Is belief "works"?

[savedbygrace57]

My argument has been faith only cannot save for faith by itself excludes repentance, confesson and baptism. Yet the bible teaches one cannot be saved unless they first repent, confess with the mouth and are water baptized, which imples that faith must include repentance, confession and baptism. As soon as someone can show me an example of a person who was living under Christ's NT and saved while still unrepentant, saved while still continuing to deny Christ (not confess Him) and saved while still lost in his unremitted sins, then I will admit my position to be wrong. If they cannot show me an example of one saved while still unrepentant, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins they admit their position to be wrong.

All for whom Christ died for are forgiven, Justified, Reconciled to God while they are enemies ! Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

It cannot be more plainer than that. Being Reconciled to God is being forgiven of all sin and Justified !

Now later it is promised to them that they shall be saved by His Life, which being saved there means converted or born again ! But before they saved that way, they are already Justified, and Forgiven and Reconciled to God while being enemies !

 

[Davies]

Hi Ernest,

That still doesn't change that we can do nothing without Jesus.

Romans 10:4

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.


By believing in Jesus, we add nothing to His righteousness, and we know that it is His righteousness that we are justified by, not ours.


Luke 18:13-14

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.â€


The tax collector, did nothing but witness to the truth of himself, and ask for mercy from God. Are we going to say this man worked for his salvation. I don't think so. He did nothing to merit salvation.


- Davies

 

[Butch5]

My argument has been faith only cannot save for faith by itself excludes repentance, confesson and baptism. Yet the bible teaches one cannot be saved unless they first repent, confess with the mouth and are water baptized, which imples that faith must include repentance, confession and baptism. As soon as someone can show me an example of a person who was living under Christ's NT and saved while still unrepentant, saved while still continuing to deny Christ (not confess Him) and saved while still lost in his unremitted sins, then I will admit my position to be wrong. If they cannot show me an example of one saved while still unrepentant, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins they admit their position to be wrong.

Hi Ernest,

I understand your point. What I was getting at is this. There are those who disagree with your claim and believe that those things, repentance, confession, and baptism are "works." If we can settle the issue of "works" in the Scriptures then it will by default settle the argument that you are not having. I believe one of the biggest problems Christians have is that when they look at the Scriptures they have no hard and fast methods of interpretation and as such they simple define things how they feel they should be defined, whether right or wrong. That's why I made the suggestion. The rules of grammar don't change whether you read something or I read something, so grammar is one area that is set and doesn't change. It's not subject to anyone's opinion or interpretation, it is what it is. It is the same with history, it doesn't change. Logic is another key area that doesn't change. When an argument becomes illogical we know it has gone off course and that we need to refocus. Christians need to put their pride aside and look at these things that determine the meaning of the Scriptures, they need to be willing to abandon doctrines when they're shown to be in error. If we set down some ground rules we can get to the bottom of the issue. However, When people say, 'I feel like' or 'I think it means' and things like that they are giving opinions and with all due respect opinions mean nothing. Opinions don't change the definition of words, they don't change history, the don't change the grammar of a language, they don't change anything, and Christians, if they're ever going to come to the truth must realize this and cast their opinions aside. That is why I'd like to have this discussion.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All for whom Christ died for are forgiven, Justified, Reconciled to God while they are enemies ! Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

It cannot be more plainer than that. Being Reconciled to God is being forgiven of all sin and Justified !

Now later it is promised to them that they shall be saved by His Life, which being saved there means converted or born again ! But before they saved that way, they are already Justified, and Forgiven and Reconciled to God while being enemies !

Heb 2:9 Christ died for every man, so is every man saved? No. Why, because every man will not obey Christ, Heb 5:9 ,and thereby not take advantage of what Christ did for him on the cross.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest,

That still doesn't change that we can do nothing without Jesus.

Romans 10:4

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.


By believing in Jesus, we add nothing to His righteousness, and we know that it is His righteousness that we are justified by, not ours.


Luke 18:13-14

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


The tax collector, did nothing but witness to the truth of himself, and ask for mercy from God. Are we going to say this man worked for his salvation. I don't think so. He did nothing to merit salvation.


- Davies

John 15:5 does not say nor mean that man is not able to believe or repent unless Christ first enables him. If that were the case then Christ is at fault and to be blamed for the unbelievng and unrepentant for not enabling them. John's point is that no person is able to save himself, justify himself make himself righteous apart from Christ, you can do none of this apart from Christ. No man will ever have the perfect sinlessness - perfect righeousness on his own. Therefore man must be in Christ to acheive righteousness before God. Own you own you can never achieve righeouness before God. BUt each man upon hearing the gospel does have the ability within himslef to believe it or not believe it. Those that believe will repent, confess, be baptized then be in Christ where he will be reckoned righteous by God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Heb 2:9 Christ died for every man, so is every man saved? No. Why, because every man will not obey Christ, Heb 5:9 ,and thereby not take advantage of what Christ did for him on the cross.

Post 260. Way to go, you shunned the Truth I presented in Post 260

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest,

I understand your point. What I was getting at is this. Those who disagree with you claim that those things, repentance, confession, and baptism are "works." If we can settle the issue of "works" in the Scriptures then it will by default settle the argument that you are not having. I believe one of the biggest problems Christians have is that when they look at the Scriptures they have no hard and fast methods of interpretation and as such they simple define things how they feel they should be defined, whether right or wrong. That's why I made the suggestion. The rules of grammar don't change whether you read something or I read something, so grammar is one area that is set and doesn't change. It's not subject to anyone's opinion or interpretation, it is what it is. It is the same with history, it doesn't change. Logic is another key area that doesn't change. When an argument becomes illogical we know it has gone off course and that we need to refocus. Christians need to put their pride aside and look at these things that determine the meaning of the Scriptures, they need to be willing to abandon doctrines when they're shown to be in error. If we set down some ground rules we can get to the bottom of the issue. However, When people say, 'I feel like' or 'I think it means' and things like that they are giving opinions and with all due respect opinions mean nothing. Opinions don't change the definition of words, they don't change history, the don't change the grammar of a language, they don't change anything, and Christians, if they're ever going to come to the truth must realize this and cast their opinions aside. That is why I'd like to have this discussion.

If those that disagree with me see that repentance confession and baptism are works, can they show me an example of one under Christ's NT law who was saved without doing these works but saved by faith alone. That means they will have to show me one who was saved in his unrepentant sins, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins. It is impossible for them to show me an example of this and they lose their argument. Which means faith MUST include repentance confession and baptism...faith inlcudes the works and can save. BUt faith is dead if it does not include these works and cannot save.


All they have to do is to show me an example of one who was living under Christ's NT and was saved in his unrepentant sins, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins and the debate is over and I am wrong about faith alone. Until they show me this example they are wrong. I understand the technical route you are going with grammar, context, Greek meanings, etc but that one example I am asking for is so simple it requires no technical understanding. Their inability to show that one example is all the proof I need to prove my case. They would like to get caught up in the technical aspects while never showing me that example.

You posted "Logic is another key area that doesn't change. When an argument becomes illogical we know it has gone off course and that we need to refocus." And that is where I am at with this one example I am waiting on for them to give me. Logically if one can be saved by faith only, that is, saved by a faith void of repentance, confession and baptism then logically that means one can be saved in his unrepentant sins, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins, correct? Yet if one CANNOT be saved in his unrepentant sins, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins, then logically that means a faith that saves MUST include the works of repentance, confession and baptism.


Now they may want to quibble over verses that say repentance, confession and baptism are necessary before one can be saved, and we can take your route on those issue. But as it is now they cannot present me with a single case of one under Christ's NT being saved in his unrepentant sins, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins. Their theology has put them in this impossible position. Just one example will prove me wrong, but we'll never see it.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Post 260. Way to go, you shunned the Truth I presented in Post 260

Rom 5:10 does not say men are saved apart from believing, repenting, confessing with the mouth and being baptized.


You posted "All for whom Christ died for are forgiven, Justified, Reconciled to God while they are enemies ! Rom 5:10"

My response was that Christ died for EVERY MAN, Heb 2:9

So if Christ died for every man then what isn't every man saved?

 

[reba]

ET

I think Peter fits your request..

 

[savedbygrace57]

eb

Rom 5:10 does not say men are saved apart from believing, repenting, confessing
with the mouth and being baptized.

Rom 5:10 states that those Christ died for were reconciled to God while being enemies, unbelievers , unrepentant.

They were saved from the penalty of sin and eternal damnation, forgiven of all Transgressions, while they are unbelievers !

That shoots your edited teaching of works salvation down !

 

[Butch5]

If those that disagree with me see that repentance confession and baptism are works, can they show me an example of one under Christ's NT law who was saved without doing these works but saved by faith alone. That means they will have to show me one who was saved in his unrepentant sins, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins. It is impossible for them to show me an example of this and they lose their argument. Which means faith MUST include repentance confession and baptism...faith inlcudes the works and can save. BUt faith is dead if it does not include these works and cannot save.


All they have to do is to show me an example of one who was living under Christ's NT and was saved in his unrepentant sins, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins and the debate is over and I am wrong about faith alone. Until they show me this example they are wrong. I understand the technical route you are going with grammar, context, Greek meanings, etc but that one example I am asking for is so simple it requires no technical understanding. Their inability to show that one example is all the proof I need to prove my case. They would like to get caught up in the technical aspects while never showing me that example.

You posted "Logic is another key area that doesn't change. When an argument becomes illogical we know it has gone off course and that we need to refocus." And that is where I am at with this one example I am waiting on for them to give me. Logically if one can be saved by faith only, that is, saved by a faith void of repentance, confession and baptism then logically that means one can be saved in his unrepentant sins, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins, correct? Yet if one CANNOT be saved in his unrepentant sins, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins, then logically that means a faith that saves MUST include the works of repentance, confession and baptism.


Now they may want to quibble over verses that say repentance, confession and baptism are necessary before one can be saved, and we can take your route on those issue. But as it is now they cannot present me with a single case of one under Christ's NT being saved in his unrepentant sins, saved while continuing to deny Christ, saved while still lost in his unremitted sins. Their theology has put them in this impossible position. Just one example will prove me wrong, but we'll never see it.

Hi Ernest,

I agree with what you've said here. What I'm trying to get at is to look at the Scriptures through a proper hermeneutical manner so that people can understand why they've drawn the conclusion they've drawn. I agree that no one can provide that passage you're asking for, however, that doesn't bring them to a reconciliation of the passages that they see as opposing each other. What I'm trying to present is a way to look at "all" of the passages on both sides and bring them together into one unified doctrine, it can be done, I've seen it. However, in order to do it we've got to have standards that don't change. It's clearing up the confusion on the issue that we can unify all of the passages.

 

[savedbygrace57]

eb

My response was that Christ died for EVERY MAN, Heb
2:9

So if Christ died for every man then what isn't every man
saved?

Thats a different debate, because every man there does not mean all men without exception. I give my reasons why for that here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=35690&page=2

See posts # 22, 24-25

Lets see if you debate them !

 

[Davies]

BUt each man upon hearing the gospel does have the ability within himslef to believe it or not believe it. Those that believe will repent, confess, be baptized then be in Christ where he will be reckoned righteous by God.

He Ernest,

I'm glad you phrased it this way, "Those that believe will..." Who works in us to will and to do according to His pleasure? Philippians 2:13

The question will still remain for the person who rejects the offer of forgiveness found in Jesus, why. They reject Him and so they will remain in their sins. Why do people reject Him? I don't think we can answer that question. We could site Scripture like people don't come to the light because their deeds are evil, John 3:19, but that doesn't explain the why though. Why do they like to do their evil deeds rather than repent and escape the judgement to come? Unbelief. Why do don't they believe? The question still remains. I'd still like know why you sin, if you think you are in 100% in control of yourself? Or, perhaps the better question is, do you behave perfectly now that you are a Christian?

- Davies

 

[savedbygrace57]

davies

The question will still remain for the person who rejects the offer of
forgiveness found in Jesus

What scripture says there is an offer of forgiveness found in Jesus ?

Thats a false concept, Forgiveness is given to Chosen of God by Christ ! Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[Davies]

davies



What scripture says there is an offer of forgiveness found in Jesus ?

Thats a false concept, Forgiveness is given to Chosen of God by Christ ! Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

I believe other wise, but the subject is out of our department as God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. We are given Scripture to describe those who will be saved, but this examination is in between a person and God to give them assurance or to exhort them unto repentance. And if I'm wrong in this belief, may God be the first to rebuke me for it. I think believing that Jesus died for all sinners is healthy, because He desires all men come to repentance, and so should we.

- Davies

 

[heymikey80]

My argument has been faith only cannot save for faith by itself excludes repentance, confesson and baptism.

I don't know of any faith alone position that states that faith alone excludes repentance, confession, and baptism. In fact quite the opposite. The clearly faith-alone position of Westminster is:

Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love. -- WCF 11.2

So there is clearly a misunderstanding on your part as to your opposition's view of "faith alone".

 

[savedbygrace57]

davies

I believe other wise,

EDITED

I think believing that Jesus died for all sinners is healthy,

edited

And since you believe that Christ died for all sinners, and I assume you mean all without exception, then you certainly do not believe Christ's Death in and of itself saves anyone ! Thats not healthy !

because He desires all men come to repentance, and so should we.

Well He gives Repentance to whom He wants to Repent. Acts 5:31 and 2 tim 2:25
Tim
meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


Also you and I serve Two different God's because the one I know and serve, what He desires He does it ! Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.


Also all the ones He deisres to be saved, His Son is responsible for saving them Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now, I see Two objectives here for the Son of man, was he successful in accomplishing both of them ? I say Yes, what say you ?

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't know of any faith alone position that states that faith alone excludes repentance, confession, and baptism. In fact quite the opposite. The clearly faith-alone position of Westminster is:

Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification: yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love. -- WCF 11.2

So there is clearly a misunderstanding on your part as to your opposition's view of "faith alone".

Somehow they continue to confuse James' "faith alone" teaching (James 2:24) with Paul's "righteousness apart from works" teaching (Romans 4:6) as if they were the same thing and erroneously apply James' conclusion to Paul's very different argument.

 

[Davies]

davies



EDITED



edited

And since you believe that Christ died for all sinners, and I assume you mean all without exception, then you certainly do not believe Christ's Death in and of itself saves anyone ! Thats not healthy !



Well He gives Repentance to whom He wants to Repent. Acts 5:31 and 2 tim 2:25
Tim
meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


Also you and I serve Two different God's because the one I know and serve, what He desires He does it ! Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.


Also all the ones He deisres to be saved, His Son is responsible for saving them Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now, I see Two objectives here for the Son of man, was he successful in accomplishing both of them ? I say Yes, what say you ?

Hi savedbygrace57,

I wouldn't have this issue to be a source of disunity between us. I admit, I could be wrong on this one. That doesn't change what I believe regarding the sovereignty of God, His grace, His death and resurrection, and if we come to Him in faith, His promise not to turn me or anyone else away. That's what I would like to encourage others to believe, and I hope you do too. I think you do. Oh yea, I do agree with you that Jesus accomplished what He set out to do.

- Davies