Is belief "works"?

[Jethro Bodine]

Then THAT is the ONLY promise he had faith in. How can someone have faith in something he has no knowledge of? This just keeps getting sadder and more fallacious as we go on.

"Come on, baby. Let's do the twist. Come on, baaaaaaaby. Let's do the twist..."

We are not talking about us, we are talking about what saved/justified Abraham and whether he was justified in Gen. 12.

Abraham had faith in the promise of a son who would inherit the blessing on his behalf. That is the faith that justifies. That is the promise that we, also, put our faith in and are justified by.

Wow. What a convoluted mess. Abraham had faith of God's promise of a son (Isaac). Sarah was barren and old, so childbirth was "impossible". He believed God could do what He promised and so was justified. This is what Scripture plainly says, so, no, I don't "understand" non-Scriptural gobbledegook. I would ask you to prove FROM SCRIPTURE that Abraham's justification came from his faith IN CHRIST...

Again, Abraham had faith in the promise of a son who would inherit the blessing on his behalf. That is the faith that justifies. That is the promise that we, also, put our faith in and are justified.

You're making this waaaay too hard for yourself.

Then, by definition, he couldn't have put his faith in "the Seed". At best, what you have here is that Abraham was justified by faith in a promise of a son whose lineage would eventually dwell in the land promised. How in the world does this equate into faith in Christ?

Christ is that seed. Christ is the full and complete fulfillment of that promise. Abraham, Issac, and Jacob all had faith that God would keep his promise...and were justified by that faith. It is the same for us. That is what Paul teaches.

Demonize it, and twist it all you want. This is not hard.

Again, we are not talking about US, but about what JUSTIFIED ABRAHAM.

Abraham was justified by his faith in the promises made to him. So are we when we place our faith in the promises made to Abraham. Promises we now know the full details about that he did not. You have read Galatians 3, right?

Of course it is. The details are ALL that matter. He believed that God could do the IMPOSSIBLE. He could bring forth a son from an old man and a barren, old woman. He was performing a miracle. Are you kidding me? If God had come to Jacob when he was in his 20's and said "you will have a son", would he have been "justified" for believing that a fertile 20 year old could bear children?

Against all hope we also believe that God will do the impossible--provide a Son that will inherit the blessing on our behalf. Because honest and humble people know there is absolutely no way to inherit that blessing through what we do.

Nice slight of hand. The revelation about "God's promised Son" (capital "S") wasn't given to Abraham. Let me say that again. God didn't reveal His plans for a DIVINE SON to Abraham. God didn't reveal to ANYONE IN THE OT that He planned to send the Second Person to inherit a blessing. Sorry, but you are flailing here.

No, you are failing plain Biblical teaching. We are justified when we believe that God will surely keep his promise about a son coming from our own bodies that will inherit the blessings of God on our behalf. That is how a person is justified, not by doing other righteous things. That is what the Bible teaches.

The promise of the Spirit was GIVEN to Christ.

Now you know what it means that Christ inherited the blessing on our behalf. We enjoy that blessing when we are included in the body of Christ, where God's favor rests, by that Holy Spirit.

Because the words "Seed" and promise" are in the same verses, doesn't mean Paul is saying that Abraham had faith in "the Seed". More flailing...

Abraham had faith in God's promise of a seed. Why are you making this so hard?

Right, a son named Isaac. Simply prove this by Scripture, that Abraham was justified by faith in "the Seed". This is what you are hopelessly trying to prove in an attempt to "prove" that the faith spoken of in Hebrews was NOT a "saving" faith, so you can keep your erroneous OSAS doctrine.

I do not subscribe to OSAS doctrine.

Don't broad stroke all the instances of faith in Hebrews 11 as not being saving faith. I'm not. The point is, I don't know the extent of revelation Abraham had about a son in Genesis 12, and neither do you. But that's not important, because the point is the blessing of redemption comes through faith in the promised seed.

We learn about Abraham's revelation of a son, the seed of promise, in Genesis 15. And that is where we are told that his faith in that promise is reckoned to him as righteousness. It's impossible to argue the point. Unless you can simply guide me to the passage that tells us he was made righteous at some point before that, okay? Not where he had faith before that, but where it plainly says that his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness before Genesis 15. That's all you have to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The fundamental problem with 'faith + works' salvation is you still have to perfect in everything you do to be justified that way, just as a person has to be perfect in all they do in a 'works' salvation. That's why justification can only come through the unmerited favor of God received through faith in Christ's blood alone, all by itself, apart from (other) work.

 

[gr8grace]

"Come on, baby. Let's do the twist. Come on, baaaaaaaby. Let's do the twist..."



Abraham had faith in the promise of a son who would inherit the blessing on his behalf. That is the faith that justifies. That is the promise that we, also, put our faith in and are justified by.



Again, Abraham had faith in the promise of a son who would inherit the blessing on his behalf. That is the faith that justifies. That is the promise that we, also, put our faith in and are justified.

You're making this waaaay too hard for yourself.




Christ is that seed. Christ is the full and complete fulfillment of that promise. Abraham, Issac, and Jacob all had faith that God would keep his promise...and were justified by that faith. It is the same for us. That is what Paul teaches.

Demonize it, and twist it all you want. This is not hard.




Abraham was justified by his faith in the promises made to him. So are we when we place our faith in the promises made to Abraham. Promises we now know the full details about that he did not. You have read Galatians 3, right?



Against all hope we also believe that God will do the impossible--provide a Son that will inherit the blessing on our behalf. Because honest and humble people know there is absolutely no way to inherit that blessing through what we do.



No, you are failing plain Biblical teaching. We are justified when we believe that God will surely keep his promise about a son coming from our own bodies that will inherit the blessings of God on our behalf. That is how a person is justified, not by doing other righteous things. That is what the Bible teaches.



Now you know what it means that Christ inherited the blessing on our behalf. We enjoy that blessing when we are included in the body of Christ, where God's favor rests, by that Holy Spirit.



Abraham had faith in God's promise of a seed. Why are you making this so hard?



I do not subscribe to OSAS doctrine.

Don't broad stroke all the instances of faith in Hebrews 11 as not being saving faith. I'm not. The point is, I don't know the extent of revelation Abraham had about a son in Genesis 12, and neither do you. But that's not important, because the point is the blessing of redemption comes through faith in the promised seed.

We learn about Abraham's revelation of a son, the seed of promise, in Genesis 15. And that is where we are told that his faith in that promise is reckoned to him as righteousness. It's impossible to argue the point. Unless you can simply guide me to the passage that tells us he was made righteous at some point before that, okay? Not where he had faith before that, but where it plainly says that his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness before Genesis 15. That's all you have to do.

Hi Jethro,

I do enjoy reading your posts, but I was rather shocked that you dont Hold to eternal security! So we do have to work to be saved? And I do apologize If I am Reading you wrong. Or if I missed something?

You dont believe eternal security? Again, I am sorry but that shocked me after following your posts.

 

[Webb]

Some search for the truth and find it, some stumble upon it accidently and some are forced to admit truth.

 

[gr8grace]

OR some are humble and let the Spirit teach em.

 

[heymikey80]

The fundamental problem with 'faith + works' salvation is you still have to perfect in everything you do to be justified that way, just as a person has to be perfect in all they do in a 'works' salvation. That's why justification can only come through the unmerited favor of God received through faith in Christ's blood alone, all by itself, apart from (other) work.

Oh, and I pretty-much agree with you that Abraham didn't know Jesus any more clearly than the historical record shows: the promises of God and focusing, relying intently on what God promised.

I do agree with Perseverance as a doctrine -- which is technically "once actually saved, always saved." That's not "once confessed, always saved", not even "once any kind of faith appears, always saved," which seems to me contradicted by Luke 8. But ... there're different kinds of faith -- and I'd side with the idea that a reliance principally on Jesus, resulting in New Birth, that can't be reversed.

 

[Webb]

OR some are humble and let the Spirit teach em.

Thats searching for the truth.

 

[gr8grace]

Thats searching for the truth.

Sorry webb i got the impression that you did not believe in the biblical truth of eternal security. I thought you were replying to my last comment. My bad.

 

[Webb]

Congratrs Jarrod, your impression was correct.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Jethro,

I do enjoy reading your posts, but I was rather shocked that you dont Hold to eternal security! So we do have to work to be saved? And I do apologize If I am Reading you wrong. Or if I missed something?

You dont believe eternal security? Again, I am sorry but that shocked me after following your posts.

I think Mikey explained it pretty good.

I subscribe more to an 'IF saved always saved' (ISAS) doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just stop distracting and answer the questions that apply to this thread.

I have done that. You're entitled to not accept those answers. Rejecting my answers doesn't mean I didn't answer them.

Now, all you have to do is show me where it says we are justified--made legally righteous before God--on the merit of work done (outside of the 'work' of believing, of course). That's all you have to do...and then we can unplug the coffee pot, put the lights out, and go home.

Good luck!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

... there're different kinds of faith -- and I'd side with the idea that a reliance principally on Jesus, resulting in New Birth, that can't be reversed.

It's interesting to note in my own life that I had faith and some obedience before being born again and changed into a new person. But it was hardly a faith that could justify me. I had not yet come to a complete and utter reliance on God's forgiveness knowing there was nothing I could do to get right with God. When my faith brought me to that point, that is when I was justified by my faith.

 

[gr8grace]

I think Mikey explained it pretty good.

I subscribe more to an 'IF saved always saved' (ISAS) doctrine.

Gotchya! I agree!

 

[gr8grace]

Congratrs Jarrod, your impression was correct.

JOH 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

The first two words in this sentence are very important to understand. When the Lord says, “Truly, truly” in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen” or “Truly, truly”, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly” is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. The phrase, “Truly, truly” or “Amen, amen” is used 25 times in the Bible, all found in the Gospel of Joh. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.


Notice in John 5:24 that it says, …does not come into judgment, …; it does not say ‘might not’, or ‘should not’ or ‘may not’, but emphatically, does not. In the original Greek, the verse is much clearer; it says, kai eis krisin ouk erchetai[and into judgment not comes]. The verb erchetai means to come or to arrive, and therefore, it is correctly translated in the New American Standard Bible as, does not come into judgment.

The word ouk is an interesting word. when you join ouk with any verb, it is used to strongly deny that what is being declared in the verb will ever happen to the subject of the sentence. The verb here is krisis, which indicates judgment. The subject is anyone who believes. Therefore, anyone who believes will never come into judgment! The judgment here is an eternal one, so we must conclude that once a person believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation.

JOH 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

In the original Greek, the word erchomai, translated come in the present tense, means that the scenario is habitually true or keeps on being true. The middle voice indicates that someone else has done the work, and the one who believes benefits from it. The indicative mood indicates that the statement is dogmatic and absolutely true! In fact, with “Truly, truly” or “Amen, amen” at the beginning of this statement, it becomes blasphemous for any believer to even think that someone can lose their salvation! What it does not say is that you may hope to have eternal life, providing that you continue to be faithful, or if you perform some series of works, as some believe.

 

[Webb]

Hi Jarrod

I could not agree more with your 1st paragraph. However, there is nothing in text of John 5:24 affirming that the transition from death to life is irrevocable. BTW, what are your Koine Greek credentials?

 

[gr8grace]

Hi Jarrod

I could not agree more with your 1st paragraph. However, there is nothing in text of John 5:24 affirming that the transition from death to life is irrevocable. BTW, what are your Koine Greek credentials?

My post Showed you that there IS affirmation that it IS irrevocable. You Just don't believe it and you do not have to. Prove to me that what I have said is wrong.

 

[Webb]

And, what are your Koine Greek credentials?

 

[gr8grace]

And, what are your Koine Greek credentials?

If you can prove to me that what I have said is wrong I will tell you my credentials. I believe that no matter what I tell you some excuse will come up as to why you should not even bother looking into what my post says. I believe that it scares you.

 

[Webb]

Jarrod, YOU are the one who introduced the Greek into this discussion, not I, and therefore you are responsible for your sources. I have no fear of either you or your posts.

 

[gr8grace]

Jarrod, YOU are the one who introduced the Greek into this discussion, not I, and therefore you are responsible for your sources. I have no fear of either you or your posts.

Webb we all are responsible to look into what the message SAYS. YOU keyed in on the Greek, and it is a debaters technique to take the focus off of the message and divert attention to something else. Agian you are responsible as a believer priest to test the message not the messenger. You obviously dont want to look into the message and turn the focus to the messenger.

I said what I said and it is up to you to look into the message.