Instrumental music

[Solo]

One other point on a serious note. All of those who submit that playing musical instruments when worshiping God should never listen to music where musical instruments are played. The worshipping of God is not just done one day a week during a time that a local gathering calls themselves together to sing. The entire life of a believer is one of worship to God, all day long, every day of the week.

 

[KnarfKS]

I may be completely off, but where in the NT does it tell us to sing while worshiping? There very well may be incidences, I just don't know.

As for King David using MIMs? He also used burnt sacrifices of animals. They were authorized by God during that time. Now is different. We aren't commanded to offer animal sacifices. Nor are we commanded to use MIMs.

Are we commanded to meet in a church building? Or sing hymns? Or eat crackers or actual pieces of unleavened bread? Grape juice or actual wine for communion? Own computers to discuss with and meet other Christians?

This is precisely what happened when man first sought to introduce them years ago! IT SPLIT THE CHURCH!!!!!

Was it the instrument that spit the church, or the pride and stupidity of the people in the church? Thats like splitting the church because "I can't worship in a red carpeted sanctuary, blah, blah blah" it is all an excuse. The carpet or the instruments are not the evil, it is the hearts of those willing to spit the church over pride and mask it with trivial objects that they blame.

As for the peanut butter thing, I'm with others on this one, you have a very poor analogy.

Why on earth would I want to add peanut butter to the Lord's Supper? I don't! God plainly gave us instructions for how and when to partake of the Lord's Supper.

[quote:d41ca]If you are a Christian, please answer my original question. Why on Earth would you want to something like this?

Why on earth would I want to add peanut butter to the Lord's Supper? I don't! God plainly gave us instructions for how and when to partake of the Lord's Supper.

Why on earth would anyone want to do the same with worship in song?

By the same reasoning that it is wrong to add peanut butter, it is wrong to add mechanical instruments of music.[/quote:d41ca]
Did God give us specific instructions in the worship with music as well? Our voices are actually quite mechanical considering the vocal cords tongue, lips and other things that cause the sounds. Can we cause others to stumble with our voices? I would think yes. The question when worshiping God in voice, guitar, humming or even silence is why and for whom are you doing it?

 

[imported_Christian]

KnarfKS

I may be completely off, but where in the NT does it tell us to sing while worshiping? There very well may be incidences, I just don't know.

Rom 15:9-11
(9) And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
(10) And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
(11) And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

Heb 2:12
Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

1 Cor 14:15
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Eph 5:17-21
(17) Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
(18) And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
(19) Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
(20) Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
(21) Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Heb 13:15-16
(15) By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
(16) But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Col 3:16-17
(16) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
(17) And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Matt 26:30 Mark 14:26
And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Acts 16:25
And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

 

[KnarfKS]

Thanks, I was being lazy and really didn't want to look them up. :-D
My point though, which I really didn't state clearly was that there is no "command" from God to singing is the only form of worship. I really didn't state that clearly, sorry about that. I definately agree that singing is a great form of worship that I do enjoy as well, but I'm not seeing where playing an instrument can't be a form of worship as well.

If a person didn't use their talents to glorify God I would see it as a bigger problem.

 

[guibox]

Another thing to consider is what exactly can we do in the sanctuary service for worship?

As far as the NT goes, only a reading of the scripture and singing is mentioned as a worship practice. That would mean (according to the logic of Collier and a few others) that that is the ONLY thing that can be done in worship. This logic can take us to absurd conclusions if we choose to go there.

As was mentioned:
1) with no direct command NOT to play instruments
2) with the NTs silence on the matter,
3) with the witness of numerous instruments being used throughout the OT)
4) with there not being many mention of other numerous worship styles, rituals and services of which we would have to also conclude are wrong to do

...we must logically conclude that there is nothing wrong with using instruments to worship God.

To say anything else is being a legalist and contradicting the rest of the word of God.

 

[xxangelzkiss]

We'll As long as your using the instuments to worship God it's ok

"make a joyful noise to God"

 

[Older & Senile?]

The fact that men have certain abilities does not endow them with the authority to use those abilities in an unauthorized act of worship to God. Isaiah described the skill of those in his time, who went to great pains to design and craft an image “after the beauty of a man,†the purpose of which was to create an object of worship (Isa. 44:12-17). The prophet rebuked this exercise as the epitome of foolishness, wholly void of “understanding†(vv. 18ff). One can almost hear the protestation of the pro-idol crowd as they appealed to their “God-given talents†in defense of their wicked practice.

Nebuchadnezzar erected a magnificent golden image approximately ten stories tall. He then issued a command that, at a certain time, his subjects were to fall before the structure and worship. Three Hebrew lads refused to do so (see Dan. 3:1ff). Had Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego been tutored in the school of logic under review, they might well have admired the “God-given†talent of the Mesopotamian artisans, and gone â€Åbelly down†before the image!

 

[KnarfKS]

One can almost hear the protestation of the pro-idol crowd as they appealed to their “God-given talents†in defense of their wicked practice.

Who is advocating the worship of them music??? Or worship of the instrument? Or worshiping the talent?
I'm advocating the possibility of use of a musical instrument to worship God, not worship the songs, music, instruments or talents.
Your examples are of people creating an object of worship. Instrumental music is used to worship God who is, not to create an idol. Nebachanezzar had his subjects worship his creation, but i'm advocating worshiping God with the talents.

Your examples just don't apply to this situation in most cases. And if it did would singing not apply as well?

 

[vja4Him]

Musical Instruments New Covenent Theology ?

God has not changed, and continues to be worshipped in Spirit and Truth. King David sang, danced, and played an instrument to worship God and instructed the same in the Psalms.

At what point did God determine that instruments should not be used, and where did he command it so.


6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Malachi 3:6

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. 2 Samuel 6:14


Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. Psalm 33:2

Then will I go unto the altar of God, unto God my exceeding joy: yea, upon the harp will I praise thee, O God my God. Psalm 43:4

Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp. Psalm 149:3

I've been reading through the thread concerning whether or not we should use musical instruments during worship. The problem that I see is simply that playing music and worshipping the Lord is not in the same category of "Being under the Old Testament Law."

Yes, it is true that we no longer need to make animal sacrifices. Jesus is the sacrifice for our sins. There are other things of the Olde Testament law that we no longer need to do.

Worshipping God with or without musical instruments should not even be an issue. If you prefer to worship God only with your voice, do that unto the Lord, with joy in your heart. If you choose to use musical instruments to worship God, as I do, and most people I have ever known or heard of also do, then do that unto the Lord.

When I was working in Washington state, I rented a room from Christians who attended a church that believed in having no musical instruments. They simply waited on the Lord to bless whoever might have something to share, whether it be a song, reading from the scripture, or whatever.

I really missed the music, but had no problem fellowshipping with my "Quiet" brothers and sisters in the Lord. I am concerned that some people hold to these extreme doctrines are becoming very legalistic.

One of my friends and his relatives hold to the doctrine of "No musical instruments in the church" so strongly, that we have nearly become enemies, and all of his choice, not mine. They believe very strongly that they are the only ones who are correct, and everyone else is wrong, and folowing the devil's ways.

Music is a wonderful gift from God. What about many other things that are not commanded in the Bible? Should we stay away from those things as well? -- electricity, cars, buses, bicycles, eye glasses, computers, tools, medicines, etc.?

-- vja4Him
-- http://www.vjandrews.com/index.html
-- http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/VernAndrew ... ion01.html

 

[vja4Him]

God's Authorization to Use This Forum?

God didn't command for us to sing using our voices either - so we're all agonna!!!

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; KJV

I'm confused by this statement by Merry Menagerie. Eph 5:19 clearly teaches that we are to sing.

But let me take another stab at this subject:

Different ones have pointed to the silence of the scriptures regarding the use of mechanical intruments of music in the worship of our God. Pardon me, but where does anyone get the idea that we can approach God based on His silence? Jesus made it very clear where we are to turn for guidance in our lives:

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
KJV

You want to worship the God of this Universe according to what He didn't say? Why? Christ even told Satan that we are to live by the word of God.

God gave us a specific command to sing. For us to go beyond His command is to do what seems right in our own eyes.

If it is acceptable to God for man to add instruments of music to His command to sing, then is it equally acceptable for man to add cheese and summer sausauge to the Lord's Supper.

There is not a single verse in the New Testament that authorizes the use of mechanical instruments of music in the worship of the church. None.

Where is God's authorization to use this forum found in scripture? We are all out of God's will, and shall be struct by lightening if we don't repent, and smash our computers, and stop using this forum ......

Maybe we all need to start walking to work. God never authorized us to drive our vehicles to work, or take the bus, or ride a bicycle either!

I'm so glad that Christ has set me free from the bondage of legalism!! Praise be to the Lord! I like the response that someone made concerning the parable of the talents. Thank God that some people have not hidden their talents, and continue to share their music to the glory of God. Many people are blessed at our church by the music during the worship service. There are many of us who cannot sing, and I thank God that some of them don't! Including myself!!

 

[vja4Him]

What Is Commanded? What Can We Do Anyway?

There can be no doubting that God allowed them in the O.T. because He was specific about it but God does not say one word about their use in the N.T. [/list]

• God said to sing and make melody in the heart. Again, He is being very specific telling us exactly what He wants. The question is do we seek to worship God the way He describes or how we like?

So why not in the NT? If they were so perfect and encouraged by GOD to worship HIMSELF with by His followers, why would it all of a sudden by anathema and not allowed in the NT when the fullness of God's salvation has come to pass, thus making us want to worship Him EVEN MORE??

What has changed, Collier?

Absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence. If only singing was encouraged throughout the whole scripture with NO evidence of instruments being used you might evne have a bit of leg to stand on.

Your argument that it is okay in the OT and in heaven but not in the NT or today because we are not in heaven or in the OT is completely laughable and without any logical merit.

The NT doesn't tell us how to serve food, cultivate our land, clean our houses, how to observe secular entertainment, how to manage our hectic lives, how to name our children, whether we should have domestic pets and hundreds of other things. The bible only mentions cattle and not owning domestic pets, so owning domestic pets is against the scripture because it isn't mentioned there.

That is the sense of your strange logic...

I guess we can't do any of the above mentioned things either because the Bible doesn't mention them...Perhaps if we were in heaven or in the OT we could do them. :roll:

I agree with Gulbox. If you stick to a legalistic interpretation of the Bible, as Collier does, then you logically get yourself into a mess!! What could we do? What should we do? What are we allowed to do? What are we commanded to do? If we are not commanded to do something, then following the bible interpretation that Collier is using, there are many things that we do which we MUST stop doing, or we are on our way to hell on rollerskates!!!

 

[farley]

vja4Him said...

I'm so glad that Christ has set me free from the bondage of legalism!!

I read some where that the Scripture which comprises our Holy Bible can be divided into sections of: history, prophesy, and LAW.

I see the Laws of the Old Testament, as being replaced by the Laws of the New Testament. Not, ALL Law being abolished.

John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

In my view, commandments are LAWS.

Hebrews 5:9 KJV
(9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Wouldn't you agree that LAWS are meant to be obeyed? The New Testament seems full of LAWS to me.

Ergo, those who add to, or take from, these words, or LAWS, are in peril of God's wrath.

In Christ,

farley

 

[kwag_myers]

Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 both use the word "psalms" (or psal-mos' in the original Greek) in directing our worship under the new covenant. The word means striking the chords of a musical instrument.

 

[Vic C.]

Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 both use the word "psalms" (or psal-mos' in the original Greek) in directing our worship under the new covenant. The word means striking the chords of a musical instrument.

I ran across the definition of the word psalm not too long ago, but had forgotten all about this thread. Thanks for the reminder. 8-)

Strong's Ref. # 4210

Romanized mizmowr
Pronounced miz-more'

from HSN2167; properly, instrumental music; by implication, a poem set to notes:

 

[Collier]

Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 both use the word "psalms" (or psal-mos' in the original Greek) in directing our worship under the new covenant. The word means striking the chords of a musical instrument.

You are correct that the musical instrument is included in the definition of this word. However, the definition means "to pluck". Not necessarily an instrument. The word, when used, also tells what is to be plucked. Now, in the two passages you listed, what is to be plucked?It is not right to anyone wishing to find the truth to mishandle the use of this word. We are to pluck the heart strings (remember we worship in spirit and truth) because that is what Paul wrote through inspiration of the Holy Spirit. God was VERY SPECIFIC the type of music He wanted.Just a side note that I had mentioned earlier in this thread, the command in these two verses is to everyone. So do tell me where a church is that has everyone playing a musical instrument? If you insist on forcing musical instruments into the proper use of psalms in these two passages, then be prepared to take it to its logical conclusion. All that aside, your argument falls short on truth. The only music in the N.T. is singing from the heart.

 

[vja4Him]

Commandment For Everyone to Sing With Their Mouth??

Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 both use the word "psalms" (or psal-mos' in the original Greek) in directing our worship under the new covenant. The word means striking the chords of a musical instrument.

You are correct that the musical instrument is included in the definition of this word. However, the definition means "to pluck". Not necessarily an instrument. The word, when used, also tells what is to be plucked. Now, in the two passages you listed, what is to be plucked?It is not right to anyone wishing to find the truth to mishandle the use of this word. We are to pluck the heart strings (remember we worship in spirit and truth) because that is what Paul wrote through inspiration of the Holy Spirit. God was VERY SPECIFIC the type of music He wanted.Just a side note that I had mentioned earlier in this thread, the command in these two verses is to everyone. So do tell me where a church is that has everyone playing a musical instrument? If you insist on forcing musical instruments into the proper use of psalms in these two passages, then be prepared to take it to its logical conclusion. All that aside, your argument falls short on truth. The only music in the N.T. is singing from the heart.

So, if the commandment is for everyone to sing with their mouth, all at the same time, what about people who are tone deaf, or people who are deaf-mute? Or people who don't know English yet (if that is the language that you use in your church), or whatever language is used, and they cannot sing along. Are they breaking the commandment of God, if they don't sing along with everyone else?

Someone pointed out that the examples in the Old Testament (and in Revelations) are still valid, in our New Covenent days. I agree! The examples of musical instruments being used in the Old Testament for worship, and also the examples in Revelations, are both valid for our days as well.

True, we are not under the law, but the issue concerning musical instruments is not connected with the law. We don't need to make animal sacrifices or perform burnt offerings.

We don't stone people for performing work on the Sabbath either ......

Worship is a personal thing. If you prefer no music, fine. Some people, perhaps many/most (?), are blessed by musical instruments. I am listening to Songs, by Rich Mullins right now.

Another good point previously mentioned, is that we worship God not just in church, but anywhere we go. We worship God not just with music, but with our thoughts, and our actions .....

 

[Collier]

But don't you see that by saying it is in the O.T. and so it is still valid but in the next breath say that the other systems of the O.T. are not is hypocritical? You can't have it both ways; if you appeal to the O.T. for authority, then you must take all that goes along with it.Now, as far as the first part of the last post. This is an example of not having a scriptural leg to stand on and grasping at straws.First, tone deaf is not a problem. God said sing and make melody in the heart. He did command us to sing "pretty". Our singing is not for the pleasure of those around us, it is to worship and praise God and if we do so according to His word then it is beautiful to Him.Next, deaf mute????? Are you kidding me? Give God a little credit here. You know what, I don't need to address this issue. They can't help their situation. UUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!People who don't know english yet? I assume you are speaking of infants and the like? What makes you think an infant is a Christian bound by the command to sing? Worship is a personal thing, but by whose standards are we to worship? According to what we like or what God wants? The fact remains that there is no mention of musical instruments in worship to God by the N.T. church. We have no command directly from God to use them and we have no Biblical example of the N.T. church using them to give us authority through example. Friends, why can't we just do things the way God has said and leave our own personal desires out of it? Let us not go beyond what is written and strive to follow God and His word.

 

[vja4Him]

Old Testament Is No Longer Valid!!

But don't you see that by saying it is in the O.T. and so it is still valid but in the next breath say that the other systems of the O.T. are not is hypocritical? You can't have it both ways; if you appeal to the O.T. for authority, then you must take all that goes along with it.Now, as far as the first part of the last post. This is an example of not having a scriptural leg to stand on and grasping at straws.First, tone deaf is not a problem. God said sing and make melody in the heart. He did command us to sing "pretty". Our singing is not for the pleasure of those around us, it is to worship and praise God and if we do so according to His word then it is beautiful to Him.Next, deaf mute????? Are you kidding me? Give God a little credit here. You know what, I don't need to address this issue. They can't help their situation. UUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!People who don't know english yet? I assume you are speaking of infants and the like? What makes you think an infant is a Christian bound by the command to sing? Worship is a personal thing, but by whose standards are we to worship? According to what we like or what God wants? The fact remains that there is no mention of musical instruments in worship to God by the N.T. church. We have no command directly from God to use them and we have no Biblical example of the N.T. church using them to give us authority through example. Friends, why can't we just do things the way God has said and leave our own personal desires out of it? Let us not go beyond what is written and strive to follow God and His word.

You can choose to throw out the Old Testament. Is that what you really want/propose!! How absurd!!! I choose to believe that the Old Testament is still valid. As far as accepting either all of the Old Testament, or throwing it all out, that is ridiculous!!!

There are parts of the Old Testament that are no longer valid for us, as New Testament Christians. We do not need the old sacrifices, because Jesus is the sacrifice, and I'm sure that you would agree with that! Right?

I am not being hypocritical at all. You completely misunderstand the point! Jesus and the apostles refer to the Old Testament, so I guess by your interpretation, you are also saying that Jesus and the writers of the New Testament are also hypocrits!!! That seems to be tantamount to near blasphemy!!!!

In response to the people who are not able to sing, I am glad that you accept their situation as being something that is not their fault. So, they are exempt.

About people who don't know English, I am not speaking of infants!! Hello ..... What about people who are immigrants to this country, and don't know English yet? I've seen many of them, just sitting their in church, can't read along with the songs (that is, assuming the words are available either in a book, or on an overhead/computer). I guess they would be exempt too.

Using your logic, we are still faced with the issue of things that are not mentioned in the Bible. This has been addressed in several posts -- computers (this forum!), cars, buses, bicycles, tools, telephones, and many more ....... I guess that we all should really not even be here on this forum! Maybe we should all join the Amish community, and live naturally!

Maybe we should start another thread: "What are the COMMANDMENTS of God?"

 

[kwag_myers]

You are correct that the musical instrument is included in the definition of this word. However, the definition means "to pluck". Not necessarily an instrument.

Not according to Strong's.

1) a striking, twanging

a) of a striking the chords of a musical instrument

b) of a pious song, a psalm

Thayer's Lexicon is the same. Nothing about plucking. However, if you could explain to me how "plucking the heart strings" works in the context of Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16, I'd love to see it. Just exactly where did you get this "to pluck" thing? (name your source, please)

I mean, "Speaking to yourselves in the plucking of the heart strings..." doesn't make sense to me. Or, "...teaching and admonishing one another in the plucking of the heart strings...". See, it just doesn't work.

The context is how we gather together. Consider Psalms 100:4, "Enter into His gates with thanksgiving, into His courts with praise...". When we come together, we greet each other with testimonies and songs of thanksgiving (Look What The Lord Has Done). This supports what Paul is saying when he writes, "Speaking to yourselves..." and "...one another...". This is how we become one body so that we can focus on the word that the Lord has for us that day (fresh manna).

See, it works. It is in keeping with the entire Bible. Your "plucking the heart strings" is a sentimental notion, but it just doesn't work with the rest of the Word.

 

[Imagican]

Time for my two cents worth.............hehehe

After a lengthy study on the history of music I have come to this conclusion:

1. Music is one of the most influential mediums of spirituality known to man.

2. Lyrics are only a small part of music. Sounds, beats and all aspects of music are influential, not just the lyrics.

3. There is righteous music and there is un-holy music.

4. The ancient Greeks realized the influence of music on morality thousands of years ago and were so adamently against the changing of it that they outlawed 'new' forms of music, (pretty smart, those Greeks).

5. Rock n roll is Rock n roll NO MATTER WHAT LYRICS YOU ADD TO IT.

6. Rap is rap NO MATTER WHAT LYRICS YOU ADD TO IT.

7. It obviously takes MUCH descernment to be able to tell what is 'good' music and what is 'bad' music. So, the safest bet would be to limit it as much as possible, (one can certainly please God without it, so why take the chance?)

8. Look what music has done to this country over the years. Follow history and you will find that the music has led the country in many of it's movements towards immorality and faithlessness.

9. Many Rock n Roll artist go out of their way to incorporate voodoo ritualistic drum beats into their music, ON PURPOSE, because of it's ability to mezmerize an audience.

10. Allister Crowley, the infamous occultist is the idol of MANY Rock and Roll Stars. His teachings most popular catch phrase 'do what thou wilt shall be all the law', is exactly what the music taught generations following the onset of 'rock n roll'. The Beatles, Led Zepplin, and many, many other legendary rock n roll bands idolized this man who taught that self-satisfaction and pleasure are more desirable to be worshiped and adored than God or His Son.

My take on music in the churches is that better safe than sorry. The less the better. And guys, look at it this way, the only arguments that I'll get on this is from those that ENJOY music so much that they can't imagine there being none. This is a prime indication that it's for the purpose of SELF EDIFICATION and not done to please the Father. Think about it.........