Is baptism essential to salvation?

[Memory Dust]

I would like to hear what people here think. I definitely say no, and am about to do a debate on it on another website.

Let me use a simple syllogism. I of course will be using more proof in the actual debate, but for now I'll just use this. When the debate starts I might post some more arguments here.

_______

P.1 Salvation was gained without baptism.

Conclusion: Baptism is not necessary for salvation.

If I am able to prove premise one, then I prove that baptism is not essential.


Defense of first premise:

P.1 The thief on the cross, next too Jesus went too heaven the night he died.

P.2 The thief could not have been able to have been baptized as he repented on the cross, and died shortly after on the cross.

Conclusion: If someone has gone too heaven without being baptized that means baptism is not essential to salvation. The thief went to heaven without being baptized therefore salvation was gained without baptism, and thus baptism is not essential to salvation.

 

[handy]

I've said this before, but I'll say it again....

Baptism is unnecessary if you are planning on spending your entire Christian walk hung on a cross.

The thief on the cross was a recipient of God's grace...yes. He proves that all can come to know Christ, even in the last moments of a life given to crime.

But, most of us aren't going to come to know Christ in the last hour or so of life. It's comforting to know that we can be saved under such circumstances...but those are exceptions, to be sure. Most of us will spend many years here on this earth in faithfulness to Christ.

And for us...baptism is both necessary and commanded. We are commanded to be baptized (Acts 2:38) and commanded to baptize others (Matt 28:18-20).

The bible is very clear on the necessity of baptism for believers. Why point to the one example of God's grace for one in dire circumstances to excuse not obeying one of the Christian's few commandments?

 

[Mike]

I agree with Dora. Also, if a person is brought to faith and refuses to be baptized, to me this is a sign of disobedience. It's a sign that all is not well in the heart, and he/she has not fully surrendered to the Lord. (not for sure, but a sign) This would be a time to take personal inventory and self examination. "Why do I refuse to be baptized, and what would You have me do, Lord?". If he is truly listening, he will be led to baptism.

But, my personal opinion is that a willing vessel that does not get baptized out of ignorance can find salvation. If you know His Word, there simply is no reason not to.

 

[Classik]

I would like to hear what people here think. I definitely say no, and am about to do a debate on it on another website.

Let me use a simple syllogism. I of course will be using more proof in the actual debate, but for now I'll just use this. When the debate starts I might post some more arguments here.

_______

P.1 Salvation was gained without baptism.

Conclusion: Baptism is not necessary for salvation.

If I am able to prove premise one, then I prove that baptism is not essential.


Defense of first premise:

P.1 The thief on the cross, next too Jesus went too heaven the night he died.

P.2 The thief could not have been able to have been baptized as he repented on the cross, and died shortly after on the cross.

Conclusion: If someone has gone too heaven without being baptized that means baptism is not essential to salvation. The thief went to heaven without being baptized therefore salvation was gained without baptism, and thus baptism is not essential to salvation.

She answered well to your argument. I still have few points to add:
your argument:
(P.1 Salvation was gained without baptism.
Conclusion: Baptism is not necessary for salvation.)
It is not that. Look at this:
Mark16:16: He who believes and is baptised will be saved...

like you wrote:
(P.1 The thief on the cross, next too Jesus went too heaven the night he died.)
that was clearly by grace as pointed out by her:
The thief on the cross was a recipient of God's grace...yes. He proves that all can come to know Christ, even in the last moments of a life given tocrime.
But, most of us aren't going to come to know Christ in the last hour or so of life. It's comforting to know that we can be saved under such circumstances...but those are exceptions, to be sure. Most of us will spend many years here on this earth in faithfulness to Christ.
And for us...baptism is both necessary and commanded. We are commanded to be baptized(Acts 2:38) and commanded to baptize others (Matt 28:18-20).
The bible is very clear on the necessity of baptism for believers. Why point to the one example of God's grace for one in dire circumstances to excuse not obeying one of the Christian's few commandments?


Was Christ not baptised Himself?
Luke 3:21 when all the people were baptised, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptised...

Acts2:38 ...Repent, and let everyone of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...
See also Acts 8:12, 18:8;

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into His death?
Take a Look at 1cor12:13,
Gal3:27.
Obviously repentance comes before baptism, and is inevitable to every Christian.

 

[handy]

I don't think anyone can overemphasize the fact that our Lord Himself was baptized...it even took John the Baptist aback!

How can we possibly refuse to follow our Lord's example of when He says, "it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness."

 

[FrustratedForumer]

I would like to hear what people here think. I definitely say no, and am about to do a debate on it on another website.

Let me use a simple syllogism. I of course will be using more proof in the actual debate, but for now I'll just use this. When the debate starts I might post some more arguments here.

_______

P.1 Salvation was gained without baptism.

Conclusion: Baptism is not necessary for salvation.

If I am able to prove premise one, then I prove that baptism is not essential.


Defense of first premise:

P.1 The thief on the cross, next too Jesus went too heaven the night he died.

P.2 The thief could not have been able to have been baptized as he repented on the cross, and died shortly after on the cross.

Conclusion: If someone has gone too heaven without being baptized that means baptism is not essential to salvation. The thief went to heaven without being baptized therefore salvation was gained without baptism, and thus baptism is not essential to salvation.

Really do not see what more can be said. Direct simple and to the point!

 

[Webb]

I couldn't be baptized like Jesus if I wanted to because He had no sin and I do! Big difference! Baptism is FOR the remission of sins, Acts 2:38, etc.

I'll be happy to reason the scripture with the one who originated this thread myself. Not debate, but reason with scripture.

As for the thief, it cannot be proved whether or not he was baptized before the cross, nor would it make any difference if one could prove it either way. The point is the thief was saved, yet not baptized at or after the cross AND THERE IS A PLAIN REASON WHY!

Happy searching the scriptures for the truth!

 

[Jake]

I agree with Dora. Also, if a person is brought to faith and refuses to be baptized, to me this is a sign of disobedience. It's a sign that all is not well in the heart, and he/she has not fully surrendered to the Lord. (not for sure, but a sign) This would be a time to take personal inventory and self examination. "Why do I refuse to be baptized, and what would You have me do, Lord?". If he is truly listening, he will be led to baptism.

But, my personal opinion is that a willing vessel that does not get baptized out of ignorance can find salvation. If you know His Word, there simply is no reason not to.

Yet, I would like to point out, and I know you know this, the act of baptism doesn't save us, like others have said here, it is an obedience to the commandment. We can all get wet, yet still not be a believer, the belief and repentance begins in the heart.

 

[sburdine]

Let me say that you are correct with your premise.

"P.1 Salvation was gained without baptism.

Conclusion: Baptism is not necessary for salvation.

If I am able to prove premise one, then I prove that baptism is not essential."

However, I do not believe that you will be able to prove your premise by your defense.

First, you will need to prove that the thief had not been baptized. This might not have come to mind because we do not have a verse that states whether he was or was not baptized, but there is as much evidence to prove that he could have been baptized as there is he wasn't. Consider these 2 passages.

Mark 1:5 Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

John 4:1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John
2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),

In these 2 passages we learn that a great number had been baptized by John and that Christ's disciples baptized even more than John. So, how does one prove that the thief had not been baptized before and just need to repent? One cannot.

Secondly, your defense fails because the thief did not need to be baptized because he was not forgiven under the New Testament but the Old Testament which did not require baptism. The N.T. did not come into effect until Christ died on the cross.

Heb. 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

The third reason I believe using the thief as an example will fail is because Christ while on earth had the power to forgive sins.

Luke 5:20 When He saw their faith, He said to him, "Man, your sins are forgiven you."
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
23 Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Rise up and walk'?
24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" --- He said to the man who was paralyzed, "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

So when we put your defense up against the scriptures it will not stand. If you want to post the rest of your defense I will be glad to review your points and give an answer with the same love and use of the scriptures as I have this post.

 

[Webb]

Nothing magical about the water of baptism any more than there was anything magical about the dipping of Naaman in the Jordan 7 times. In both case it was faith and obedience to Divine commands. Naaman was not cleansed until 7 times dipped. We do not have remission of sins until faith obeys in water baptism, thus I Pet.3:21 etc.

 

[stovebolts]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people want to hedge their salvation with a works / grace mentality.

I've said it once, I've said it twice, and I'll say it again...

Baptism is a response to the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's really kind of sad so many miss the point.

It's even sadder when it becomes as some line in the sand between ones eternal fate. If your getting baptized because you want to get saved, maybe you weren't taught the gospel of Christ in light of what He's done for us. If you won't get baptized because your hedging on grace,and grace alone, then the question I'll ask is this. If you can't follow Jesus into the baptismal pool, then how will you follow Jesus in the harder things?

 

[Jake]

We are to obey though, and it is a commandment.

 

[Webb]

Baptism IS a work of God, not man: Col.2:12

 

[Jake]

Baptism IS a work of God, not man: Col.2:12

It's something we do, in obedience to God. It's an outward acknowledgement that we are part of His church, God is the one who does the internal preparation.

 

[Webb]

Water baptism is a command and its for the remission of sins: Acts 10:47,48; Acts 2:38. Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments" Jn.14:15.

 

[Memory Dust]

I've said this before, but I'll say it again....

Baptism is unnecessary if you are planning on spending your entire Christian walk hung on a cross.

The thief on the cross was a recipient of God's grace...yes. He proves that all can come to know Christ, even in the last moments of a life given to crime.

But, most of us aren't going to come to know Christ in the last hour or so of life. It's comforting to know that we can be saved under such circumstances...but those are exceptions, to be sure. Most of us will spend many years here on this earth in faithfulness to Christ.

And for us...baptism is both necessary and commanded. We are commanded to be baptized (Acts 2:38) and commanded to baptize others (Matt 28:18-20).

The bible is very clear on the necessity of baptism for believers. Why point to the one example of God's grace for one in dire circumstances to excuse not obeying one of the Christian's few commandments?

Should =/= have too.

Of course God wants us to be baptized, but God wants us to do allot of things that we don't do. We should be baptized, but God would not make something like that necessary for salvation.

What if a new Christian from a country like Pakistan doesn't even know there's such a thing as baptism, because he's a new Christian and doesn't know much about the faith. There are I'm sure many people like this. There are countless of other possible scenarios as well.

Salvation depends on faith not acts. The Bible is very clear about that. Being baptized as an act.

 

[Memory Dust]

Nothing magical about the water of baptism any more than there was anything magical about the dipping of Naaman in the Jordan 7 times. In both case it was faith and obedience to Divine commands. Naaman was not cleansed until 7 times dipped. We do not have remission of sins until faith obeys in water baptism, thus I Pet.3:21 etc.

This

 

[stovebolts]

Water baptism is a command and its for the remission of sins: Acts 10:47,48; Acts 2:38. Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments" Jn.14:15.

If ye love me.... That is the key. We follow Jesus into the baptismal pool because we love him and are willing to do His will and put our will aside. Why do we love Him? Simple, because he first loved us! And he has shown us his great love.

The fact that baptism is for the remission of sins is secondary in the larger scope of things, yet so many are bent on baptism for the remission of sins being the main purpose, that they loose sight that our primary purpose of baptism which calls for relationship in Christ.

Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

We are buried with him... How intimate of a relationship are we speaking of here to be buried with Christ by baptism? How intimate is it when Christ meets us in the baptismal waters to wash our sins away and unite with us in newness! To put the primary focus on baptism for the remission of sins is to miss the treasure of being buried with Christ, that we should walk in the newness of life which only occurs when we love the Lord with all our heart, soul and strength and willingly engage in the relationship with Christ that is able to transform our lives, and it starts with the simplicity of following Jesus into the baptismal pool.

 

[Webb]

Hi Stevebolts

I'm in perfect agreement with your last post. Please note that in my last post I used Jn.14:15. Many who love Jesus do not understand the significance of baptism. Its my understanding this thread is about the purpose of baptism itself.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Stevebolts

I'm in perfect agreement with your last post. Please note that in my last post I used Jn.14:15. Many who love Jesus do not understand the significance of baptism. Its my understanding this thread is about the purpose of baptism itself.

Webb,
I am in perfect agreement with all of your posts as well.

Listen, I have been on this forum for a long time and honestly, this isn't the first time this subject has come up, and it won't be the last for sure.

What I don't understand is why people want to create this hard line about baptism and then go off on these arguments just to prove something... and in doing so they completely miss the greater treasure, which is a closer relationship with Christ through baptism.

But the conversation never goes there. Instead, baptism is always spun as a work and some argue that it's required for salvation and others argue that it's not. I mean come on, do we really think we're that smart? Or do we just think that if we're smarter than the other guy we're right? And what purpose does this hold anyway because neither argument brings us closer to Jesus and without Jesus there isn't any salvation.. Period. Both parties miss the bigger point, and that is simply that baptism is about an intimate relationship with Christ, and it's done in light of the gospel of Christ. Now that's something worth arguing about IMHO.