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Instrumental music

Imagican said:
My take on music in the churches is that better safe than sorry. The less the better. And guys, look at it this way, the only arguments that I'll get on this is from those that ENJOY music so much that they can't imagine there being none. This is a prime indication that it's for the purpose of SELF EDIFICATION and not done to please the Father. Think about it.........

That's good advice, unless God has called you to spiritual warfare. Now, before you get defensive Imagican, let me explain. Each church (local gathering of believers) has its own calling. Some are called to evangelism, some to teach, etc. I've visited churches that have been called to do spiritual warfare (2 Corinthians 10:4), some in the very heart of voodoo territory - Trinidad (home of the steel drum).

The whole point of spiritual warfare is offense, not defense. These churches are called to go into the enemies camp and reclaim the land for the Kingdom of God (Acts 1:8). This pertains to music that "is of the devil". You know, if something belongs to the devil, shouldn't we take it back? Jesus gave us the authority over the devil and his powers (Luke 10:17). Suggested reading, "Essentials Of Spiritual Warfare" by A. Scott Moreau.

WARNING: Before you jump on your high horse and go charging into the enemies camp, I suggest that you remember the sons of Sceva (Acts 19:14-16). Make sure you know what it is that God has called you to. As Imagican has said, it's better to be safe...

As a former entertainer, I agree that music can be used to control. It can also be used to bring unity (Ephesians 5:19-21).

As to "Self Edification", that is true. We need to guard against that. I recently was invited to join a worship team for a conference. One of the musicians was a young Heavy Metalist who's contributions were quite often disruptive. We need to subject our music to the leading of the Holy Spirit (Ecclesiastes 3).
 
I was asked as to the source I used to say that "psallo" means to pluck. All I did was a study of the history of the word. It was used to mean to pluck hair and to pluck the carpenters string. All that aside, you still must keep in mind that the word describes what is to be plucked (or twanged if you want to use it). So according to Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16, what is to be plucked or twanged. Please don't give me the lame talk about plucking the heart strings as if you don't know what I am talking about. The Bible says we worship God in spirit and truth. We worship God with all our hearts and that makes perfect sense with singing and making melody in our hearts (plucking the heart strings). Let me suggest everyone do a study on the history of instrumental music in the church. You might be surprised at what you find!
 
Christians Make Better Music!!!

kwag_myers said:
Imagican said:
My take on music in the churches is that better safe than sorry. The less the better. And guys, look at it this way, the only arguments that I'll get on this is from those that ENJOY music so much that they can't imagine there being none. This is a prime indication that it's for the purpose of SELF EDIFICATION and not done to please the Father. Think about it.........

That's good advice, unless God has called you to spiritual warfare. Now, before you get defensive Imagican, let me explain. Each church (local gathering of believers) has its own calling. Some are called to evangelism, some to teach, etc. I've visited churches that have been called to do spiritual warfare (2 Corinthians 10:4), some in the very heart of voodoo territory - Trinidad (home of the steel drum).

The whole point of spiritual warfare is offense, not defense. These churches are called to go into the enemies camp and reclaim the land for the Kingdom of God (Acts 1:8). This pertains to music that "is of the devil". You know, if something belongs to the devil, shouldn't we take it back? Jesus gave us the authority over the devil and his powers (Luke 10:17). Suggested reading, "Essentials Of Spiritual Warfare" by A. Scott Moreau.

I agree with kwag_myers -- We should take back what the devil has stolen from us ..... We can use all kinds of music to worship God, which is pleasing in His sight.

Our hearts are the more important issue here .... God can use any kind of music for His glory, and to bring people to know Him. Praise God!

Music can be a ministry, and used to God's glory, and as a tool to reach many people. I thank God for blessing His people with the gift of music, that is playing many different kinds of musical instruments, whether in the church, or outside of the church building.

Maybe some people have forgotten, or perhaps never realized, that the church is not the building. The church is the people. Wherever we go, there is the church of Jesus Christ.

We don't worship God only inside the church, or in a meeting of believers. We worship God all day long, at work, in our home, in our gardens, while waiting in line at the Post Office, or while camping in the mountains, or fishing, riding bicycles, exercising, at the park .......

Music is just one of many things that the devil has used as a tool for his evil deeds. But we can use music for God's glory instead. If the enemy can create music in the minds of his followers, then we, as Christians, can make even better music, to the glory of God almighty!!
 
Collier said:
I was asked as to the source I used to say that "psallo" means to pluck. All I did was a study of the history of the word. It was used to mean to pluck hair and to pluck the carpenters string. All that aside, you still must keep in mind that the word describes what is to be plucked (or twanged if you want to use it). So according to Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16, what is to be plucked or twanged. Please don't give me the lame talk about plucking the heart strings as if you don't know what I am talking about. The Bible says we worship God in spirit and truth. We worship God with all our hearts and that makes perfect sense with singing and making melody in our hearts (plucking the heart strings). Let me suggest everyone do a study on the history of instrumental music in the church. You might be surprised at what you find!

Collier: This thread seems to be going nowhere! The interpretation of scripture that Collier takes is too extreme, legalistic, and not consistant with the entire word of God.

I can still love you as a brother, but we must agree to disagree. You cannot judge my heart, or the hearts of millions of people who ARE worshipping God in spirit and truth (which has nothing whatsoever to do with your interpretation of not using musical instruments for worship).

God can and does use people who play musical instruments for worship and to reach many people for Jesus. God can make a donkey speak, or even the rocks to cry out and worship Him. He can surely bless His people with musical talents for playing musical instruments for His glory and as ministry tools to reach the lost for Christ.

I do not use music for my own edification, as some would claim. You do NOT know my heart, or anyone's heart. Music, and I am including using musical instruments for worship in any place, has been a wonderful blessing in my life. You do not have a clue what kind of hardships that myself and my children have gone through -- being sexually abused by my x-wife. She also sexually abused my children, threatened to kill me, my children, and my mother with knives!

We have been tormented for many years, living with a terrible, ungodly women, who would not allow us to listen to music, music that would have blessed us. And sometimes, when she was gone, we would turn our music on, and God would bless us, including worship music. Sometime I would sneak away with my children to a godly church, that played musical instruments for worship. God would use that music and musical instruments to bless us, and be able to hold on to our faith, and remain strong in Him who loves us.

The church I attend has many healing ministries, and one of the effective (or is that affective?) tools the church uses is MUSIC/MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS, to bless many hurting people, people who need healing, and who receive healing.

God touches many lives with the ministry of music. I guess that some people do not see that kind of ministry, or understand that kind of ministry. Maybe their hearts are hardened, or maybe not? I don't know. God knows ALL of our hearts, and whose hearts are TRUE to HIM.

God is the Almighty, all-powerful, all-knowing. God can do anything He wants to, even use musical instruments to bless His people, and to bring others to salvation.

I cannot force anyone to change their minds, and neither can they change me. So, can we all agree to disagree?

Now listening to -- Rebecca St. James, "Live Worship: Blessed Be Your Name."
 
If you take my previous post into consideration, what I ask is: What ability do we that live in the world have to discern righteous from unrighteous music?

As far as musical instruments are concerned, I seem to remember that Cain's descendants were their creators. Doesn't make much sense that you would believe that these descendants would have created them to 'worship God'. We can plainly see that EVERY religion on the planet uses music in their worship. From my perspective, most are NOT worshipping God, but some 'other' deity that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the 'Father', our Creator.

Drums we know, are one of the first musical instruments used in religious practice. If we look back through history, we easily find that this is a totally modern addition to the 'Christian' churches. I will simply ask you, 'why'? If this form of musical worship has been around so long, why was it never incorporated into Judaism or Christianity until now? There MUST be a reason.

Satan was a beautiful angel. Not the red-skinned, horny-headed, pointed-tail, pitch fork wielding enemy that is portrayed in comic books. He is the FATHER of LIES. His ability to lie leaves us who try in shame. This is an entity that is so subtle that many are totally unaware of his influence. Beware, for there are those that will worship him as God and not even realize it. His time is limited and he's working over-time to divert all that he can.

Pay attention to the music that you listen to and see how it moves you. There is certainly NOTHING wrong with offering that which is righteous to God in worship. But we must beware of that which actually edifies self instead of lifting up the whole, in our offerings to God. This means that if we LOVE music for what it offers US, then it certainly has NO place in the worship of God.
 
Imagican said:
If you take my previous post into consideration, what I ask is: What ability do we that live in the world have to discern righteous from unrighteous music?

As far as musical instruments are concerned, I seem to remember that Cain's descendants were their creators. Doesn't make much sense that you would believe that these descendants would have created them to 'worship God'. We can plainly see that EVERY religion on the planet uses music in their worship. From my perspective, most are NOT worshipping God, but some 'other' deity that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the 'Father', our Creator.

Drums we know, are one of the first musical instruments used in religious practice. If we look back through history, we easily find that this is a totally modern addition to the 'Christian' churches. I will simply ask you, 'why'? If this form of musical worship has been around so long, why was it never incorporated into Judaism or Christianity until now? There MUST be a reason.

Satan was a beautiful angel. Not the red-skinned, horny-headed, pointed-tail, pitch fork wielding enemy that is portrayed in comic books. He is the FATHER of LIES. His ability to lie leaves us who try in shame. This is an entity that is so subtle that many are totally unaware of his influence. Beware, for there are those that will worship him as God and not even realize it. His time is limited and he's working over-time to divert all that he can.

Pay attention to the music that you listen to and see how it moves you. There is certainly NOTHING wrong with offering that which is righteous to God in worship. But we must beware of that which actually edifies self instead of lifting up the whole, in our offerings to God. This means that if we LOVE music for what it offers US, then it certainly has NO place in the worship of God.

Imagician: Right away I see a problem with your interpretation of the history of music! If you are correct, that Satan invented music and the musical instruments, and worship using musical instrument, then it seems logical to conclude that God stole music with musical instruments from Satan!!

Obviously, that is absurd!!! We see clearly that God instructed/commanded His people to use music with musical instruments to worship Him!! There is something wrong with your interpretation Imagician!

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Presently listening to: Michael Card & John Michael Talbot, "Brothers to Brothers."
 
Imagican has sort of opened another can of worms.

I've no doubt that we can worship with musical instruments based on the witness of the Bible.

However, based on that same witness, there was a distinction between what was played in the temple and what was considered secular.

Drums were never played in the synagogue as they were commanded by God not to. The drums were considered secular instruments and therefore not appropriate for synagogue worship.

NOT THAT THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DRUMS!!!!

It is just that there is a time and place for everything.

This is something that our current 'celebration' type churches have forgotten. There is some things okay on their own that are not appropriate for the sanctuary service.

As a bluegrass musician, there is nothing wrong with the guitar. However, I'm not going to stand up in the worship service at church and pick away like a madman at a hundred miles another in a show off guitar solo even in a gospel song, though such a thing is perfectly acceptable in a concert show.,

If we follow biblical standards, there should be no drums in the church worship service....Notice I said on that 'Sunday morning' or 'Saturday morning' worship service, not for any secular entertainment or even a church concert.
 
Drums were never played in the synagogue as they were commanded by God not to. The drums were considered secular instruments and therefore not appropriate for synagogue worship.

NOT THAT THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DRUMS!!!!

If we follow biblical standards, there should be no drums in the church worship service....Notice I said on that 'Sunday morning' or 'Saturday morning' worship service, not for any secular entertainment or even a church concert.[/quote]

---------------------------------

I did not find this in my bible, please tell me where.

The question I would ask is who created music and for what purposs?

And where did the drum come from?[/quote]
 
Darrell dunn said:
I did not find this in my bible, please tell me where.

The question I would ask is who created music and for what purposs?

And where did the drum come from?

I suggest you read this part (forgive the length). It lays out where and which instruments were instructed to be used. The cymbals were not used as a regular worship to maintain a beat but more used like the they are in our current concert bands.

Anyways, it is informative and gives texts.

Guibox

______________

  The Musical Instruments of the Temple. David instituted not only the times, place, and words for the performance of the Levitical choir, but he also "made" the musical instruments to be used for their ministry (1 Chron 23:5; 2 Chron 7:6). This is why they are called "the instruments of David" (2 Chron 29:26-27).

            To the trumpets which the Lord had ordained through Moses, David added the cymbals, lyres, and harp (1 Chron 15:16; 16:5-6). The importance of this combination as divinely ordained is indicated by the fact that this combination of instruments was respected for many centuries until the destruction of the Temple. For example, in 715 B. C., King Hezekiah "stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres, according to commandment of David and of Gad the king’s seer and of Nathan the prophet; for the commandment was from the Lord through his prophets" (2 Chron 29:25).

            The trumpets were played by the priests and their number ranged from two in the daily worship (1 Chron 16:6; Num 10:2) to seven or more on special occasions (1 Chron 15:24; Neh 12:33-35; 2 Chron 5:12). "In worship at the Temple the trumpets gave the signal for the prostration of the congregation during the presentation of the burnt offering and the performance of the choral service (2 Chron 29:27-28). . . . While the Levitical musicians faced the altar, the trumpeters stood facing them in front of the altar (2 Chron 5:12; 7:6)."14 This arrangement highlighted the responsibility of the trumpeters to give the signal for the congregation to prostrate and for the choir to sing.

            The cymbals consisted of two metal plates with reflexed rims about 10-15 inches wide. When struck together vertically, they produced a ringing, tinkling sound. Some appeal to the use of cymbals to argue that Temple music had a rhythmic beat like rock music today, and, consequently, the Bible does not forbid percussion instruments and rock music in the church today. Such an argument ignores the fact that, as Kleinig explains, "the cymbals were not used by the precantor to conduct the singing by beating out the rhythm of the song, but rather to announce the beginning of the song or a stanza in the song. Since they were used to introduce the song, they were wielded by the head of choir on ordinary occasions (1 Chron 16:5) or by the three heads of the guilds on extraordinary occasions (1 Chron 15:19). . . . Since the trumpets and the cymbals were played together to announce the beginning of the song, the players of both are called the ‘sounders&#! ! 146; in 1 Chronicles 16:42."15

            In his book Jewish Music in Its Historical Development, A. Z. Idelsohn notes that in the worship of the Temple only one pair of cymbals were used and that by the leader himself. "The percussive instruments were reduced to one cymbal, which was not employed in the music proper, but merely to mark pauses and intermissions."16 In a similar vein, Curt Sachs explains,"The music in the Temple included cymbals, and the modern reader might conclude that the presence of percussion instruments indicate rigid beats. But there is little doubt that the cymbals, as elsewhere, marked the end of a line and not the beats inside a verse. . . . A word for rhythm does not seem to exists in the Hebrew language."17 The term "Selah," which occurs in some psalms to mark the end of a stanza, may indica! ! te the place where the cymbals were struck.

            The third group of musical instruments was comprised of two string instruments, the lyres and the harps, which were called "the instruments of song" (2 Chron 5:13) or "the instruments of God’s song" (1 Chron 16:42). As indicated by their descriptive name, their function was to accompany the songs of praise and thanksgiving to the Lord (1 Chron 23:5; 2 Chron 5:13). The musicians who played the harps and the lyres would themselves sing the song to their own accompaniment (1 Chron 9:33; 15:16, 19, 27; 2 Chron 5:12-13; 20:21).

            In his book The Music of the Bible in Christian Perspective, Garen Wolf explains that "String instruments were used extensively to accompany singing since they would not cover up the voice or the ‘Word of Jehovah’ which was being sung."18 Great care was taken to ensure that the vocal praise of the Levitical choir would not be overshadowed by the sound of the instruments.
             

            Restriction on Musical Instruments. Some scholars argue that instruments like drums, timbrel (which was a tambourine), flutes, and dulcimers were kept out of the Temple because they were associated with pagan worship and culture, or because they were customarily played by women for entertainment. This could well be the case, but it only goes to show that there was a distinction between the sacred music played inside the Temple and the secular music played outside.

            A restriction was placed on the musical instruments and art expression to be used in the House of God. God prohibited a number of instruments which were allowed outside the Temple for national festivities and social pleasure. The reason is not that certain percussion instruments were evil per se. The sounds produced by any musical instrument are neutral, like a letter of the alphabet. Rather, the reason is that these instruments were commonly used to produce entertainment music which was inappropriate for worship in God’s House. By prohibiting instruments and music styles, like dancing, associated with secular entertainment, the Lord taught His people to distinguish between the sacred music played in the Temple, and the secular, entertainment music used in social life.

            The restriction on the use of instruments was meant to be a binding rule for future generations. When King Hezekiah revived Temple worship in 715 B. C., he meticulously followed the instructions given by David. We read that the king "stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres, according to the commandment of David . . . for the commandment was from the Lord through his prophets" (2 Chron 29:25).

            Two and a half centuries later when the Temple was rebuilt under Ezra and Nehemiah, the same restriction was applied again. No percussion instruments were allowed to accompany the Levitical choir or to play as an orchestra at the Temple (Ezra 3:10; Neh 12:27, 36). This confirms that the rule was clear and binding over many centuries. The singing and the instrumental music of the Temple were to differ from that used in the social life of the people.

- "The Christian and Rock Music" - Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi
 
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