Is belief "works"?

[Jethro Bodine]

The fact of the matter is that Heaven is reserved for good people and Hell is reserved for bad people. God is righteous, and to send people to Hell simply because they never got dunked in water or professed a life specifically in Christ is definitively unrighteous.

There is no such thing as a 'good person', I mean in comparison to God.

Perfection is the standard of goodness in heaven. All people fall miserably short of that standard. The only way to be qualified for the kingdom is to have righteousness given to you. Those who have humbled themselves in Christ, through the acknowledgement of their sin guilt and their desperate lack of their own righteousness, have the gracious promise of God's righteousness. The Holy Spirit being the down payment that guarantees the surety of that promise of righteous perfection and entry into the kingdom of God, the Land of Righteousness:

"5 ...by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope." (Galatians 5:5 NIV1984)

Only people who know they can not be righteous in and of themselves receive the righteousness of God that can save them on the Day of Wrath. Anyone who thinks they're going to get through the Judgment on the merit of their own righteousness is in for a very rude awakening. And Jesus does tell us about the people who will plead with him to come into the kingdom, boasting of the work they did on his behalf, but who will be turned away.

How do we know if we have that down payment, that guarantee of the righteousness that saves on the Day of Wrath? We know it by how that down payment of righteousness, the Holy Spirit can be seen in what we do. Namely through the fruit of the Spirit, specifically, godly love for others. Honestly, I've never met a person outside of Christ, who knew about Christ but had rejected him, who exhibited the characteristics of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience...) in any way to suggest that they were indeed new creations on their way to perfection.

And actually, those who claimed they were good, because of their 'righteous' work in serving the poor and things like that were actually angry, foul mouthed, immoral people. And they were relying on their 'good works' to somehow weigh more than the evil they knew they did but somehow couldn't quite acknowledge as their own. They rationalized it away by dumbing down the standard of perfection that the Bible demands. A standard of perfection that should drive them to Christ, not into the effort of trying to attain that standard of perfection. If only they could grasp that going to Christ IS how you attain that standard of perfection.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A standard of perfection that should drive them to Christ, not into the effort of trying to attain that standard of perfection. If only they could grasp that going to Christ IS how you attain that standard of perfection.

Which is what Paul meant when he said this:

"5 ...to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5 NIV1984)

The man who trusts God, by faith, is the man who is justified, not the man who thinks that what he does (outside of believe, of course) is how a man is justified. This includes baptism, communion, or any other thing you can do or think that you believe justifies you. The ONLY thing, the only 'work' that can justify a man is faith in the blood of Christ.

And, sadly, this will be misunderstood to mean James' 'faith alone' argument--that believing in Christ somehow removes the necessity for faith to do good things. No, what it means is, a person is justified (made righteous) by faith apart from what they do. Justification prepares a person for the good things that the people of God are commanded to do, and which He ordained for them to do.

 

[EdenBorn]

There is no such thing as a 'good person', I mean in comparison to God.

If there is no such thing as a good person, then God justifies evil when He justifies a person.

Only people who know they can not be righteous in and of themselves receive the righteousness of God that can save them on the Day of Wrath. Anyone who thinks they're going to get through the Judgment on the merit of their own righteousness is in for a very rude awakening. And Jesus does tell us about the people who will plead with him to come into the kingdom, boasting of the work they did on his behalf, but who will be turned away.

There's a word for that, and it's called 'self righteousness'. And you are right, self righteousness is not Godly and is the reason the world is the way it is now. However, the Bible does not state that a person has to be a Christian to do anything right or have a good moral standing in the eyes of God.

And actually, those who claimed they were good, because of their 'righteous' work in serving the poor and things like that were actually angry, foul mouthed, immoral people. And they were relying on their 'good works' to somehow weigh more than the evil they knew they did but somehow couldn't quite acknowledge as their own. They rationalized it away by dumbing down the standard of perfection that the Bible demands. A standard of perfection that should drive them to Christ, not into the effort of trying to attain that standard of perfection. If only they could grasp that going to Christ IS how you attain that standard of perfection.

You do not need Christ to be a modest, moral person capable of goo works and Godly righteousness. There in fact remarkable people out there who simply never grew up with Christianity or hold it in some sacred fashion. Some people just trust that the universe will unfold the way it should, and that is good enough. Christ's sacrifice was not a demand of belief, but a moral ultimatum.

 

[dadof10]

We know from the whole counsel of scripture that faith is the actual agent of justification,...

Correct. Without faith there can be no justification.

...not the water of baptism.

Wrong. The "whole counsel of scripture" says that faith justifies, not that faith ALONE justifies. It doesn't say baptism doesn't justify, it doesn't contrast faith with baptism. Scripture plainly says that the waters of baptism take away sin. You are wrong when you say only faith removes "sin guilt".

Baptism only represents that which only the Holy Spirit can do--cleanse the Spirit of a person of sin guilt.

Prove it or stop saying it. Where does Scripture teach water baptism "represents" anything?

I said water baptism is a symbol of the Holy Spirit, and that a person can receive the Spirit before, during, or after water baptism. How does that in any way shape or form even remotely mean I said the Holy Spirit exactly mirrors water baptism?

Do you think Peter and Ananias are talking about water baptism or baptism in the Holy Spirit?

As I say, the whole counsel of scripture reveals that the Holy Spirit is the actual agent of justification. The Holy Spirit is the righteousness we receive in Christ. The Holy Spirit is what makes us righteous.

Again, correct.

How can literal water be the agent of righteousness? How does water wash away sin? How can water make us righteous? How can it do that?

The same way having faith can. When the water is poured, the Holy Spirit enters the person and removes sin. You seem to think belief that the Holy Spirit actually cleanses the sinner, that water baptism is HOW the merits of Christ are applied, is ludicrous, yet have no problem with the Holy Spirit coming upon a person by having faith and saying the sinners prayer. How does that happen? How can belief in Christ make us righteous?

What we are talking about is HOW the merits of Christ are applied to the person. You think it's faith alone, I think it's faith and baptism. We both agree that it's the the Holy Spirit that does the cleansing and justifying.

The spirit of a person is cleansed with the fire of the Holy Spirit through belief in the blood. Our Spirit joined with the Spirit of God. The flesh of a person--the defilement of what a person does--is made clean through the washing of repentance. That's how you wash the outward man.

Again, correct.

Baptism is the symbol of this washing of, both, the inner man, and the outer man by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Again, wrong. Where is baptism called a "symbol".

Water can't do that.

Peter and Ananias disagree with you.

How can literal water make a spirit clean? How can water make the defiled deeds of the flesh go away?

How can having faith and saying a sinners prayer? At least water has the properties to clean something. What properties do faith or prayer have that make them capable of cleansing?

But it's easy to see how the Spirit of God can do that.

The Spirit of God does do that. One WAY He does it is by water baptism.

Water baptism is but a symbol of what only the Holy Spirit can do in the body and spirit of a person.

Again, no proof...

As I just explained, water does not cleanse the Spirit of a man. The Holy Spirit does. How is a spirit made clean by water? How are evil deeds of the flesh washed away by water? Obviously, water is symbolic of what can do that.

So, it's symbolic because you don't THINK it can be done??? How is the spirit made clean by faith? How are evil deeds washed away by faith? Is faith symbolic? This is a ridiculous argument.

Baptism is a work.

Prove it!!! Where does Scripture teach this heresy?

Baptism, by definition, is obviously NOT faith in the blood of Christ.

And we've come full circle. So, ANYTHING not "faith" is a "work"? Prove this too. We left off at your comment that "deeds...done in righteousness" means "all deeds". I have thoroughly debunked this claim. So, would you care to move on? Where does Scripture call baptism, charity, sacrifice, etc. "works"?

How is it you can't see the difference between the 'work' of believing in the blood (trusting in the blood) and all other things you can do or think????

I CAN see it, just not in the pages of Scripture or in the first 1500 years of Christianity. I can "see" the Arian, Montanist, Nestorian, and many other heresies too. That doesn't mean I "see" them in the teachings of Christ.

Gotta get back to work. I'll respond to your "justification vs. salvation" take later.

 

[reba]

The same way having faith can. When the water is poured, the Holy Spirit enters
the person and removes sin. You seem to think belief that the Holy Spirit
actually cleanses the sinner, that water baptism is HOW the merits of Christ are
applied, is ludicrous, yet have no problem with the Holy Spirit coming upon a
person by having faith and saying the sinners prayer. How does that happen? How
can belief in Christ make us righteous?

Where in scripture is Baptism water poured?

 

[Webb]

Where in scripture is Baptism water poured?

Hi Reba

I believe it must be found in the same place where it says baptism is not for the remission of sins.

 

[EdenBorn]

Where in scripture is Baptism water poured?

Early Christians used buckets and spoons. Since Christianity was illegal at the time, they couldn't do it openly in public.

 

[reba]

Thanks guys but that was not the question

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Where in scripture is Baptism water poured?

Hi Reba

I believe it must be found in the same place where it says baptism is not for the remission of sins.

More on this at the end.

Early Christians used buckets and spoons. Since Christianity was illegal at the time, they couldn't do it openly in public.

Thanks guys but that was not the question

It isn't. That's the answer. Nowhere is it said that baptism is by sprinkling or "pouring." In fact, the Greek baptizo and baptisma neither one carry any meaning other than immersion.

Webb, no where does it say that baptism is for the remission of sins, in the sense that it is necessary for salvation. The one verse that uses this specific language, Acts 2:38, in fact states the reason for baptism is because you have been forgiven, not to be forgiven.

 

[EdenBorn]

It isn't. That's the answer. Nowhere is it said that baptism is by sprinkling or "pouring." In fact, the Greek baptizo and baptisma neither one carry any meaning other than immersion.

As I said:

Early Christians used buckets and spoons. Since Christianity was illegal at the time, they couldn't do it openly in public.

Early Christians were directly guided by the apostles. Therefore, you are simply grasping at straws. Baptism is a holy rite, not like a step by step instruction on the side of a tv dinner box.

 

[Webb]

More on this at the end.



It isn't. That's the answer. Nowhere is it said that baptism is by sprinkling or "pouring." In fact, the Greek baptizo and baptisma neither one carry any meaning other than immersion.

Webb, no where does it say that baptism is for the remission of sins, in the sense that it is necessary for salvation. The one verse that uses this specific language, Acts 2:38, in fact states the reason for baptism is because you have been forgiven, not to be forgiven.

Whatever repentance is for in Acts 2:38 baptism is for.

 

[Webb]

As I said:

Early Christians used buckets and spoons. Since Christianity was illegal at the time, they couldn't do it openly in public.

Early Christians were directly guided by the apostles. Therefore, you are simply grasping at straws. Baptism is a holy rite, not like a step by step instruction on the side of a tv dinner box.

In the NT they went down into the water and they came up out of the water when being baptized, you don't do that when sprinkled or poured.

 

[reba]

Lets not turn this thread into one on Baptism.... Start one but not this one... Moderator

 

[dadof10]

Where in scripture is Baptism water poured?

OK. When the person is dunked or submerged or whatever, into the water, the Holy Spirit enters the person.

Let's not turn this onto a baptism thread

 

[reba]

I knew you wouldn't let me down!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Whatever repentance is for in Acts 2:38 baptism is for.

Incorrect. But I don't expect you to accept that, so this will be the end of that discussion.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Reba

I believe it must be found in the same place where it says baptism is not for the remission of sins.

Repentance puts the sins of the body into remission. This is where common sense comes in. I wish taking a bath in water did that.

John's baptism (water) is the commanded way that you approach God to express your commitment to do that (put your sins into remission by repenting of those sins).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Incorrect. But I don't expect you to accept that, so this will be the end of that discussion.

Good answer.

As I'm sure you know, Romans 14 tells us to just let people believe what they want about things like this. If someone's faith is at a place where they think literal water literally washes away sins then that's just where their faith is and we are to just let 'em think that--like we are to do for people who think there is literal defilement in meat sacrificed to an idol.

This is all rather pointless considering that virtually all true, sincere, serious believers are baptized anyway, lol. What's the point of arguing the significance of something serious believers in the real church of Jesus Christ commit to anyway? And Reba's right, a detailed discussion belongs in another (endless, lol) thread of it's own.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK. When the person is dunked or submerged or whatever, into the water, the Holy Spirit enters the person.

Let's not turn this onto a baptism thread

Maybe.

It depends on if it happens to coincide with placing your trust in the blood of Christ in your heart. If there was a body of water handy when I believed in my heart and was justified (Romans 10:10) I would have received the Holy Spirit in water baptism. But as it is, I believed and was justified, and the Holy Spirit came into me as a result, a full two months before my water baptism.

 

[Webb]

Repentance puts the sins of the body into remission. This is where common sense comes in. I wish taking a bath in water did that.

John's baptism (water) is the commanded way that you approach God to express your commitment to do that (put your sins into remission by repenting of those sins).

In keeping with Reba's request I shall not reply (regarding baptism), however,should you like to take this to the debate forum, "ask and ye shall receive".