Is belief "works"?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Why do you think this passage means we are MADE righteous by our obedience to the new nature????

You have to be careful. Righteousness means both, legal right standing with God, and literal righteous deeds. We know he's talking about literal righteous behavior, not legal standing, by the fact that he says we are sanctified by that righteous behavior. It's clearly talking about literal behavior.

If you want to insist Paul is saying we are made legally righteous by our obedience to the new nature then it negates everything he says about having a righteousness apart from righteous works and how only forgiveness can give us legal right standing before God.

I'll be back.

God reckons one to be righteous. The question is: why are some reckoned righteous by God and others are not? Because some will obey God's will while others will not. The Romans obeyed therefore God justified them. So in Rom 6:16-18 Paul shows obedience to God's will does justify.

In Rom 4:4-5 and Tts 3:5 and Rom 10:3 when Paul says "not of works" or "not by works of righteousness which we have done" or "going about to establish their own righteousness" all refer to works of merit and not working righteousness, Acts 10:35. Paul said one obeys unto righteousness, Rom 6:16 and Paul does not contradict himself.

 

[Davies]

So according one can be saved while in a sinful state?

I'm not answering for Jethro, but I would suggest Romans 5:10

Romans 5:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

- Davies

 

[rrowell]

How can one be in a legal sinful state if they believe that their sin guilt has been wiped away in Christ?

A progressive life of increasing sinlessness is how we KNOW a person's legal sin guilt has been wiped away.

How do you believe one wipes away these sins? is there more than one way?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass,

How does one come to obedience? How does one have faith?

We have an example in Acts 2 and those Peter preached to. Peter preached the gospel to them while convicting them of murdering the Messiah with thier wicked hands....so they heard the gospel, Rom 10:14-17. So upon hearing the gospel they in thier own hearts believed what Peter said to them, they were pricked in thier hearts so much so they asked what they must do. Those that believe in faith only would have told them "Do nothing else you are trying to merit your salvation". Of course this would be the wrong answer, with the right answer being found in Acts 2:38.

We know that faith and the righteousness of God/Jesus are a gifts. That means we didn't do anything to earn them.

John 3:27

New King James Version (NKJV)

27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.


Did we do anything to get faith? We didn't. Does God grant us repentance? He does. Though repentance and obedience is required, we cannot bring this about without God's initiation. Jesus commanded us to be perfect. How can we be perfect in the flesh? We can be perfect in Jesus. So when Jesus tells us to be perfect like our Father is in Heaven, He's saying put your faith in Me. Depending on what we believe, our faith will determine what we do; and what we do will show the world what we believe. Of course, to view someone's motivation is next to impossible, so we have the exhortation to not judge one another or even ourselves.

Gifts come with conditions. In Jn 6:27 Jesus said "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but (labour) for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus said He gives everlasting life so it's free, but He also said to work for it. Is Jesus contradicting Himself by saying work for something He gives for free? No, for free gifts can and do come with conditions and meeting those condtions does not earn the free gift. Jesus has already offered everlasting life to you, me and everyone else up front and for free whether we desire to have that free gift or not. So how can we ever earn something that has already been offered to us up front for free? We can't. We can only meet conditions placed upon that already free gift.

Another example of this is Naaman. He was offered for free up front a cleansing for his disease. He could have just walked away and rejected that free gift. But that free gift was something he desired. BUt to get it he must dip seven times in the Jordan river. Did the dipping earn the cleansing? No for how could it when it was already offered by grace to him for free? Again he could have rejected the free gift.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court.[a] In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

- Davies

You posted "Did we do anything to get faith? We didn't. Does God grant us repentance? He does. Though repentance and obedience is required, we cannot bring this about without God's initiation."

I reject this theology for if people are faithless, unrepentant, and disobedient, then whose fault is that? It's God's for you are taking the ability to have faith, be repentant and obedient from man. I have no control over it for I can only be that way if I am lucky enough to have God 'initate' it in me. Man has been told to repent confess and be baptized implying that man as both the ability within him to do so and repsonsibility to do so and if he does not it's his own fault and not a fault and failure of God's.

You posted: "Jesus commanded us to be perfect. How can we be perfect in the flesh? We can be perfect in Jesus. So when Jesus tells us to be perfect like our Father is in Heaven, He's saying put your faith in Me."

Paul in Eph 1:4 said the Christian is to be holy and without blame and Peter said the Christian is to be found spotless and blameless. The only way one can be spotless and blameless is by being in Christ and covered by Christ's perfect righteousness. So the queston now is how does one get in Christ? OBEDIENCE to God's will by submitting to baptism, Gal 3:27. Doing nothing (faith only) doe snot get one in Christ, saying a sinner's prayer does not get one in Christ. NOT A SINGLE VERSE says faith only gets one in Christ.

 

[reba]

My view on works is sorta like this....

Weddings sorta like salvation it happens your married
Marriage is like our walk with Him.... Marriage needs to be worked on, bring home flowers, cook a favorite, be kind, be honest being good it in-laws is like being good to our brothers and sisters in the Lord.
If we are walking with him we are doing good stuff... yup we goof up and like in a good marriage there is forgiveness...

Seems we can repent and be saved or be saved and repent. I well know I have repented while I was saved. I doubt very much it matters to the Lord how we word stuff He looks on our hearts, not our brains.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

My view on works is sorta like this....

Weddings sorta like salvation it happens your married
Marriage is like our walk with Him.... Marriage needs to be worked on, bring home flowers, cook a favorite, be kind, be honest being good it in-laws is like being good to our brothers and sisters in the Lord.
If we are walking with him we are doing good stuff... yup we goof up and like in a good marriage there is forgiveness...

Seems we can repent and be saved or be saved and repent. I well know I have repented while I was saved. I doubt very much it matters to the Lord how we word stuff He looks on our hearts, not our brains.

One is not legally married until he first does the work of going to the courthouse and paying the fee and signing the documents.

Faith only says your married by doing nothing or for no particular reason, then after you are married then you go to the courthouse and pay the fee and sign the legal papers. Faith only has it all backwards.

 

[Davies]

...so they heard the gospel, Rom 10:14-17. So upon hearing the gospel they in thier own hearts believed what Peter said to them

I don't think you are suggesting that God did not give them to gift of faith to believe what Peter was preaching them. So the question would still stand, why did God grant them the ability to do it. I don't think we can know the answer to that question, but a better response would be to show gratefulness that God did have mercy on them?

Another example of this is Naaman. He was offered for free up front a cleansing for his disease. He could have just walked away and rejected that free gift. But that free gift was something he desired. BUt to get it he must dip seven times in the Jordan river. Did the dipping earn the cleansing? No for how could it when it was already offered by grace to him for free? Again he could have rejected the free gift.

If I remember right, Naaman was ready to go back home, but on the persistence of his assistant, he finally did go to the Jordon. There was nothing that Naaman could boast about even to the coming to the Jordon river.

You posted "Did we do anything to get faith? We didn't. Does God grant us repentance? He does. Though repentance and obedience is required, we cannot bring this about without God's initiation."

I reject this theology for if people are faithless, unrepentant, and disobedient, then whose fault is that? It's God's for you are taking the ability to have faith, be repentant and obedient from man. I have no control over it for I can only be that way if I am lucky enough to have God 'initate' it in me. Man has been told to repent confess and be baptized implying that man as both the ability within him to do so and repsonsibility to do so and if he does not it's his own fault and not a fault and failure of God's.

Romans 9:19-20

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?†20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?â€


God makes His own determination, and if a person isn't saved, we know that God did the right thing because He is holy.

2 Timothy 2:25

New King James Version (NKJV)

25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

You posted: "Jesus commanded us to be perfect. How can we be perfect in the flesh? We can be perfect in Jesus. So when Jesus tells us to be perfect like our Father is in Heaven, He's saying put your faith in Me." Paul in Eph 1:4 said the Christian is to be holy and without blame and Peter said the Christian is to be found spotless and blameless. The only way one can be spotless and blameless is by being in Christ and covered by Christ's perfect righteousness. So the queston now is how does one get in Christ? OBEDIENCE to God's will by submitting to baptism, Gal 3:27. Doing nothing (faith only) doe snot get one in Christ, saying a sinner's prayer does not get one in Christ. NOT A SINGLE VERSE says faith only gets one in Christ.

I would say it is the obedience of faith, the gift that God through His sovereignty has granted.
Romans 5:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


We should be doing the same thing as Peter, proclaiming the Gospel to everyone. Peter didn't persuade the Jews to repent, though you can say he was trying. I think it's important to give the conversion credit to the Holy Spirit. You know as well as I do it is a miracle that anyone believes in Jesus.

Though we are obedient to God in believing in Him, it is only done because God works in us to will and to do according to His pleasure. The will to be obedient is not a product of us, thus we have to give credit to God alone for our obedience. Philippians 2:13


- Davies

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't think you are suggesting that God did not give them to gift of faith to believe what Peter was preaching them. So the question would still stand, why did God grant them the ability to do it. I don't think we can know the answer to that question, but a better response would be to show gratefulness that God did have mercy on them?

Grant would be in the sense of give the opportunity as in Acts 11 God granted the Gentiles repentance unto life. Repentance is a like a gift given to the Gentiles a free gift they culd acsept it by repenting and be saved or reject it and remain lost. It was within thier ability to repent. In Acts 2:38 Peter commanded his hearers to repent and the imperative implies the hearers had both ability and responsibiity to obey.

If I remember right, Naaman was ready to go back home, but on the persistence of his assistant, he finally did go to the Jordon. There was nothing that Naaman could boast about even to the coming to the Jordon river.

My point was his cleansing could not be earned by his dipping but the dipping was a condition on a free gift.

Romans 9:19-20

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?†20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?â€


God makes His own determination, and if a person isn't saved, we know that God did the right thing because He is holy.

Paul is not arguing God made the Jews disobedient unconditionally against their will.

The Jews argued if God could use their disobedience to accomplish His will (God did use thier disobedience in crucifying the Messiah) then why could God find fault with them? God does use man's rebellion to accomplish His will but He does not cause man to rebel man for rebels of his own choice. The Jews though God has some obligation to reckon them righteous for using their disobedience....one commentor puts it "that God has no right to make use of him (or his wickedness) without crediting him with doing God's will. It is as if he were saying: "God has no right to use me and then punish me since I carried out his purposes. I mustn't be used this way. I have rights".'

2 Timothy 2:25

New King James Version (NKJV)

25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,


I would say it is the obedience of faith, the gift that God through His sovereignty has granted.
Romans 5:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


We should be doing the same thing as Peter, proclaiming the Gospel to everyone. Peter didn't persuade the Jews to repent, though you can say he was trying. I think it's important to give the conversion credit to the Holy Spirit. You know as well as I do it is a miracle that anyone believes in Jesus.

Though we are obedient to God in believing in Him, it is only done because God works in us to will and to do according to His pleasure. The will to be obedient is not a product of us, thus we have to give credit to God alone for our obedience. Philippians 2:13


- Davies

Again, if the only way I can have faith is if God gives it to me,then whose fault is it I have no faith? God's fault, yet God is not culpalbe for man being lost for if man is lost he is 'without excuse'. But he would have excuse if God failed to give him faith. Why are men commanded to belive as the jailer if believing were an impossible thing for them to do? It makes the command worthless,useless and senseless. Peter COMMANDED the Jews to repent, the command made repentance a necessity in their being saved. They could have disobeyed by not repetning and remained lost in thier sins.

Phil 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. "
Phil 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure."

From verse 12 [that goes with verse 13] they were "always obeying" and thereby working out their own salvation. God works in them that are obeying Him. The Philippians were not disobeying God, not working out thier salvation yet God was still working in them. God tells me to believe repent confess and be baptized and I obey what God says, then God is working in me.

 

[Davies]

Grant would be in the sense of give the opportunity as in Acts 11 God granted the Gentiles repentance unto life. Repentance is a like a gift given to the Gentiles a free gift they culd acsept it by repenting and be saved or reject it and remain lost. It was within thier ability to repent. In Acts 2:38 Peter commanded his hearers to repent and the imperative implies the hearers had both ability and responsibiity to obey.

My point was his cleansing could not be earned by his dipping but the dipping was a condition on a free gift.

I would credit God for their obedience. In their free will they chose to sin(both Naaman and the Jews), just as we do today. This is the lesson we should have learned from Adam and Eve. In their free will, they made a decision without God, and of no fault of our own, we find ourselves in Adam. Live the perfect life, and you(general sense) still won't be justified by what you do, because you are found in Adam.

Paul is not arguing God made the Jews disobedient unconditionally against their will.

Paul did teach the Jews and Gentiles were disobedient without their contribution.

Romans 11:32

New King James Version (NKJV)

32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.


This was the plan of God at the foundation of the world. This way, God could display His attributes of mercy, and grace, and His glory. I believe God did this knowing that many people would not receive the pardon for their sins, but it was worth the price not to mention the putting to death the second Person of the Trinity, Jesus.

Why are men commanded to belive as the jailer if believing were an impossible thing for them to do? It makes the command worthless,useless and senseless. Peter COMMANDED the Jews to repent, the command made repentance a necessity in their being saved. They could have disobeyed by not repetning and remained lost in thier sins.

Luke 18:27

New King James Version (NKJV)

27 But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”


The command is worthless if man attempts to do anything without God, but with God, even faith and repentance are possible.

Phil 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. "
Phil 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure."

From verse 12 [that goes with verse 13] they were "always obeying" and thereby working out their own salvation. God works in them that are obeying Him. The Philippians were not disobeying God, not working out thier salvation yet God was still working in them. God tells me to believe repent confess and be baptized and I obey what God says, then God is working in me.

I would suggest the reason why someone obeys, gets baptized, and works out their salvation, is because God is working in them. Outside of God, there is nothing good in man.

Romans 7:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.


The reason why Paul cannot find the how to perform what is good is because it is God's work, not his, righteousness by faith.

Ernest, thank you for the discussion. I know we disagree, but in the spirit of learning from the Scriptures, as rrowell suggested, I hope we can learn from God. Unfortunately, off to work I go.

- Davies

 

[Webb]

All of Acts 11:18 must be kept in context of the entire verse as well as the entire context of Acts 10 and 11. The context is that of confirming to the Jewish mind the fact that the Gentile was to be the recepient of the gospel as well, thus God allows the gentile repentance as well the Jew. The "gift" given is not that of repentance but the baptism of the Holy Spirit to he gentile (vs.15-17). In real estate they have a saying: "location is every thing, location, location, location". In Bible study its: "context is everything, context, context, context".

 

[savedbygrace57]

This in not Biblical nonsense because there is nothing Biblical about it, its rather, religious nonsense. JESUS said in Luke 13:3, "--except ye repent, ye shall ALL (emp. mine) LIKEWISE (emp.mine) perish. How many is ALL? What meaneth the word "except"?

I believe Lk 13:3 But it says nothing about those Christ died for not being already forgiven before they believe or when they are born as sinners.

Man repenting is not what forgives sins, Christ blood does ! Also man repenting is works, something done by man, so i take it you believe in salvation by works also !

 

[savedbygrace57]

So are you trying to say a man is saved in unbelief?

Eph 2:8-9

 

[Webb]

All of Acts 11:18 must be kept in context of the entire verse as well as the entire context of Acts 10 and 11. The context is that of confirming to the Jewish mind the fact that the Gentile was to be the recepient of the gospel as well, thus God allows the gentile repentance as well the Jew. The "gift" given is not that of repentance but the baptism of the Holy Spirit to he gentile (vs.15-17). In real estate they have a saying: "location is every thing, location, location, location". In Bible study its: "context is everything, context, context, context".

I believe Lk 13:3 But it says nothing about those Christ died for not being already forgiven before they believe or when they are born as sinners.

Man repenting is not what forgives sins, Christ blood does ! Also man repenting is works, something done by man, so i take it you believe in salvation by works also !

Of course it "says nothing" for the reason its not in the scripture . Of course "man repenting is not what forgives sins", yet repentance must be for without it no one can be saved. "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins", Acts 2:38. And, NO, I do not believe in "salvation by works". AND, anything God tells you to do is not a work of human merit but a work of God, Jn.6:29.

 

[savedbygrace57]

web

Of course it "says nothing"

Ok then !

 

[Webb]

web



Ok then !

"OK then"?? It says nothing because the scripture says "nothing" to support your doctrine.

 

[savedbygrace57]

webb

OK then"??

Ok then ?

 

[CORE]

Ok then children...

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:1-6

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But if faith does not include repentance, confession and baptism does that mean the unrepentant, the one who denies Christ and the one who has not had his sins remitted still have access to receive God's grace?

Who are we to judge who still has, or who doesn't have, opportunity to answer the call of God when the voice of God (faith) comes calling them into the grace of God to be saved?

Until a person changes their mind about their situation with God (repent) they are showing that they have NOT believed the message of faith about the forgiveness of sin through Christ.

One absolutely does not have access to grace with a faith void of repentance, confession and baptism for a dead, void faith cannot access anything.

That's basically what James says, although, he and others teach that 'love your neighbor as yourself' is the real teller of who has the grace of God in their lives by faith in Christ, and who does not. Ceremonial actions really don't prove a thing, and don't give an ounce of confidence that you've been justified by the blood of Christ, but that's the stuff of another thread perhaps.

But, anyway, the error you make is thinking the action of faith is what actually makes you have right standing before God. No, your faith, your trust in the blood of Christ to forgive your sins, did that all by itself. The work that accompanies someone who believes (has faith their sins are forgiven in Christ) shows us and them that their faith is genuine and really did lay hold of the forgiveness of Christ making them legally righteous in God's sight and will therefore be saved on the Day of Wrath. Faithful action is the expected and obligatory expression of the faith that justifies.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 6------obedience----------------->justifes
Rom 5------faith---------------------->justifies

You're misreading the Romans 6 passage. As I said before, Paul is saying when we obey, more and more, we are being sanctified, not justified:

"For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification." (Romans 6:19 NASB)

When we obey, increasing more and more in that obedience, we are being made holy, that is, more and more set apart in our literal behaviors, not our legal standing before God.

"...by one sacrifice he has made perfect (justified) forever those who are being made holy (sanctified--more and more)." (Hebrews 10:14 NIV1984)

...since there is one way to be justifed/saved, faith must include obeying that form of doctrine as the Romans fiath inlcuded obedience.

Two things: Faith surely does include obedience, for obedience is the expected and obligatory result of faith, or it isn't genuine faith. (It's like saying 'I went swimming', but the expected and obligatory result of going swimming--being wet--must be present for the 'I went swimming' part to be validated as true). But, this in no way means we are made legally righteous before God (justified) by that expected and obligatory action of genuine faith. It SHOWS that we have the faith that solicits the righteousness of God all by itself apart from what we do.

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"
James 2:24 " Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

I will prove it to you again if you want me to. If you believe that James is saying we MAKE ourselves have right standing with God by what we do instead of SHOW ourselves to have that right standing before God by what we do then we have no choice to conclude, based on the context of James' teaching, that you think justification IS by works of the law.

 

[Mike]

I don't expect that this will be settled until our Lord returns. But I do have a few questions for the staunch legalists to help me understand their stance.

Rrowell, Ernest, or Webb... Would you affirm this statement? The blood of Christ was insufficient.

Do you believe Christ's sacrifice was insufficient for our sins? If so, is this to say we possess the ability to do what His sacrifice could not?

Ephesians 1:1-14