Butch5
Member
What does any of that have to do with the issue at hand?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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Is belief "works"?
- Thread starter gr8grace
- Start date
What does any of that have to do with the issue at hand?
dadof10
Member
That's not what Paul says. "Works" will either lead to "eternal life" or "wrath and fury". There is no mention of any "reward" for those ALREADY in Heaven.
For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. (Rom. 2)
That is what I thought, carry on.
Hi Jarrod--You say you have faith that Christ saves you AT THE MOMENT you believe. Since faith comes by hearing the word of God ( Rom.10:17 ) may I ask just where the word of God says that?
Butch5
Member
What does this have to do with atone or justify?
Exactly, it proves his point. He's been arguing that no one is justified by the works of the Mosaic Law. What better way to prove his point than to show a man who lived and was justified before the Law was given?
He's not saying works are the product of faith. I've been saying this throughout the thread. James said, I will show you my faith "out of" my works. For faith to come out of works, works must first exist.
YLT James 2:18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith: (Jam 2:18 YLT)
BGT James 2:18 Ἀλλ᾽ ἐρεῖ τις· σὺ πίστιν ἔχεις, κἀγὼ ἔργα ἔχω· δεῖξόν μοι τὴν πίστιν σου χωρὶς τῶν ἔργων, κἀγώ σοι δείξω ἐκ τῶν ἔργων μου τὴν πίστιν. (Jam 2:18 BGT)
Look at the context, he is speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law, Romans 4 is the conclusion of the argument he made in chapter 3. In chapter 3 Paul had made an argument contrasting justification via faith and justification via the Mosaic Law (works). In chapter 4 he concludes that works (Mosaic Law) play no role in justification.
Butch5
Member
You won't address the issue? Either way Jesus said those who disbelieve are condemned already.
Post # 726 addressed the issue and my conclusion.
As to your last Question Jethro, I believe that a person can Stop from believing and completely reject the truth that they once embraced. But salvation and justification is from Him and He cannot deny Himself of His Promise to eternally save at the moment of belief in Christ, no matter what the creature behaves like after salvation. 2 Tim 2:13; Tit 1:2
1 Cor 3:14-15 deals with this behavior and rejection of truth after salvation and Justification.
The perfect integrity of God cannot be canceled by the failure or renunciation of any believer living on earth according to 2 Timothy 2:11-13. God is faithful to His Word. If we died with Him as we have as believers, then we will live with Him forever. If we endure suffering for blessing, we will rule with Him as mature believers. If we deny Him by refusing to grow spiritually, He will not be able to convey rewards and blessings that spiritual growth always brings. Even though we may be unfaithful, disbelieving, or faithless following our salvation, He remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself.
It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Timothy 2:11-13)
Now we are onto your conclusion and your unwillingness to answer questions to your conclusion.
So you have always believed the right things and have always done the right things? You have concluded that if the works and faith are wrong at any point salvation is lost forever. So have you been perfect in all you do?
dadof10
Member
I posted this on another thread to another person. It is relevant to the point here.
dadof10 said:
I would only add that the hypothetical person is "sealed by the Holy Spirit", whatever that means to you.
That you think James teaches that "saving faith" is DEMONSTRATED by works, assumes this is possible. When a person "shows" his "saving faith", he can ostensibly NEVER lose his salvation. I submit that there are NUMEROUS examples of people who have "shown" their faith to be "saving", yet lost that faith. I'm sure you can think of a few in your personal life, I know I can. The above example is, sadly, not rare.
You may ask!
1. Efficacious grace is the enabling power of the Holy Spirit to make faith in Jesus Christ effective for eternal salvation. When positive volition is exercised toward Gospel information resulting in faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit picks up that weak faith from the spiritually dead unbeliever and makes that faith effectual, carrying the believer to the point of salvation.
2. Regeneration is where the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit for the imputation of eternal life to that human spirit. This is being spiritually born again. The new believer then becomes trichotomous, having a body, soul, and spirit.
3. In the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit enters the believer into union with Christ, making the Church Age believer a part of the royal family of God.
4. In the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit creates a temple in the believer’s body for the indwelling of Christ as the Shekinah Glory, 1 Cor 3:16, 6:19 20; 2 Cor 6:16.
5. The filling of the Spirit is the initial entrance into the divine dynasphere at the point of salvation where the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit can be utilized in the execution of the protocol plan, Eph 5:18.
6. In the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit guarantees through His own signature, the existence of our own portfolio of invisible assets and the availability of divine power, Eph 1:13 14, 4:30.
7. The sovereign distribution of spiritual gifts to every believer at salvation is a ministry of the Holy Spirit, which is for the function of royalty, 1 Cor 12:11.
Hi Jarrod
All of the above and you still have not answered my question. Since you say Christ saves you THE MOMENT you believe, and Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the word of God, I ask again: WHERE does the word of God say what you said?
It is answered in point #1, what are the exact words you want to hear? Eph 1:13-14 are the exact words that I hear and see and believe. Heard and believed and then sealed. This is a MOMENT.
dadof10
Member
Yes, I will.
Because that's only his point. He is not talking about anything else. Baptism, charity, keeping the commandments, sacrifice...are not even on his radar. If you disagree, simply post the verses that tie good deeds to "works" when (now, read carefully) faith is contrasted to works by Paul or anyone else.
How so? Is this your point?
Good deeds alone=NOT justified
Works of the law alone=NOT justified
Works of the law+faith=NOT justified
Good deeds+faith=JUSTIFIED
Every work by itself does not justify, it needs faith to be salvific, therefore, faith alone!!! Shazam...
Is this your argument? I'll wait for confirmation before I proceed.
Well, finally. You are finally addressing the historical and cultural background present when Paul wrote, albeit inadequately.
Judaism didn't expect a "suffering servant", they expected Gen. Patton, a military leader who would deliver the Holy Land to the Jews and usher in permanent peace. They expected the lion and got the Lamb. The last thing they expected was that faith in the Lamb was what would JUSTIFY them in the New Covenant. This was (and still is) an EXTREMELY RADICAL view to the Jewish mind, which is why faith takes such prominence in Scripture. To the Jews, what justified was their "Jewishness", manifested by "works of the law" given them by God. They were the chosen people, the Gentiles were not.
Jesus unequivocally taught that the Kingdom of God was open to the Gentiles. The dilemma was that, as far as we know, He didn't leave a blueprint as to how this was to happen, and there were many differing opinions as to the shape this "acceptance of the Gentiles" was to take. The Early Church had to figure it out as they went along. This is the world that shaped Paul's letters and the other NT writings.
The first real challenge was whether the Gentile converts had to become Jews first and keep the Mosaic Law, as the Jewish converts did, including Paul. The "Judaizers" not only thought the Mosaic law (including circumcision) had to be forced upon the Gentiles, but that it actually SAVED. This is what Paul is responding to in his letters. He is not writing a catechism, or even a thesis on the subject of faith. He is writing letters to people he KNEW who were caught up in this conflict. It was no small thing. They even held a council on the subject, which was HUGE, especially considering they had to WALK everywhere.
Unless your exegesis of Paul's letters takes the tone and the background of the times into consideration, it will always fall short and will always lead to more questions than answers.
I asked previously "Do you think Abraham was justified by "the Seed, which is Christ" or not? If so, it naturally follows he was justified in Gen. 12. These are simply the facts."
Will you be skipping "right to this question if you don't mind"?
YosefHayim
Member
What's there to refute? They are two completely different things. Belief is faith and works are deeds. Are apples oranges? That should be common sense.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, Abraham was justified by his faith in the promises made to him about the seed, who we now know to be Jesus Christ. We simply don't know if what he knew about the seed was sufficient to justify him in Genesis 12. It just doesn't say. Though, surely, the faith he did have pleased God. That much we know!
You presume, incorrectly, that any knowledge about Christ, and even acting on any and all knowledge of Christ, justifies. This is no more true than when I knew something about the promises connected with and about Christ, and even had the faith to get out of bed to go to church to learn more about the gospel (a faith that certainly pleased God!), but was not justified by faith in Christ until later when I learned more about the gospel and actually put my trust in it. But, according to your belief I was most certainly justified by the faith to simply investigate the promises. Oh, how every evangelist wished that were true!
Let's not lose the point of this contention and why the works justification doctrine strains to make the point that Abraham was already declared righteous before Genesis 15 (though it doesn't say that). According to works justification--meaning, 'you aren't justified until you do something righteous along with your faith'--the thinking goes that if Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, where his faith can be directly linked to something he 'did', this somehow proves that he was justified by what he did and not just by the faith alone that produced the doing. The problem being, even if Abraham was justified in Genesis 12 (remember, I've been saying all along, it simply doesn't say) how can one just automatically come to the conclusion that what he did did the justifying along with his faith????
If you want to make the argument that faith does something, that you will get no argument from anyone about. But to say a person is justified (made righteous) by that doing (along with their faith), that you will get no agreement with at all from your opponents.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
'Faith' is the surety of conviction that something is true (Hebrews 11:1). The Holy Spirit is the undeniable voice that goes out into the world and convicts all people that the gospel is true. 'Belief' is retaining that voice of faith, the Word of God. Some choose to reject faith (the surety of what has been revealed to them), in essence calling God a liar, and choose to walk in unbelief.
'Belief' (trusting in the gospel truth revealed to you through the gift of faith) is different than all other works/deeds in that it is the only 'work' you 'do' that can justify a person, making them legally righteous before God. Which only makes sense because the only way to be justified (made legally perfect before God) is to have the guilt of your sin that makes you unrighteous before God removed through the forgiveness of that sin. It's impossible to do anything other than trust in God's forgiveness of sins to remove sin guilt. That's why only 'having faith'--believing in God's offer of forgiveness--can make a person forgiven of their sin guilt making them righteous before God. The 'work' of believing does what no other righteous work can do. That's the 'apples and oranges' of faith vs. works, not necessarily that faith (rather belief) is not a work while everything else we do is.
That doesn't mean the work of believing will not have work attached (genuine faith in Christ must have work attached for it to be validated as being genuine--like how a dip in the pool is validated by the puddle of water you leave on the ground). It means the 'work' of believing, all by itself, does the justifying, not the righteous work that must surely accompany that belief. But, sadly, some will continue to misunderstand what 'faith alone' means and continue to confuse it with James' 'faith alone' sermon.
Perhaps the Protestant movement has to take some responsibility for the confusion for referring to it as 'faith alone' instead of what Paul actually calls it, "righteousness (by faith) apart from works" (Romans 4:6).
(Just kinda using your post as a spring board for further comment. Hope you don't mind.)
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Good grief, dadof10, I did that! But you take the verses I used to do that and then demand verses to make the point of those verses.
And do I have to point out again that "Baptism, charity, keeping the commandments, sacrifice" ARE works of the law?
Yes, but ONLY as long as it's understood that 'Good deeds+faith=justified' means the faith that justifies (MAKES one legally righteous before God), justifies apart from the good deeds it will most certainly produce. Works are most certainly the expected and obligatory outcome of faith . They are inseparable, but that in no way means the work of obedience, except the obedience of believing, can remove sin guilt and make a person legally righteous before God. Only the blood of Christ can do that through faith in that blood.
But the faith alone, all by itself, apart from the merit of the work that accompanies it, does the justifying. Shazam!
James says genuine faith has work attached.
Paul says the faith itself is what does the actual justifying.
Proceed.
I'll be back.
Deborah13
Member
I believe we do because Jesus said this,
John 8:56
King James Version (KJV)
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
If Jesus says he saw it then he saw it.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, Abraham did in fact see the Christ. But when? I'm not sure the Bible tells us. Did he see him in Genesis 12? Did he see the Christ when God declared him righteous in Genesis 15? Or did he see Jesus' day, not in a vision, or a spiritual revelation, but from heaven as the glory of Christ was being unveiled here on earth?
Hi Jethro,
I do agree that we can not pin point Abrahams salvation, But I believe that Abraham was saved before he married Sarai.
Gen 12:1 is a repeat of some thing the Lord had already promised Abram. Abram was being disobedient to the Lord because he would not leave His family and the Land.
Gen 12:1 Now the Lord HAD said to Abram......In Gen 12:1-4 Notice that Abram was in Haran when 12:1 was said.
Now Go to Acts 7:2-3 in Stephens speech:
2 And he said, “Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran, 3 and said to him, ‘LEAVE YOUR COUNTRY AND YOUR RELATIVES, AND COME INTO THE LAND THAT I WILL SHOW YOU.’
So that would put Abrahams salvation back in Gen 11:28 or so.
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Hi Jarrod:
You wrote (post 738): ''I have faith that Christ will save me at the moment I believe----" Inasmuch as Rom.10:17 teaches faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, I asked you where the word of God teaches that statement. Your answer was that your point # 1 (post 756) taught it. No so. Your point # 1 reads: ''Efficacious grace is the enabling power of the Holy Spirit to make faith in Jesus Christ effective for eternal salvation. When positige volition is exercised toward Gospel informatkon resulting in faith is Christ, the Holy Spirit picks up that weak faith from the spiritually dead unbeliever and makes that faith effectual, carrying the believer to the point of salvation." Absolutely nothing is said in the above ''that Christ will save me at the moment I believe" nor is a single scripture cited to prove your statement and scripture is what I asked for. Your "point #1" does raise other questions which I shall not now ask for scriptural support, instead, for now, I shall hold you to the present. Where, in the light of Rom.10:17 does God's word teach you are saved "at the moment I believe."? Finally, you cite in vain Eph.1:13,14 as proof one is saved the "moment" one believes, but, again, its not there. I shall ask you once again, since you've said it, where in the light of Rom.10:17 does the scripture say one is saved the "moment" one believes. I expect you will come up with some answer, maybe lengthy, but expectation is not for a Bible answer from the NT as there is none.
God Bless