Sorry Webb, but I really do not have an answer for you. I will do some more study.
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Is belief "works"?
- Thread starter gr8grace
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Sorry Webb, but I really do not have an answer for you. I will do some more study.
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
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Its interesting all that verse says in the original language also. it is a verse that establishes the doctrine of eternal security at the MOMENT one believes. Any verse that SEEMS to refute eternal security, we Go back to this clear and unmistakable verse. and with the tenses of the original language we see that it is at the MOMENT of belief eternal life is imputed to the believer.
the word believes, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. It is not a present tense, which would indicate that you have to keep on believing, or else you could lose your salvation. It is not only academic dishonesty, it is also blasphemous to tell people that they can lose their salvation, and then back it up by misquoting the original languages. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice, which disproves hyper-Calvinism and those who deny the existence of a free will. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
Amen, Jarrod. 
Jethro Bodine
Member
That's very interesting. I wonder if the glory of God that appeared to Abraham was what Jesus was talking about.
I've always understood Abraham seeing Jesus' 'day' as being him seeing the time of Christ's appearing on the earth which was veiled and unrevealed while Abraham was alive, but which he saw unveiled after he died and Christ came into the world. IOW, he saw Christ's 'day' from the other side.
Jethro Bodine
Member
What are some of the things we should be taking into consideration about this verse and what Jarrod shared about it to make it compatible with what Paul said:
"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NIV1984)
"6 ...Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast." (Hebrews 3:6 NIV1984)
I have things to discuss concerning your other posts but I've just not been up to digging into them today, for example, the difference between denying Christ, and being faithless within a relationship with Christ. This will do for now.
Thats what I believe, At that APPEARING in Mesopotamia Christ revealed His Plan of redemption to Abraham. I think that these guys had a revealing that was unmistakable to them, and the Spirit kept it "hidden " to us until the DAY came. I don't think we give Abraham enough credit for His Faith. He was no Idiot when He brought Isaac up the mountain, Abraham Knew Full well what was going on, and He was very willing to be part of Gods Plan. Because He was saved and was a mature believer and trusted God in the Plan that was revealed to him. He KNEW that he was not going to sacrifice Isaac Because Abraham had enough faith in what was revealed to him in Mesopotamia.
You seem to be contrasting "the Law" against "good deeds" as if Doing the commandments of the Law in the spirit would not be the same as Doing good deeds - is this how you've meant it here? Have you included only the ritual commandments under the Law of Moses or have you included every single jot and tittle of the Law? If only the ritual commandments - where does Scripture prescribe so? And if all the OT commandments, then how are they not the same as good deeds if done in the spirit? Isn't the only difference between the "dead works of the Law" and the "good deeds", the primary source of such works/deeds - whether "the self/in the flesh" or whether "God in the inner man/in the spirit"?Butch5 said:
And this has been countered(post#519) and other related contradictions in such a view have been brought up from Scripture - these are yet to be clarified before you can claim a final conclusion.Butch5 said:
Hi Jethro,
I do believe that 1 Cor 15:1-2 can be rectified very easily. They are saved but it is vanity if they will not walk in the truth that Paul was teaching them...Gal 3:3-4....this is phase 2 of experiential sanctification. If we are not willing to walk in Gods truth it is vain. But salvation(Justification) is procured in Belief in Christ. John 5:24;John 6:47
Heb 3:6.....the Author is talking to believers and their walk with Him. salvation is not the issue in this verse, it Is the believers walk with Christ and their eternal position with Christ. Heaven is not equal. And we will not only go to Heaven but we will reign with Him in His House if we follow His plan after salvation. 2 Tim 2:12
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
Not really, because you have posted verses that support my view rather than refute it. You're going to have to try harder (to no avail, but it could be interesting to see what you will fiind). Paul goes on in 1 Corinthians 15 to detail that it is by faith and by grace that salvation occurs. The vanity of belief that he speaks of in v. 2 applies to those who are like the rocky, hard or thorny soil of the Parable of the Seeds. Here is a warning for those who are church-goers only, not true believers. But I'msure you're not going to accept that, so I will let the words fall where they may. Salvation cannot be lost. If it could be, it would be self-generated, and therefore render Christ's sacrifice on the cross worthless. Faith is generated by God, given to the believer by His grace to save him/her from condemnation, not because of what we've done, but because of who He is.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
This is the reason I can't get on board with what you say:
"19 Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death." (Hebrews 11:19 NIV1984)
His reasoning was that even though Issac die, he knew God would raise him back up again to keep the surety of the promise made to him about Issac, not that he knew he would not have to actually go through with the sacrifice. IOW, not even death would prevent God from fulfilling the promises. From there I relate that to how we also believe that Christ, even though he die, he would live again to fulfill the promise to us concerning him.
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
This passage has nothing to do with whether or not we are obligated to be sinless, which is essentially the claim you are making in the previous post. Those who hold to the concept that we must "abide to the end" do not understand what that means. It is not a work of obedience and legalism. I frankly don't care whether you get on board with it or not. No offense, but I'm not here to win arguments. I'm here to speak the truth. God bless.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I think you're attaching this comment to the wrong post, but I think I know what you are intending to address.
No, I do not think we are obligated to be sinless. I've been a Christian for 27 years and I know how ludicrous it is to think that being in Christ means being sinless. This is about persevering in believing (trusting).
What I'm saying is the scriptures suggest that the thing we are to continue in to the very end in order to be saved is our believing--our trusting in the blood. The question from there is, "is it even possible for someone who has put their trust in the blood of Christ, and who has been genuinely justified by that trust, to then change their mind later?" The scriptures do suggest that's possible. I'm not dogmatic about it because I haven't made a firm decision about it in my own mind.
You misunderstand. What I'm saying is, the Bible says what we are to abide in to the very end is our believing, our trusting in the blood of Christ:
14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." (Hebrews 3:14 NIV1984)
And of course, the argument goes that the person who does not continue to believe never had a genuine faith to begin with. My experience has in fact verified that those who fall away had a flawed salvation to begin with. They seem to have held back a bit from the total surrender that justification requires. They never really came into full agreement with God about sin and his justice in judging it.
So, this is about persevering in the 'work' of believing to be saved, not persevering in literal works of righteousness to the end, as if salvation was based on the merit of works.
My 'on board' comment was in regard to Jarrod's post about when Jesus said Abraham saw Jesus' day, not your comments about never losing salvation.
Jethro Bodine
Member
There's more throughout Hebrews that makes it very hard to think the author is only referring to status within the kingdom (rewards), and not the matter of whether you're included in the kingdom of God or not based on your continued believing.
I don't want anyone to think I'm defending the Christian life being a series of re-justifications. No, Hebrews makes it clear you can not re-crucify Christ and come back to repentance.
Not feeling real well today (as yesterday) and don't have the energy to delve into this as I want. I have much to say and will have to settle for just sharing it as it comes up. A lot of it keys around two sources of sinning that the church does not seem to distinguish between very well: The sin that leads to death, and sin that does not lead to death. One will effectively keep you out of, or end your participation in, the kingdom of God, while the other is a matter of weakness and failure in regard to daily living and the learning curve of the genuine believer within the kingdom, not in regard to salvation itself. Faithlessness has to do with the learning curve of the Christian. Denial of Christ's forgiveness altogether has to do with departing the very 'believing'--the trusting in the blood that saves--that one must have to the end to be saved.
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I know that most Churches nowadays Do NOT teach Bible doctrine, they for the most part teach a lifestyle,and in actuality it becomes moral degeneracy. People are relying on their "MORAL LIFE" for sanctification and at times their justification and NOT the Grace of God.
I agree Hebrews says a whole lot more then that.
But I disagree that the Sin unto death takes a person out of the Kingdom of God, it actually brings the apostate believer INTO the Kingdom of God and out of this world because they have become useless to God in this world. And the Sin unto death is a physical death, not a spiritual death.
The Sin unto death is not a particular sin so to speak, it is a mental attitude. And this stems from negative volition to bible doctrine, and Gods plan for that believers life. it progresses to the point that the believer has been so negative towards Gods Plan that God takes him home,because He is useless to God in this life. And Gods Grace is patient, this is a life time of negative decisions for the believer.
In Exodus 4:24 we see Moses at the Door of the Sin unto death. He was being negative to Gods Plan and the Doctrine of circumcision. Gen 17:14 Saul was another example of the Sin unto death.
Moses would have been useless to God if Moses would not follow Gods plan. If Moses would not follow the plan how could He honestly expect anyone else to follow.
yes
How?