Is belief "works"?

[Webb]

Are you suggesting God is not commanding people to 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NIV1984) anymore?

So, since we know he is indeed commanding us to do that in this New Covenant, how does it somehow escape being called a 'work of human righteousness or merit'?

Help us to understand what you're driving at.

Was it a work of human merit to do what God commanded in Lev.19:18 which was under Moses? When the same command is made under the new covenant is it a work of human merit to love your fellow man? Tell us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Was it a work of human merit to do what God commanded in Lev.19:18 which was under Moses? When the same command is made under the new covenant is it a work of human merit to love your fellow man? Tell us.

Unto justification? 'No', in both cases.

I'm just wondering what it is you're driving at when you say, "Any thing God tells us to DO is not a work of human righteousness or merit." Because that would most certainly include the various commands from the Law of Moses that we are still to keep today (through the new way of the Spirit, of course).

Just wondering.

 

[Webb]

Unto justification? 'No', in both cases.

I'm just wondering what it is you're driving at when you say, "Any thing God tells us to DO is not a work of human righteousness or merit." Because that would most certainly include the various commands from the Law of Moses that we are still to keep today (through the new way of the Spirit, of course).

Just wondering.

I didn't say anything about "justification" did I? And, I'm "just wondering" why you are not answering my questions, which if you would attempt to do I think would help you answer some of your own questions.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I didn't say anything about "justification" did I? And, I'm "just wondering" why you are not answering my questions, which if you would attempt to do I think would help you answer some of your own questions.

Correct, you did not say anything about justification, nor about anything else. That's why I had to ask.

And I did answer your question. I said, "'No', in both cases". And just so you understand, in case you don't, 'through the new way of the Spirit' means, of course, this New Covenant we live under.

 

[Webb]

Correct, you did not say anything about justification, nor about anything else. That's why I had to ask.

And I did answer your question. I said, "'No', in both cases". And just so you understand, in case you don't, 'through the new way of the Spirit' means, of course, this New Covenant we live under.

But I didn't ask you about "justification", so you answered something I didn't ask. I did, however ask: "Was it a work of human merit to do what God commanded in Lev.19:18 which was under Moses?" You did not answer. The same commandment (to love our neighbor) is again given in the NT and is identified as the 2nd great commandment. I now ask you, is it a work of human merit to love your neighbor as God commanded?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But I didn't ask you about "justification", so you answered something I didn't ask. I did, however ask: "Was it a work of human merit to do what God commanded in Lev.19:18 which was under Moses?" You did not answer.

How can I answer according to something you did not specify, and still have not specified? All I know at this point is what you are asking is not in regard to justification. Why are you being difficult? Get to your point so I don't have to be subject to your unfair accusations of not answering your question.

The same commandment (to love our neighbor) is again given in the NT and is identified as the 2nd great commandment. I now ask you, is it a work of human merit to love your neighbor as God commanded?

Yes, the manifest blessing of God is dependent on whether you obey, or not...if that's what you're talking about. I have to guess again because you still have not specified. It is most definitely to your merit to obey what God commands...so you can be blessed:

25 ...(T)he man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does." (James 1:25 NIV1984)

Just as the blessings given to the nation and people of God in the Promised Land were dependent on the obedience of the Israelites themselves, so also for us the blessings prepared and reserved for the people of God are dependent on us being obedient to that which God commands.

Is this what you're talking about? Just say so and let's put an end to your unfair guessing game.

 

[Webb]

Thats what I'm talking about, but you already knew that I'm sure. The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.

 

[ivdavid]

Romans 9 is the answer to the question in Rom 3:1.....what advantage does the Jew have then?

Isn't that stretching it a bit too far? Could you then explain Rom 3-8 to show how Paul has filled up all the intermediate text while still building up to the answer in Rom 9 to the question in Rom 3? I thought it was quite an unambiguous understanding that Rom 3:1 is the question Paul expected to follow Rom 2:26-27 just as Rom 6:1 is the question he expected to follow Rom 5:21.

And similarly, Rom 9-11 is his response to what he expected to follow Rom 8:1 -> if only those who are in Christ Jesus are saved(Rom 8:1) - then what of God's promises to the Jews and His election of Israel(Rom 9:4) - given that the Jews have rejected Christ(Rom 9:3)? Have God's promises failed - was His word to them of no effect - Paul responds to this objection in Rom 9:6.

Paul explains through Rom 9:7-13 that only those of Promise are the real Israel and God's word is fulfilled in these alone. But if it were only by God's Promise and not based on anything man has done or not done(Rom 9:11) - doesn't that seem unfair(Rom 9:14). God's mercy(Rom 9:15-16) is the response - backed up by Scripture(Rom 9:17-18). The next objection expected in Rom 9:19 is responded to in Rom 9:20-23 citing God's sovereignty and purpose in making known His glory.

The rest of Rom 9-10 proceeds to show God's justice in cutting off disobedient Israel while showing His mercy in His election of the gentiles to whom He gifted faith by grace - but God's election of Israel nevertheless stands(Rom 11:1,5) as seen in Rom 11:28-29. God's design here is summarized in Rom 11:32 and is followed by awe of His wisdom(Rom 11:33-36).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.

No question about it:

"The only thing that counts (toward justification--see context) is faith...

...(faith) expressing itself through (the obedience of) love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV1984 parenthesis mine)


"31 Do we, then, nullify (obedience to) the law by this faith (the faith that justifies apart from observing the law--vs.28)? Not at all! Rather, we uphold (keep, satisfy, fulfill) the law (through this faith that justifies apart from observing the law)." (Romans 3:31 NIV1984 )


The mistake is thinking that the obedience that accompanies saving faith is what actually justifies a person, making them righteous before God. Faith does that all by itself, apart from the performance of righteous work (Paul's argument for justification). Righteous work is how we know we have the faith that justifies all by itself (James' argument for justification).

 

[dadof10]

You sure didn't waste any time twisting what I said, lol.

This is sad. When did I twist anything? Here is the exchange:

Me: Abraham's faith was reckoned to him a righteousness. His faith was in God's promise to give him a child, not in "the Seed promised Eve", or in Christ. Certainly Abraham had the faith that justifies in Gen. 15, Paul says so. I know you believe this, so how does your view above square with the fact that Abraham was justified by his faith in God's promise of a son, not his faith in the Christ?

In answer to that question, and I suppose to counter my argument, you posted:

"16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,†meaning many people, but “and to your seed,†meaning one person, who is Christ." (Galatians 3:16 NIV1984)

Me, in the same post: Again, Paul says Abraham was justified by faith in God's promise of A son (Isaac), not THE Son of God (Jesus).

You, reaffirming that Gal. 3:16 was to counter my argument above:

And again I refer you to Galatians 3:16 NIV1984...

"16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,†meaning many people, but “and to your seed,†meaning one person, who is Christ."

Isn't your point here that this verse says Abraham was justified by FAITH IN THE "PROMISED SEED"? Isn't your point that "only the faith of believing/trusting in God's promise of the Promised Seed justifies/saves"?

Maybe you should explain your use of the verse instead of simply posting a verse without comment. How about some exegesis on this verse?

Wait, slow down and start listening to yourself. Paul is contrasting the promise of the Spirit that comes through what, dadof10? Plainly answer that without any of your twists and spins on it.

Faith. Not faith ALONE. Is that plain enough for you? The verse says "promise of the Spirit through faith", not "the promised SEED." This is the point of the verse, not that Abraham had faith in "the Seed promised Eve", which was your point.

..then show me in the Bible the scripture that I asked you to show me twice in my last post that says we are justified when we do righteous work.

And I've answered you twice. Here it is again, pasted from my last post:

"I have, and so have others here. Jesus says keeping the commandments leads to "eternal life". Paul says "woman will be saved through childbearing". James says Abraham was justified by his willingness to sacrifice his son and Rahab was justified by her dealings with the spies. Peter says baptism saves.

You twist these plain words in an attempt to fit them is your sola-fide mold."

Sound familiar? If you need more, or the chapters and verses, here you go:

James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified†(dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification†in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).
Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.
Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.†But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.†It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.
Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 - the faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.
Psalm 51:17 – this means we need a “broken and contrite heart,†not just an intellectual assent of faith. Faith in God is only the beginning.
John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith†and a “work of faith.†Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.
2 Cor. 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.
2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.
Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,†not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.
James 1:22-25 - it's the "doers" who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.†Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.†The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.
James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.†Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works†qualify the “faith†into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works†act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.†Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.
James 2:19 - even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.
James 2:20 - do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God's grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.â€
James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.

Cont...

 

[dadof10]

Cont...

James 4:17 - in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.
James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the "works" to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).
James 1:27 - another example of "works" is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.
James 2:25 - another example of "works" is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.
Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab's fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22-25, Rahab alone acted and was saved. This is faith in action.
James 2:18 - to avoid the truth of the Catholic position that we are justified by both faith and works, Protestants argue the justification that James is referring to in James 2 is "before men" and not "before God." Scripture disproves their claim.
James 2:14 - James asks, "Can faith save him?" Salvation comes from God. This proves the justification James is referring to is before God, not men.
James 2:19 - also, James reminds us that even the demons believe and tremble. This refers to our relationship with God, not with men. Thus, our justification that requires works and not faith alone relates to our status before God, not men.
James 2:21 - James also appeals to the example of Abraham. Abraham's justification refers to his position before God, not men. This proves justification is before God, not men.
Acts. 10:35 – Peter teaches that anyone who fears the Lord and does what is right is acceptable to Him. It is both fear and works, not fear alone.
Rom. 2:7,10 - to those who by patience and good works will be granted glory and honor and peace from the Lord.
Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ†in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law†in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ†is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law†mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).
Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.†Paul uses the word “alone†three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.†Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,†he would have done so.
Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good "work," an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.
2 Cor. 9:8 - Paul teaches that God will bless us so that we may provide in abundance for "every good work." Good works are encouraged to complete our faith.
Eph. 6:8 - whatever good anyone does will receive the same again from the Lord. God rewards good works done in grace.
Phil. 4:17 – Paul says “I seek the fruit which increases to your credit.†Fruits (good works) increase our justification. Paul says these works increase our “credit,†which is also called “merit.†These merits bring forth more graces from God, furthering increasing our justification as we are so disposed. But the fruits, works, and merits are all borne from God’s unmerited and undeserved mercy won for us by Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:8 - good deeds are excellent and profitable to men (just like the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Tim. 3:16). Good deeds further justify us before God. This verse should be contrasted with Titus 3:5, where we are not saved by works of righteousness “we have done.†As further discussed below, in this verse what “we have done†refers to a work of law or obligation for which we seek payment. But verse 5 also says the “washing of regeneration†in reference to baptism saves, which is a work of grace, for which we are rewarded by God in Christ. There is a distinction between “works of law or obligation†and “works of grace.â€
1 Peter 2:7-8; John 3:36 - shows that belief in Jesus means obeying Jesus. Having faith means being faithful, which requires good works as well. Hence, obeying Jesus means doing works of love, not just having faith alone.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

There are many other websites, both Catholic and Protestant, which give as good or better explanations, but this will do.

There. Two questions asked and answered. Will you return the favor?

Did you forget? In all your spinning are you forgetting, or confusing the arguments being made here...including your own?

And it keeps getting sadder.

You are the one that is sure that the law that Paul says can not justify a man is only speaking of the law of circumcision (and other ceremonial laws, too, I think), and thus defending James use of lawful commands to tell us that a man is justified by what he does (as if he's using 'justified' in the same meaning Paul is).

Again...I don't believe this, and again this is a purposeful distortion of my position because you can't deal with what I really believe.

Only if the faith spoken of--which was then seen in what it did--was faith in the promise made to Abraham of the Seed to come, who we now know to be Jesus.

OK. Simply show me how Gal. 3:16 proves this contention. Now is your chance to answer a question with a clear answer. Can you do it?

Remember, the chapter is an exhortation to persevere to the end...to 'live by faith to the end' even though you do not receive what is promised in this life, as these examples in Hebrews show us. You're trying to make it a chapter that proves that any and all faith, no matter what that faith is in, saves. Show me where it says this. That's all you have to do. I showed you where it's a teaching about persevering in faith (Hebrews 11:13, Hebrews 11:26, Hebrews 11:39) and are examples of people hoping in faith for that which they did not have (Romans 8:24) and did not receive while still alive.

OK. Here comes another chance. "Persevere to the end" in what kind of faith, Jethro? This is what we are discussing, whether the "faith" in Hebrews is a "saving faith". Is it your contention that the author of Hebrews is exhorting people to persevere in non-saving faith? This is yet another clue as to the nature of the faith being talked about. First there was the reference to Rahab and the faith she had, which James says "justified", then there is this "TEACHING" (your word) about perseverance. I think it's pretty obvious what "kind" of faith the author is talking about.

That Hebrews 11 is about "saving faith", is not in dispute by anyone but you. Catholic and Protestants agree, it's saving faith here.

It's not a teaching to teach us that any and all faith, no matter the object of that faith, justifies.

Again, that's not my point. There were saved people under the Old Covenant who were saved by faith IN GOD and obedience TO GOD.

But you have to make it that, even though it doesn't say that, to prove that Abraham was declared righteous prior to Genesis 15. The Bible doesn't say that. It simply doesn't. If it does show me. That's all you have to do.

All you have to do is show me where it says in the Bible he was declared righteous in Genesis 12 to show us what you say is true.

It's what we are discussing. Hebrews says Abraham had a "saving faith" in Gen. 12. Hebrews is a book of the Bible, therefore the Bible teaches it. Another question answered.

I'm confident that Abraham had faith in what he was told by God in Genesis 12. But for reasons we now know this side of Christ, God does not tell us he is reckoned as righteous by his faith until he learns about and believes in the specific promise of a son.

When Abraham "believed God" in Gen. 15, he was justified, correct? What did he "believe"? Let me give you a little hint:

"And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, "This man shall not be your heir; your own son shall be your heir." 5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed the LORD; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness." (Gen. 15)

Where does Abraham have faith in the "promised Seed" here, Jethro? Sad...

What does OSAS have to do with what I believe?

I posted a reply to either Davies or IvDavid, I can't remember which, on this subject. You decided to chime in, which is fine, but don't complain because I'm answering YOUR questions.

As it was for Abraham, so it is for us: A person is credited legal righteousness by their faith in God's promise of a Son (not by his obedience because of his faith in the promise of a Son, nor by the faith to simply go to church, or read a Bible, etc.). This is the very gospel message of God. Anyone teaching that a person is made righteous by having the faith to go to church, read a Bible, pray, etc. is teaching a false gospel...a gospel that can not save.

Thanks...

Now the point is, you have to persevere in the faith that justifies--faith in the promise of a Son, the promised Seed--to continue in the justification that faith provides and receive the reward of that perseverance.

Amen. This is what Hebrews 11 is teaching, correct, perseverance in "saving faith"?

This is not a continual re-justifying. I'm not saying this for your benefit because you just blew it off the other times it was shown to you in the Bible.

No I didn't.

I'm saying it for the benefit of anyone else reading who doesn't know this and is looking for the truth (I'm using your erroneous doctrine as a spring board to do that). Hebrews 10 speaks of being made perfect in God's sight one time, forever by the sacrifice of Christ, not a series of times of being justified (made legally perfect) before God:

10 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?

14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:1-2, 14 NASB)

The point of Hebrews is that you must continue in your faith in that one time declaration of perfection (justification)in order to remain in that one time declaration of righteousness.

Then, the faith being talked about in Hebrews 11 is "saving faith".

So you can see this has nothing to do with OSAS.

Isn't this what you just described? Isn't that what "being made perfect in God's sight one time, forever by the sacrifice of Christ" means?

But anyway, this is an example of letting the scriptures speak plainly for themselves...air tight and irrefutable.

Right. It's irrefutable that Hebrews 11 is talking about "saving faith". All those "others" who are reading this probably agree with me on this issue. I'm pretty sure you are alone. The interpretation of Hebrews 11 has NEVER been in dispute, as far as I know.

 

[ivdavid]

the place that I depart is when someone says that God does not extend His mercy to all. He does not have mercy on some because some people will not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. John 6:40

What is your understanding on mercy? It is not something anyone deserves or is entitled to. The sovereign king does not show mercy based on any attribute of the guilty - that's the whole point of mercy, in that it is a sovereign decision.

We are given a law to follow - the law of works(Lev 18:5) - which states that we shall live if we keep the law and we shall die under the curse if we keep not the law. Is this not justice? And no created man in the flesh is able to live - since all have rebelled and disobeyed and are all under the curse of the law. Each of us stand guilty before God - each deserving like condemnation.

God's purposes in the law is to show man's depravity - He further extends His offer of salvation by faith to all, commanding them to choose to receive it - in order to show forth man's depravity even more in that man in the flesh still chooses to reject God's offer.

Now, God is right in condemning all such mankind but, out of His sovereignty, He has mercy upon whom He wills to have mercy - and these objects of mercy are given life that they neither merited nor deserved. The others are objects of God's just wrath for their own transgressions - which would have been the case for the objects of mercy too if it were not for God's mercy(Eph 2:3-4).

The reason some do not get saved is the persons OWN fault Because Gods offer is to all, and made available to ALL Rom 5:18

Absolutely true. Man's volition has to be present for him to be held responsible and accountable. But the inverse, though, is not logically derived from this - that the reason some get saved is because of any part of the person's OWN acts(of faith or otherwise). While man is asked to choose and given the choices(Deut 30:19), there is no created man in the flesh who makes the right choice and hence all are under the curse(Gal 3:10) because of sin in the flesh(Rom 3:19-20).

God is given all glory and the flesh denied any - when faith is completely a gift of grace that is bestowed upon those who have been shown mercy by the Sovereign God.

And He would Be unjust if He held back salvation from a creature even just once in time. Ps 9:8; Rom 1:16-17

Again, God offers salvation to all. Man, by his own volition, chooses against it. Man now deserves condemnation. God has mercy upon whom He wills - and works out His salvation in these whereby these are led and caused to obey Him and walk in His ways. Hence, God is not unjust in not offering a means of salvation to any - yet His mercy is only upon whom He wills to show mercy upon.

 

[Webb]

Well dadof10, I've been off line for a while. Thought I'd answer Jethro but see you've already done that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ."

Isn't your point here that this verse says Abraham was justified by FAITH IN THE "PROMISED SEED"? Isn't your point that "only the faith of believing/trusting in God's promise of the Promised Seed justifies/saves"?

Maybe you should explain your use of the verse instead of simply posting a verse without comment. How about some exegesis on this verse?

Abraham's knowledge of who the Promised Son is only extends as far as the son born to him named Issac. For us, we now know the full revelation of who the Son promised to Abraham is, and we are responsible to have faith in that completed revelation.

In Abraham's limited revelation Issac is the One promised by God through whom all are blessed. Understand? Will you let yourself understand? Without actually being told Jesus is the ultimate Seed of Promise, Abraham's faith is only responsible to what he knows...that being Issac is the promised son of blessing, which he is, but just not THE Promised Son. He didn't know this. How can he put his faith in, and be responsible to the specific Son he did not know? But if he thinks what he knows about the promised son is the full reality and specific revelation of God, because he doesn't know better, then that is what he must place his trust in to be reckoned as righteous.

His faith was firmly planted in the promise of a son who would inherit the blessing on his behalf and possess the land he now dwelt in as a stranger. He just didn't know all the specifics. Nobody did until Jesus was revealed. Now we are responsible to THAT specific revelation about the Promise of a Son made to Abraham to be reckoned as righteous in his sight, apart from what we do.

This is not hard.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The verse says "promise of the Spirit through faith", not "the promised SEED."

The blessing promised to Abraham, which we now know to include being fulfilled through the blessing of the Spirit, comes through the Promised Son, just as God told Abraham.

This is not hard.

This is the point of the verse, not that Abraham had faith in "the Seed promised Eve", which was your point.

Abraham had faith in God's promise of a son through whom all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Abraham believed that promise and was reckoned as righteous. The actual details about that son and how that was to be fulfilled are not what determines if the faith he had in God's promise of a son could declare him righteous or not. Regardless of the details revealed at that time, it's still faith in God's promised son...and the blessing that son would inherit on his behalf.

The point is he had faith in God's promised Son, just as we are to have faith in God's promise of a son (who we now know to be Jesus Christ, not just Issac) and will also be reckoned as righteous before God for having THAT faith. That is Paul's point. That is the faith that justifies, faith in the promise of a son! A person can only be responsible to what God has revealed about that promise. Abraham had faith in what he knew about that promise and was declared righteous by that faith. Faith that was later validated as real when he offered Issac up on the altar. Again, validation in line with the faith that justified him...faith in the promise of a son, not the faith to go to a new land to check it out, or build an altar, but faith in the promise of a son.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And I've answered you twice. Here it is again, pasted from my last post:

"I have, and so have others here. Jesus says keeping the commandments leads to "eternal life". Paul says "woman will be saved through childbearing".

Help me out here. Where does it say we are justified (made righteous) by doing these things???? Why does being saved by something have to equate to being MADE righteous by those things?????

It's a terrible mistake to assume that what we do saves us because the doing of those things makes us righteous (that is the very definition of the damnable works gospel) instead of those things showing us to have the righteousness of Christ and, therefore, saved, showing our calling and election to be a sure thing (Hebrews 6:9-12 NIV1984) and not false, ensuring our grand entrance into the kingdom of God (2 Peter 1:10-11 NIV1984).

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." (James 2:18 NIV1984)

James says Abraham was justified by his willingness to sacrifice his son and Rahab was justified by her dealings with the spies.

Yes, and as I showed you repeatedly it's IMPOSSIBLE that the theme of James' teaching is that we MAKE ourselves righteous by acting on our faith because he uses examples of keeping the law (the law which defines sin for us--the very law Paul says can't justify a person) as how we are to be justified by what we do.

Understand the rift your doctrine creates? There's no way around it. The only way to avoid the obvious conflict your doctrine creates is to stubbornly insist the obedience to the law James uses to illustrate the works that justify a person are somehow not the same required obediences to the law that Paul says can not justify a person. That's not reasonable. That's irrational. That's totally unacceptable.

Peter says baptism saves.[/COLOR][/B][/I]

And again I ask. Where does it say baptism justifies??????

You twist these plain words in an attempt to fit them is your sola-fide mold."

No twisting going on in my camp. You are the one that has to make 'saved' and 'justified' mean the same thing to fit them into your 'faith + works' mold.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone."

'Justification' has two distinct BIBLICAL, and secular, definitions and usages that the Catholic Church apparently refuses to acknowledge.

It's easy to see, for all the reasons I've pointed out, that James is using one definition of 'justified' (to SHOW one to be righteous), while Paul is using another (to MAKE one righteous). I find it embarrassingly stubborn and proud for one to not be able to acknowledge that 1) the word has more than one recognized and used definition, and 2) the context where the word is used in the Bible validates and supports the different definitions of the word.

It's so simple and obvious the error the Catholic Church is making it's hard to grasp that they can not humbly acknowledge that error.

Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone."

It's hard to have respect for a church that has to make it a point to specifically point out the error of competing beliefs in sharing it's own beliefs. In Protestant circles we generally see this in those who defend false, fringe beliefs.

To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace.

Which, when properly understood, means a person is both justified (MADE righteous) by faith, AND justified (SHOWN to have that righteousness) by works.

Obviously, justifying faith MUST also be validated by what it does...or it can't reasonably be labeled the faith that justifies. Given the nature of what it means to 'have faith in God's promise of a son' it's obvious that a person must be justified according to both definitions of the word 'justified' for them to be saved on the Day of Wrath. Just as it's obvious Abraham's faith that God would fulfill the promises he made about the son he gave him MUST be seen in his actions concerning the child for that faith to be considered real in the first place. A faith that can't prove itself as able to justify by what it does is not the faith that justifies apart from what it does.

Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9).

If people knew what 'faith alone' meant in the mainline Protestant world, AS PAUL TEACHES THAT CONCEPT, nobody would make this statement. But as it is, the Catholic Church, among others, erroneously assumes 'faith alone', as Paul means that, means works do not have to accompany faith (they most certainly do!). What it means is the actual agent of justification is faith, not the works that faith most certainly MUST produce (for it to be validated as the faith that justifies).

What will it take to make people see they don't even get the argument???? Really, I'm being serious!!!! Our detractors don't even understand the Protestant argument for 'righteousness apart from works' (Romans 4:6), and that it is hardly the same argument James is making, let alone see the truth of it!


Oi vey...lot's of stuff here. And how sad much of it is based on a misunderstanding of the very argument they're coming against.

I'll be back later, lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just quickly...

I'm amazed at how short sided and misinformed a person shows themselves to be when they hear someone say 'faith alone' in regard to Paul's argument and immediately connect it with James' argument for 'faith alone' and foolishly assume they HAVE to mean the same thing. If they would just LISTEN to the argument for both they'd understand we're not the one's erroneously equating the two...THEY ARE!

If they'd just stop and listen to the difference between 'faith alone' in Paul's letter (actually stated as 'righteousness apart from works'), and 'faith alone' in James' letter they'd understand the two truths they both represent and not jump to the uneducated knee jerk reaction based on the belief that 'faith alone' HAS to mean the exact same thing in any and all conversations. Just as they erroneously conclude that 'justified' HAS to mean the exact same thing in any and all conversations.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well dadof10, I've been off line for a while. Thought I'd answer Jethro but see you've already done that.

But you said the point you were making was not about justification. The point you never made, by the way.

 

[gr8grace]

What is your understanding on mercy? It is not something anyone deserves or is entitled to. The sovereign king does not show mercy based on any attribute of the guilty - that's the whole point of mercy, in that it is a sovereign decision.

We are given a law to follow - the law of works(Lev 18:5) - which states that we shall live if we keep the law and we shall die under the curse if we keep not the law. Is this not justice? And no created man in the flesh is able to live - since all have rebelled and disobeyed and are all under the curse of the law. Each of us stand guilty before God - each deserving like condemnation.

God's purposes in the law is to show man's depravity - He further extends His offer of salvation by faith to all, commanding them to choose to receive it - in order to show forth man's depravity even more in that man in the flesh still chooses to reject God's offer.

Now, God is right in condemning all such mankind but, out of His sovereignty, He has mercy upon whom He wills to have mercy - and these objects of mercy are given life that they neither merited nor deserved. The others are objects of God's just wrath for their own transgressions - which would have been the case for the objects of mercy too if it were not for God's mercy(Eph 2:3-4).


Absolutely true. Man's volition has to be present for him to be held responsible and accountable. But the inverse, though, is not logically derived from this - that the reason some get saved is because of any part of the person's OWN acts(of faith or otherwise). While man is asked to choose and given the choices(Deut 30:19), there is no created man in the flesh who makes the right choice and hence all are under the curse(Gal 3:10) because of sin in the flesh(Rom 3:19-20).

God is given all glory and the flesh denied any - when faith is completely a gift of grace that is bestowed upon those who have been shown mercy by the Sovereign God.


Again, God offers salvation to all. Man, by his own volition, chooses against it. Man now deserves condemnation. God has mercy upon whom He wills - and works out His salvation in these whereby these are led and caused to obey Him and walk in His ways. Hence, God is not unjust in not offering a means of salvation to any - yet His mercy is only upon whom He wills to show mercy upon.

there is no created man in the flesh who makes the right choice and hence all are under the curse. (your quote)
You say its a sovereign decision, that immediately ELIMINATES human volition Plus you say we are CREATED to make the wrong choice. And that says that God sends people that he CREATED to make the wrong choice to hell because He wants too. We can NOT maintain His Justice and Righteousness with this attack on His Character and nature. He creates us condemned with no way out and then sends us to hell. Rom 5:12......Ps 9:8; Rom 1:16-17.

And I am saying that Rom 5:18 was given to us because if God did it this way He could Have Mercy on all! In making it this way God has His righteousness intact and could make EVERYONE a object of salvation. Because nobody deserved mercy! Condemnation before salvation. John 6:40

2 Tim 2:20-21
20Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21Therefore, if ANYONE CLEANSES HIMSELF from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
Pro 1:23-31
Turn to my reproof,
Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.

24“Because I called and you refused,
I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;

25And you neglected all my counsel
And did not want my reproof;

26I will also laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your dread comes,

27When your dread comes like a storm
And your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.

28“Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,

29Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.

30“They would not accept my counsel,
They spurned all my reproof.

31“So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way
And be satiated with their own devices.

If I teach that all can believe and come to Christ and it is all determined in the end, I am out nothing.

If I teach that it is all determined and nothing really matters what we do(because we were CREATED to make the wrong choice). And in the end it was belief and mans responsibility to believe. I would Hate to see the consequences for that.