Is belief "works"?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Neither A nor B.

repentance is not "penance". It isn't doing a list of things or even doing some vague, different thing. A repentance is a turn.
confession is not what's done in a little box with a priest.
baptism is not washing dirt off the body, but a good conscience's plea before God

All are faith; all are pistis. They're ontologically the same thing.

You've been promoting "B". But if it is not "A" then you are saying one can be saved BEFORE they beleive, repent, confess and are baptized, or in other words, youare saying one can be saved in unbelief, while unrepentant, while still denying Christ and saved while still lost in his unremitted sins.

Repentance is doing something for is is not merely a change in mind but a change in ones action/way of life. In Mt 12:41 Jesus said Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonas. And in Jonah 3 the king of Nineveh lead the people to rpent in sackcloth and verse 10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not."

Confessing with the mouth unto salvation, Rom 10:9-10 so confessionis UNTO salvation not because of salvation and ofcourse confessing withthe mouth is doing something and not a mere assent of the mind. I remember about a couple of months ago driving home from work one night scanning thru the radio stations and heard a man yelling. I turned back to that station to see what the yelling was about. It turned out to be a 'radio evangelist' (Baptist IIRC) trying to turn the word "mouth" in Rom 10:9-10 into "heart" and pervert and wrest the scriptures all in order to avoid "doing something" to be saved. Rather pathetic I thought so I hit the radio scan button again and moved on.

Submitting to water baptism is doing something and not merely something one just thinks about.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm pretty sure Ernest says our works are what literally justify us (MAKE us righteous before God).

I have never said works in and of themselves justify, so you are still creating strawmen.

James did say "Was not Abraham our father justified by works" James 2:21 and "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" James 2:24

So you are in 100% disagreement with what James said. James never said works apart from God justify. God justifies but He justifes only those that have obedient works so in that sense is why James said "works justify". And obedient works do justify for God said they justify for God justifies those that have obedient works. Can you show me that example of one living under Christ's NT that was justified BEFORE he did the works of believing, repenting, confessing with the mouth and submitting to baptism, that is, justified while still in unbelief, justified while still unrepentant, justified while still denying Christ, justified while still lost in his unremitted sins?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You're right, it is a problem.

Paul says a man is justified by faith all by itself.

You could not prove this even if your life depended upon it.

Rom 10:9-10 Paul said believe in the heart AND confess with the mouth, so this one passage just blows faith only out of the water. If faith does not contain confession then that faith is dead and cannot save...."Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue:" The chief rulers had a dead belief only for it did not contain confession.

It is very evident how you changed what Paul said in Rom 10:9-10 to avoid the force of his words.

Being saved and justified is the samething. Show me a saved person who was not justified or a justified person who was not saved?

Paul said in Romans we are justified by faith. If being justifed is not saved, then faith does not save.

 

[P31Woman]

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

It appears to me that Paul's understanding is that belief was not a work.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

It appears to me that Paul's understanding is that belief was not a work.

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was an example of one who "worketh not, but believeth". But Abraham had an obedient working belief, Heb 11:8. So Paul was not/could not be excluding a working belief else he contradicts himself, but he was excluding works of merit when he said "worketh not". Verse 4 shows that Paul was speaking about works of merit that the worker does and not obedient works.

Therefore in Rom 4:5 Paul is CONTRASTING works of merit against obedient works such as belief as he did the same in Rom 10:3 CONTRASTING works of merit against submitting/obeying the righteousness of God as believing and confessing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You could not prove this even if your life depended upon it.

Rom 10:9-10 Paul said believe in the heart AND confess with the mouth, so this one passage just blows faith only out of the water. If faith does not contain confession then that faith is dead and cannot save...."Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue:" The chief rulers had a dead belief only for it did not contain confession.

It is very evident how you changed what Paul said in Rom 10:9-10 to avoid the force of his words.

Being saved and justified is the samething. Show me a saved person who was not justified or a justified person who was not saved?

Paul said in Romans we are justified by faith. If being justifed is not saved, then faith does not save.

You're still not listening.

You don't know the difference between being justified and being saved.

I will be back later tonight, hopefully.
I will attempt to show you the error of your logic again. The error in thinking that what saves is also what justifies. If you really understood the meaning of 'justify' you'd realize that Paul is NOT saying that which saves is also which justifies.

 

[Davies]

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

It appears to me that Paul's understanding is that belief was not a work.

Hi P31Woman,

What I've been trying to explain to the others here is that only the righteousness of Jesus is what justifies a person before God, and it is only by God's grace and power that a person believes or has faith. So, we have to give credit to God for even our faith. We will act naturally based on what we have. If we have faith in Jesus, then we will act accordingly. If we don't have faith in Jesus, we will act accordingly. I think we should give all the glory to God, not only for our salvation, but even the ability to acquire salvation. Even if you equate faith with work, we still have to remember that it is the righteousness of Jesus, alone, that justifies a person before God. The rest of what we do is sanctification or the process whereby we are transformed into the image of Jesus.

- Davies

 

[reba]

Nicely said Davies

 

[heymikey80]

You've been promoting "B".

Clearly I haven't. I've constantly denied this, and you keep repeating the falsehood as if it's true.

Were I unto lying I might attack your position as trying to work your way into heaven. But that would also be false.

It's a sin to bear false witness about someone else's position. That's why I don't do what you're doing.

But if it is not "A" then you are saying one can be saved BEFORE they beleive, repent, confess and are baptized, or in other words, youare saying one can be saved in unbelief, while unrepentant, while still denying Christ and saved while still lost in his unremitted sins.

No I'm not. I'm saying "not A" and "not B". Please, don't get into black & white thinking. There aren't two answers: certainly not for this.

Repentance is doing something for it is not merely a change in mind but a change in ones action/way of life.

Did I say it was "merely a change of mind"? No, I didn't. But there's more to Man than flesh and mind. There's will, heart, emotions, passion. Repentance definitely does refer to more than just thinking. But it definitely does not demand works.

In Mt 12:41 Jesus said Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonas. And in Jonah 3 the king of Nineveh led the people to repent in sackcloth and verse 10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not."

God began with works, that the wickedness of Nineveh had cried up before Him.

The lapse in those evil works turned God's hand away from punishing Nineveh at that time. Their wickedness subsided.

Oh. you thought Nineveh was actually saved? Tell me where Scripture says that. Nahum 2-3 might be informative. They weren't saved. God's Hand was only stayed for a time.

"Not everything is soteriology."

Confessing with the mouth unto salvation, Rom 10:9-10 so confession is UNTO salvation not because of salvation and of course confessing with the mouth is doing something and not a mere assent of the mind.

The problem here is, logical contradiction is just around the corner: "Poor mute people. They're all cursed so not even God could save them." No, this clearly logical result doesn't wash. So it falls purely on its own inconsistency.

The alternative is much clearer: Paul is simply using a typical example, not some kind of cause/effect textbook.

I remember about a couple of months ago driving home from work one night scanning thru the radio stations and heard a man yelling. I turned back to that station to see what the yelling was about. It turned out to be a 'radio evangelist' (Baptist IIRC) trying to turn the word "mouth" in Rom 10:9-10 into "heart" and pervert and wrest the scriptures all in order to avoid "doing something" to be saved. Rather pathetic I thought so I hit the radio scan button again and moved on.

Implying he is me is disingenuous.

Submitting to water baptism is doing something and not merely something one just thinks about.

Yeah, but it's absurd to think water baptism saves -- especially when Peter declares the action of water baptism doesn't save. 1 Peter 3:21

 

[Osgiliath]

What I've been trying to explain to the others here is that only the righteousness of Jesus is what justifies a person before God, and it is only by God's grace and power that a person believes or has faith. So, we have to give credit to God for even our faith. We will act naturally based on what we have. If we have faith in Jesus, then we will act accordingly. If we don't have faith in Jesus, we will act accordingly. I think we should give all the glory to God, not only for our salvation, but even the ability to acquire salvation. Even if you equate faith with work, we still have to remember that it is the righteousness of Jesus, alone, that justifies a person before God. The rest of what we do is sanctification or the process whereby we are transformed into the image of Jesus.

- Davies

Very nicely said :nod

Nothing else needs to be said in this thread ;). You said it all. I hope everyone reads that, and I will earnestly pray they do. Amen.

• Ephesians 2:4 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God,
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Davies]

Very nicely said :nod

Nothing else needs to be said in this thread. You said it all. I hope everyone reads that, and I will earnestly pray they do. Amen.

• Ephesians 2:4 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God,
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Hi Osgiliath,

Although we have difficult passages in Scripture to discern, more often than not, the Scriptures are plain to read. The passages in Ephesians you shared are among those that are plain to read. I do believe this thread to be overextended, but it never gets old explaining the Gospel, and as God shows us the depths of His grace through the ages, we will come to the understanding of the unending depths of Jesus' work on the cross. To imagine that God's grace is unending with revelation upon revelation to eternity should put to rest the idea that we deserve anything by what we do, even to the putting of our faith in Jesus.

- Davies

 

[Butch5]

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

It appears to me that Paul's understanding is that belief was not a work.

Hi P31Woman,

In this argument Paul is talking about the works of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Butch5]

Very nicely said :nod

Nothing else needs to be said in this thread ;). You said it all. I hope everyone reads that, and I will earnestly pray they do. Amen.

• Ephesians 2:4 "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the gift of God,
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Hi Osgoliath,

In this argument in Ephesians Paul is addressing the issue of works of the Mosaic Law, not good deeds. The issue is between the Mosaic law (of yourselves) and faith (not of yourselves). He's not arguing that good deeds play no role in Salvation.

 

[heymikey80]

Hi Osgoliath,

In this argument in Ephesians Paul is addressing the issue of works of the Mosaic Law, not good deeds. The issue is between the Mosaic law (of yourselves) and faith (not of yourselves). He's not arguing that good deeds play no role in Salvation.

Paul doesn't mention Mosaic Law here, and it doesn't make sense here anyway.

If Jesus took away the Mosaic Law in v. 15, that occurred through Jesus' Crucifixion -- long before the conversion of Gentiles described in Eph 2:1-2.

Why would Eph 2:6-10 be talking about Mosaic Law anyway? Paul's talking about Gentiles, not Jews.

 

[Butch5]

It may be that some would be willing but do not have the ability? That's me.

Hi Deborah13,

Getting back to the issue of works, most Christians who claim works play no role in salvation simply quote Paul's words in Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 and 11. What's interesting is that they don't ever seem to notice the other passages that speak of works. For instance, in Ephesians 2 Paul says that Christians are created for good works. And in Romans he explicitly says that God will judge everyone based on their deeds and that doing good deed is seeking eternal life.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Rom 2:5-7 KJV)

Anyone who is being intellectually honest must reconcile these two passages. It's not proper hermeneutics or logic to simply dismiss them and pretend they don't exist. Romans 2 is particularly problematic for those who deny the salvific nature of works. Here we have Paul, the man they claim says works are not necessary for salvation, saying that those who do good deeds are seeking salvation. He's saying exactly what they claim he's teaching against. This is extremely problematic for them and as such they go to great lengths to explain away his words here. However, Ephesians 2 and Romans 2 are so simple to reconcile with just a little historical information and closer examination of the Scriptures. If you are interested we can discuss this at length and I can show you how they can be easily reconciled.

 

[Butch5]

Paul doesn't mention Mosaic Law here, and it doesn't make sense here anyway.

If Jesus took away the Mosaic Law in v. 15, that occurred through Jesus' Crucifixion -- long before the conversion of Gentiles described in Eph 2:1-2.

Why would Eph 2:6-10 be talking about Mosaic Law anyway? Paul's talking about Gentiles, not Jews.

You pointed it out yourself, it's in verse 15. They are not saved by works because Christ abolished the Law. If you look into the background of Paul's ministry You'll find that one of the biggest problems he faced was that of the Judaizers. These were Jews who were telling Paul's converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to keep the Law of Moses and be circumcised. This can be seen in Acts 15 and Galatians.

KJV Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. (Act 15:1-6 KJV)

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:1-5 KJV)

As we study Paul's writings we can see the evidences of this in them. There were those who taught his converts that faith in Christ was not enough, that they also needed to keep the Mosaic Law. That what chapter 15 of Acts and the Jerusalem council is about. In Ephesians 2 Paul tells his Gentile readers that they are "not" save by works so that no man can boast. He tells them no man can boast, what does he mean by this? Most Christians think he's talking about self effort, but he's not. He's talking about believers not being able to boast in their keeping of the Law. The Jews boasted that they were superior to the Gentiles because they kept the Law. Paul addresses this issue in Romans.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? (Rom 2:17-23 KJV)

As you read the rest of Ephesians 2 it becomes clear that he is talking about the separation between Jew and Gentile being done away with and the two being made one. He says Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition. He is speaking metaphorically of the wall in the temple that separated the Jews and the Gentiles.

 

[Osgiliath]

Hi Osgoliath,

In this argument in Ephesians Paul is addressing the issue of works of the Mosaic Law, not good deeds. The issue is between the Mosaic law (of yourselves) and faith (not of yourselves). He's not arguing that good deeds play no role in Salvation.

I agree. Good deeds certainly play a role, but ALL is of God:

• Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works (deeds) which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

"We" are not our workmanship (Greek: 'achievement'). We are His achievement. Christ in us does it all, and there is no room whatsoever for the flesh to boast. Both the faith and the deeds "are His achievement."

 

[CORE]

They are not saved by works because Christ abolished the Law.

I just had to chime in again because I thinks it's important to note that Christ came to fulfill the Law rather than to abolish it. (Matthew 5:17)

 

[Butch5]

I agree. Good deeds certainly play a role, but ALL is of God:

• Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works (deeds) which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

"We" are not our workmanship (Greek: 'achievement'). We are His achievement. Christ in us does it all, and there is no room whatsoever for the flesh to boast. Both the faith and the deeds "are His achievement."

I have to disagree. If Christ does all of the good works then there would be no need to admonish believers to continue in good works. Additionally, I don't see how James could say that Abraham was justified by works if it was all done by God or Christ.

 

[Butch5]

I just had to chime in again because I thinks it's important to note that Christ came to fulfill the Law rather than to abolish it. (Matthew 5:17)

He did, however, Paul says He abolished it. I don't think he means it has been negated but rather is put away or annulled.