fire is A) not what's in the video and B) never been used in a school shooting.
Click to expand...

The Parkland Florida shooter used an AR-15 style rifle to shoot 17 children. There are kits to mod them.

I agree with you on the training. I have martial arts training, so I know what you are talking about.

The door stop is a good idea.
 
Michael74 said:
The Parkland Florida shooter used an AR-15 style rifle to shoot 17 children. There are kits to mod them.

I agree with you on the training. I have martial arts training, so I know what you are talking about.

The door stop is a good idea.
Click to expand...

Yes, AR 15s have been used in mass shootings, a whole string of them. Not modified with bumpstocks or any other means of trying to achieve more rapid fire.

It's brutal to even consider charging an active shooter, for anyone! And yet most of our mass shooting incidents demonstrate that not only would it have worked, it would've been infinitely preferable to holding still and waiting for your turn to get shot.

This is really about the mindset of being a hero more than anything else; it would be a huge benefit to our Nation in a wide variety of ways. And the perfect time to instill that value system is while we're young: "the land of the free, and the home of the brave." Those two go together, no matter how corny it may sound. That change doesn't happen overnight, and will hopefully never be put to the test ...
 
Michael74 said:
2 teens shot in a parking lot. The cities are becoming a war zone.
Click to expand...

Actually violence is down considerably, while gun ownership is simultaneously WAY up. This is true of the last 20+ years. Those facts don't fit the media narrative.

Still a horrible wave, easily seen in the reports here in the last few days ...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top