Is belief "works"?

[francisdesales]

Maybe this will help. Billy & Bubba are walking down the street. Billy is listening to his ipod. Billy & Bubba run into their friend Bob while walking down the street. Billy gives his friend Bob his ipod. Who did Bob get the ipod from? He got the ipod from Billy...not Bubba...but Billy was not alone. So, although he recieved the ipod from Billy alone, Billy was not alone (he was with Bubba). Just as we are saved through faith alone, but, our faith is not alone (accompanied by works)...but the works don't take part in saving us, so we are saved by faith alone.

What does Bubba have to do with anything in this transaction? This cannot be an analogy regarding faith/works, since works MUST be present for faith to be "valid". Billy didn't need Bob there.

When if Bubba had pleaded with Billy to give Bob the Ipod? It would seem that Bubba had something to do with the giving of the Ipod. But in your situation? Bubba does nothing. You might as well have said : Billy was not alone, he was wearing clothes...

Not broadening the definition. Faith- when we put our trust & confidence in him. Like I stated before, repentance- a change of heart/mind.

Repentance is not faith.

Jesus says "repent and believe in the Gospel" Our Lord is not being redundant. Faith in God and repentance for what we did by sinning are two different, albeit related, things.

lol...:biglol...I like you francisdesales...you got a sense of humor on ya.

Yes, we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously. Glad you appreciate my particular "talent" from God!

He calls you to trust him if that is what you mean. But, at some point you do have to actually put your trust in him, so...yes, it does happen in a moment...if it happens. Trust might be learned over time, because we are reluctant to trust...but when it happens...it happens.

My point is that the BEGINNING is not as important as MAINTAINING that trust. "He who perseveres until the end is saved". Too much emphasis is put on that "moment", as if THAT determines our destiny. Clearly, the Bible says we must continue trusting and believing in God. Since this journey towards God is ongoing, the specific interaction of our faith and works is not so important to me, as long as my works are done out of love and trust in God. Again, I see it as arguing over which is more important, the chicken or the egg. It would seem, according to James, that we need BOTH faith and works (HE says that we are saved by works, but I believe he means faith-moved works)

The event of justification took place on the cross when Jesus took the punishment for our sins, so that we could be justified through his righteousness when we put faith in him.

That is initial justification. But we continue to be justified as we bear fruit that came from the seed of God's grace. As we journey through life, hopefully, we continue to be seen as just in God's eyes because of our faith-filled works, done by God moving our will to do these things. The Biblical example of this is Abraham, who the NT sees as being justified on three separate occasions. So again, it is not that one moment of the past that holds primary importance in the spiritual journey, although we must make that first step. What is important is that we are seen as justified at the END!

We are secure in our salvation...He keeps us in our faith.

Not against our will. Clearly, we CAN sin, and if we don't repent, how can we consider ourselves "saved"? Being saved is sharing in the divine nature. If we purposely sin, the blood of Christ no longer applies to us (Hebrews 10:26-30)

If someone says they are a believer and then becomes an unbeliever...we know that they were never really a believer.

That's patently false.

EVERYONE sins, John says those who say the don't sin are liars.

Does this sin mean you were "never saved"?

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

That is the ONLY POSSIBLE verse in the ENTIRE BIBLE that even suggests what you are saying. It is not wise to build up such a pillar of our theology upon one verse, when so many OTHER verses say something different. Let's talk about this verse...

What is ironic is that those who hold this interpretation will NEVER know that they REALLY are believers!!! How do you KNOW that God will not allow a particular situation to occur in your life that will cause you to choose to grieviously sin? Thus, your eternal destiny remains a question mark, and OSAS is no more "certain" than any other theology.

The big problem with your interpretation is taking a specific truth concerning SOME who fall away and turning into a GENERAL and UNIVERSAL truth applicable to EVERYONE who may fall away. Of course, there are some who join the church and leave it, who never genuinely believed in Christ and turned their heart to them. I teach RCIA, the program where non-Catholics go through formation to become Catholics. I can tell you that some people are there only because their wives/husbands are "making" them be there. In some cases, because the period of formation is nearly a year, they convert. Some do not "convert", and they subsequently fall away. From my experience, I know that they probably never did accept Jesus in the way that we do.

This does not prove, however, that EVERYONE'S journey is as such. Only some people were never "true" believers. In the verse before, John implies that condition already! "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now, many antichrists have come. This is how we know this is the last hour". The people John is refering to in verse 19 are these antichrists. Teachers who are false, whose purpose is to upset the faith of the average Christian. John does not hesitate to equate them to THE antichrist, Satan. Paul also speaks of such people in 2 Cor 11:13-15 "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers...etc. Paul references both Satan and the false apostles as masquerading as angels of light - their purpose is to deceive.

While it is certain that some 'never were saved to begin with', the context of 1 John 2:19 applies primarily to the antichrists whose purpose is to destroy Christianity. Satan was never Christian, and those who follow satan were never Christain either. But to apply this verse to everyone? It is poor exegesis, especially when we couple this with the fact that it is the ONLY verse that even REMOTELY SUGGESTS that possibility that you suggest. Every other passage that addresses this issue of departing from the faith speak of them as true believers, but in a moment or continuation of grevious sin, fall from the grace of God.

I have a few questions for you. I am a little confused. You say that we can't earn salvation. Then you say we need works to make our faith slavific & that you do works to enter his kingdom (along with faith)....how is this not earning salvation?

My works don't earn salvation. God's grace grants me the desire to work and the ability to have faith. What of my own can I present to God upon judgment? My works are moved by my love of God, or my fear of God. But not because I am building up points on a record to show God - "see, I was a good boy, now you owe me rewards".

If you must do these works for salvation & in order to enter the kingdom of heaven...how is that not doing works to earn salvation?

It depends upon my interior motives for doing the "works". I must obey God's commandments. But why am I? What drives me to? Faith is nothing without love. I can even have faith to move mountains, but it is NOTHING without love. Johh says essentially the same thing when he states "how can you say you love God, whom you cannot see, when you do not love your neighbor. Such a person is a liar" (paraphrase, am in a hurry). I must obey God - do works - if you will. This does not earn me heaven. But disobedience earns me eternal separation from God.

Also, how is it that you agree that we are saved by faith 'apart from' works, yet works are 'a part of' our salvation...they are either 'a part of' our salvation or they are 'apart from' our salvation...which is it? Do you think that maybe you are the one trying to have it both ways, or am I missing something?

"apart from works" means apart from a legalistic following of the Torah. Am I obeying the Torah by the letter? Jesus gives an example in Matt 5 "you have heard it said that though shall not commit adultery. But I say if you even look upon a woman with lust, you have committed adultery (again, forgive if this is not a word-for-word citation) Jesus disagrees with the Mishna having to "draw lines" on what constitutes adultery - vaginal penetration. Does lusting after a woman break the commandment? To a legalist, no. To one following the spiritual intent of the Divine Lawmaker, yes it is.

Got to go, if I didn't clarify, let me know in your response.

Regards

 

[Grappler]

Yeah, it seems clear to me from the Scriptures that it is a process.

A process??lol You are either a child of god or you are not. Jesus said all that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out. John 6:37 Does that sound like a 'process'??

 

[Grappler]

Agree. Too many people think they are of the specific predestined elect, when we can't possibly know that until we are standing before the judgment seat...

Regards

Speak for yourself. I was predestined before the foundation of world. He gave me his spirit and i am his child. I am one of the elect and God gets all the glory.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, the inheritance is not salvation, it is the land promised to Abraham.

"14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14 NIV)

However, receiving forgiveness of sins doesn't guarantee one will be saved in the end. At baptism one is forgiven of their past sins, not future sins. So, future sins are something one must contend with.

No. Actually when you placed your faith in Jesus Christ, all your sins, past and future were covered:

"24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:24-26 NIV)



"...we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:10-14 NIV)



If you continue in your faith in Christ you will continue in the Priest and sacrifice that continually stays before God in heaven, making continual atonement for those who are trusting in them to do that for them. Unlike the old covenant where the sacrifice was consumed, or the priest left the Temple, or he was unclean and unacceptable to minister, or he died, and the sacrifice had to be made all over again next time you sinned.

Now we can argue what to me is the real point of contention: Can a person who started out in a genuine, justifying, sanctifying faith in the ongoing, never-ending ministry of Christ cease to have faith in that ministry?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

People can lose their inheritance when they throw it away. NO ONE who commits murder and a long list of other sins, unrepentented for, shall enter the Kingdom. Not even Christians. God plays no favorites, Paul tells us this in Romans.

Regards

The author of Hebrews warns us to not be "godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done." (Hebrews 12:16-17 NIV)

It does seem we are being warned that even real faith, the faith that did indeed inherit salvation, can be left behind in favor of a later decision to indulge the things of the world. But I don't think for a moment this is talking about the struggles and failures of the honest, but weak Christian, but rather the 'believer' who knowingly and willfully discards the promise in favor of the world. IOW, they no longer care about the inheritance, just as Esau didn't care about the inheritance he was in line for. He knowingly and willfully discarded it in favor of the immediacy of his own appetite.


31 Jacob replied, “First sell me your birthright.”

32 “Look, I am about to die,” Esau said. “What good is the birthright to me?”

33 But Jacob said, “Swear to me first.” So he swore an oath to him, selling his birthright to Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau some bread and some lentil stew. He ate and drank, and then got up and left.

So Esau despised his birthright. (Genesis 25:31-34 NIV)


This is why I say you have to know WHY a person is sinning before you conclude they are walking away from God by that sin.

 

[Butch5]

"14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14 NIV)

I'm not sure how this proves me wrong. The salvation that Paul talks about is the land inheritance promised to Abraham, not what Christians generally call salvation.

No. Actually when you placed your faith in Jesus Christ, all your sins, past and future were covered:

"24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:24-26 NIV)



"...we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:10-14 NIV)

No they're not. Peter, John and the early church confirm this.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

John says to Christians,

KJV 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1Jo 1:9 KJV)

To forgive is present tense, that's after baptism.

(2Pe 1:8-9 KJV)




If you continue in your faith in Christ you will continue in the Priest and sacrifice that continually stays before God in heaven, making continual atonement for those who are trusting in them to do that for them. Unlike the old covenant where the sacrifice was consumed, or the priest left the Temple, or he was unclean and unacceptable to minister, or he died, and the sacrifice had to be made all over again next time you sinned.

Now we can argue what to me is the real point of contention: Can a person who started out in a genuine, justifying, sanctifying faith in the ongoing, never-ending ministry of Christ cease to have faith in that ministry?[/QUOTE]

 

[Butch5]

A process??lol You are either a child of god or you are not. Jesus said all that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out. John 6:37 Does that sound like a 'process'??

Yes, He said that to Jews about Jews. If you read John 17 you'll that those men were already given to Christ when He prayed. it's repeated several times in the chapter.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 1 (Joh 17:1 KJV)

Gavest, is past tense.

The Scriptures speaks of being saved in the past, present, and future tenses, thus it is a process.

 

[francisdesales]

Speak for yourself. I was predestined before the foundation of world. He gave me his spirit and i am his child. I am one of the elect and God gets all the glory.

Verse? I don't seem to recall any mention of "Grappler" in the Bible...

 

[francisdesales]

The author of Hebrews warns us to not be "godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done." (Hebrews 12:16-17 NIV)

It does seem we are being warned that even real faith, the faith that did indeed inherit salvation, can be left behind in favor of a later decision to indulge the things of the world. But I don't think for a moment this is talking about the struggles and failures of the honest, but weak Christian, but rather the 'believer' who knowingly and willfully discards the promise in favor of the world. IOW, they no longer care about the inheritance, just as Esau didn't care about the inheritance he was in line for. He knowingly and willfully discarded it in favor of the immediacy of his own appetite.


31 Jacob replied, “First sell me your birthright.”

32 “Look, I am about to die,” Esau said. “What good is the birthright to me?”

33 But Jacob said, “Swear to me first.” So he swore an oath to him, selling his birthright to Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau some bread and some lentil stew. He ate and drank, and then got up and left.

So Esau despised his birthright. (Genesis 25:31-34 NIV)


This is why I say you have to know WHY a person is sinning before you conclude they are walking away from God by that sin.

Agreed. It must be willfully and purposely making a decision to walk away from Christ and follow sin.

Regards

 

[Grappler]

Yes, He said that to Jews about Jews. If you read John 17 you'll that those men were already given to Christ when He prayed. it's repeated several times in the chapter.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 1 (Joh 17:1 KJV)

Gavest, is past tense.

The Scriptures speaks of being saved in the past, present, and future tenses, thus it is a process.

What??lol Jews? i guess you mean Judeans because they did not refer to each other as 'Jews' in those days. Nice that you mentioned John 17 because if you read verses 20 and 21 you will see that Jesus not only spoke to his followers of his day but also those who will believe (you know like the future) that they may all be one. Jew or Gentile or whatever means nothing we are all one in Christ. I happen to be one of those who Jesus prayed for in verse 20.

 

[Grappler]

Verse? I don't seem to recall any mention of "Grappler" in the Bible...

Oh you don't know...i would have thought that you would have known some verses that supported what i posted...let us start with Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, .... Now if you notice the words 'us' and 'we' ....that refers to Grappler also.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Maybe this will help. Billy & Bubba are walking down the street. Billy is listening to his ipod. Billy & Bubba run into their friend Bob while walking down the street. Billy gives his friend Bob his ipod. Who did Bob get the ipod from? He got the ipod from Billy...not Bubba...but Billy was not alone. So, although he recieved the ipod from Billy alone, Billy was not alone (he was with Bubba). Just as we are saved through faith alone, but, our faith is not alone (accompanied by works)...but the works don't take part in saving us, so we are saved by faith alone.



Not broadening the definition. Faith- when we put our trust & confidence in him. Like I stated before, repentance- a change of heart/mind. When we put faith in him we have seen our sinfullness...we feel convicted...we see our need for him...& we turn from our old ways...turn to him...have a change of heart/mind (repentance)...put our faith in him...trust him...rely on him...we repent (change our mind/heart). This then leads to obedience & works (that are not worthless). This is why True Faith (not dead/false faith) WILL have works. We know that if someone does not have works then their faith is dead/false, thus faith without works is dead.




lol...:biglol...I like you francisdesales...you got a sense of humor on ya.



He calls you to trust him if that is what you mean. But, at some point you do have to actually put your trust in him, so...yes, it does happen in a moment...if it happens. Trust might be learned over time, because we are reluctant to trust...but when it happens...it happens.

No, you don't need to peg the moment you were saved. Some people don't really even know the moment they were saved...this stuff usually kinda comes in hindsight...as He is opening our eyes. some people know the exact date, some don't.

The event of justification took place on the cross when Jesus took the punishment for our sins, so that we could be justified through his righteousness when we put faith in him.
We are justified (made right in God's sight) By grace through faith in Jesus...we are saved from condemnation. We are reborn (born of the spirit) and we are being sanctified (made holy), we are being saved from sin & its consequence (ongoing)...and we will be saved from wrath. We are secure in our salvation...He keeps us in our faith. If someone says they are a believer and then becomes an unbeliever...we know that they were never really a believer.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.



I have a few questions for you. I am a little confused. You say that we can't earn salvation. Then you say we need works to make our faith slavific & that you do works to enter his kingdom (along with faith)....how is this not earning salvation? If you must do these works for salvation & in order to enter the kingdom of heaven...how is that not doing works to earn salvation? Also, how is it that you agree that we are saved by faith 'apart from' works, yet works are 'a part of' our salvation...they are either 'a part of' our salvation or they are 'apart from' our salvation...which is it? Do you think that maybe you are the one trying to have it both ways, or am I missing something?

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Are you missing something? Looks like it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not sure how this proves me wrong.

Not sure? But it plainly says salvation is inherited:

"...who will inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14 NIV)

The salvation that Paul talks about is the land inheritance promised to Abraham, not what Christians generally call salvation.

An eternal dwelling place is certainly part of the promise of salvation. But we inherit all the benefits of salvation in steps. For now we have the "grapes of Eschol", the Holy Spirit, while we are in these unglorified bodies.

One day we will have glorified bodies, the fullness of the Spirit, and an eternal dwelling where we will be with God forever. If you continue in your faith to the end you will continue in the salvation that has already begun for those who believe, but which we take possession of in stages.

No they're not. Peter, John and the early church confirm this.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Of course we know the passage I quoted in Hebrews isn't saying we are made perfect in behavior when we first believe. We all know that. So it's apparent that the author is making reference to our legal standing before God. That is what is perfected when we believe. That is what it means to be 'justified'. It happened when we believed. And you continue in that declaration of righteousness as long as you continue to believe.

John says to Christians,

KJV 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1Jo 1:9 KJV)

But he also records Jesus' words here to help us understand the difference between the cleansing of when we first believe and the cleansing when we sin after being saved:

"Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean." (John 13:10 NIV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Are you missing something? Looks like it.

Outside of Jesus, who is this person that has ever done that?

Nobody has ever done that. Nobody can do that. That's why nobody can be justified by the law.

Read the context and you can see the point Paul is trying to make to the church at Rome. If you believe that you are justified by the law, you have to be a keeper of the law to be justified by the law. And he shows them they have not done that. No one can. So he brings them to the conclusion that no one can be justified by the law.

 

[francisdesales]

Oh you don't know...i would have thought that you would have known some verses that supported what i posted...let us start with Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us[b] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, .... Now if you notice the words 'us' and 'we' ....that refers to Grappler also.

Perhaps "us" and "we" refers to Grappler. Perhaps it doesn't. That's not exactly a certainty, is it...

We won't know until judgment day. But it is all conjecture to wedge yourself into Ephesian verses, considering it was written to Ephesus, not the Americas.

I plan on begging God for mercy rather than making such a presumption.

Regards

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

No, the inheritance is not salvation, it is the land promised to Abraham.

Christians are not promised the land. That promise remains Israel's promise. The inheritance spoken of here is our salvation.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

People can lose their inheritance when they throw it away.

Impossible. We did nothing to "earn" it, we can do nothing to keep it. Christ is responsible for delivering us before the Father, spotless and blameless.

NO ONE who commits murder and a long list of other sins, unrepentented for, shall enter the Kingdom. Not even Christians. God plays no favorites, Paul tells us this in Romans.

While your latter to sentences are correct, they do not support the incorrect nature of your first. We cannot lose our salvation. Repentance does not "secure" salvation. Sola fide.

 

[veryberry]

What does Bubba have to do with anything in this transaction?

Bubba (works) had nothing to do with the transaction (getting salvation). Thats kinda the point. Although, he (Bubba/works) was with Billy (faith), he did not take part in the transaction (getting salvation).

This cannot be an analogy regarding faith/works, since works MUST be present for faith to be "valid". Billy didn't need Bob there.

And I think this is where we differ in our beliefs. I don't believe that works make faith slavific & you do. We don't "need" works to get salvation...the works are a result of us believing & trusting him (faith in him).

Seems that in James 2, when he talks about 'dead faith' you see this as 'genuine faith w/out works' (dead faith), while I see it as 'false faith (dead faith) w/out works'. But, we know that this 'dead faith' is false faith because James compares it with the devils believing (showing that this dead faith is belief w/out trust & confidence). We know that actual faith is belief with trust & confidence, thus dead faith is false faith...unlike Abrahams faith which James uses to describe as the faith that saves...the faith that saves will result in works...but dead/false faith does not save...and if someone says they have faith & does not have works...then they have this 'dead/false faith'...they are professing faith (don't really have faith).

When if Bubba had pleaded with Billy to give Bob the Ipod? It would seem that Bubba had something to do with the giving of the Ipod. But in your situation? Bubba does nothing. You might as well have said : Billy was not alone, he was wearing clothes...

Yes, Bubba (works) does nothing for Bob (believer) to recieve the ipod (salvation) from Billy (Faith).

Bubba (works) has nothing to do with Bob (believer) reciving the ipod (salvation) through Billy (faith).

Billy alone gives, but, the Billy that gives is not alone...
Faith alone saves, but, the faith that saves is not alone.

Repentance is not faith.

That is correct.

Jesus says "repent and believe in the Gospel" Our Lord is not being redundant. Faith in God and repentance for what we did by sinning are two different, albeit related, things.

Yes, two things that occur together. As you put your faith in him you are also repenting (changing your mind).

Yes, we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously. Glad you appreciate my particular "talent" from God!

My point is that the BEGINNING is not as important as MAINTAINING that trust. "He who perseveres until the end is saved". Too much emphasis is put on that "moment", as if THAT determines our destiny. Clearly, the Bible says we must continue trusting and believing in God. Since this journey towards God is ongoing, the specific interaction of our faith and works is not so important to me, as long as my works are done out of love and trust in God. Again, I see it as arguing over which is more important, the chicken or the egg. It would seem, according to James, that we need BOTH faith and works (HE says that we are saved by works, but I believe he means faith-moved works)

Our beliefs differ in a pretty big way...I don't believe he says we are saved by works (even the faith moved ones). Thats why I say "saved by faith alone".

Many people profess to believe in Christ but when their faith is tested they give up (they do not endure). He who endures to the end is saved.

You see how different our beliefs are? At first glance our beliefs may seem pretty similar but they're not. The Bible tells us that it is impossible to please God without faith. I believe that no matter why we think we are doing works, it is not pleasing to God without faith. If we are relying on/trusting in our works to take part in saving us, then we are not really trusting in HIM to save us by grace through faith in Jesus. The IMPORTANT thing is to actually trust...rely & depend on HIM...not your works, not baptism, not a religion...not anything but JESUS! He is the only one that can save you...put your faith in HIM to save you by grace through faith

Proverbs 3:5-6---5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

That is initial justification. But we continue to be justified as we bear fruit that came from the seed of God's grace. As we journey through life, hopefully, we continue to be seen as just in God's eyes because of our faith-filled works, done by God moving our will to do these things. The Biblical example of this is Abraham, who the NT sees as being justified on three separate occasions. So again, it is not that one moment of the past that holds primary importance in the spiritual journey, although we must make that first step. What is important is that we are seen as justified at the END!

Again our beliefs differ here...I believe that we are justified before God through faith not works. We are seen as just in God's eyes through Jesus...when we truly believe...we are in Jesus & he is in us...it is not our righteousness that He sees, but, it is Jesus' righteousness that is making us just in His eyes through faith. We can not be perfect in our flesh here on earth & connot make ourselves righteous (this is why we need Jesus). The Bible tells us that Abraham was justified before God because he believed God. 'The moment' or 'rebirth' is very important & special...the Bible tells us that we must be 'born again' to enter into the kingdom of God...& this is the moment we are saved. But, again I can see that our beliefs are just different.

Not against our will. Clearly, we CAN sin, and if we don't repent, how can we consider ourselves "saved"? Being saved is sharing in the divine nature. If we purposely sin, the blood of Christ no longer applies to us (Hebrews 10:26-30)

In Heb. 10:26-30----He is talking about apostacy...This is saying IF we were to come to true faith and then go back to rejecting Christ...then there is no more sacrifice for sins...meaning, no more hope for salvation. (You would need a new sacrifice...a new covenant...Jesus would have to die again<---these things wont happen). This is hypothetical (in theory).

Heb.10:39 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

That's patently false.

EVERYONE sins, John says those who say the don't sin are liars.

Does this sin mean you were "never saved"?

I was not refering to 'sin'. There was nothing about 'sin' in my statement. We all sin...this is why we need Jesus. You still sin after you are saved, you can't be perfect in the flesh...we are fighting a battle here...but we have the spirit to guide us through all things...we are being sanctified. But, we dont live a life of sin like before, because we are now living for HIM. We don't knowingly continue in deliberate, defiant disobedience to God.

It depends upon my interior motives for doing the "works". I must obey God's commandments. But why am I? What drives me to? Faith is nothing without love. I can even have faith to move mountains, but it is NOTHING without love. Johh says essentially the same thing when he states "how can you say you love God, whom you cannot see, when you do not love your neighbor. Such a person is a liar" (paraphrase, am in a hurry). I must obey God - do works - if you will. This does not earn me heaven. But disobedience earns me eternal separation from God.

This does not really answer the question I asked, which was:
If you must do these works for salvation & in order to enter the kingdom of heaven...how is that not doing works to earn salvation?

If you are doing works to enter the kingdom of heaven...if your works make your faith slavific...then that means that you must do works to earn salvation.

to earn something means to obtain something in return for labor or service...to merit something. Just like when you go to work & obtain money in return for work.

If you say that you MUST obey God...do works...to go to heaven or to get salvation, & that you do works to go to heaven...this is earning salvation.

You are doing works to get salvation...earning salvation through works + faith

It doesn't matter why else you are doing the works...you are still doing them to get salvation...just like you go to work...& work to get money (even though you might love your job).

Salvation is a gift of grace through faith...grace is unmerited...meaning salvation can not be earned...meaning doing works of any kind (for whatever reason you do them) wont take any part in getting you salvation or getting you into heaven.

"apart from works" means apart from a legalistic following of the Torah. Am I obeying the Torah by the letter? Jesus gives an example in Matt 5 "you have heard it said that though shall not commit adultery. But I say if you even look upon a woman with lust, you have committed adultery (again, forgive if this is not a word-for-word citation) Jesus disagrees with the Mishna having to "draw lines" on what constitutes adultery - vaginal penetration. Does lusting after a woman break the commandment? To a legalist, no. To one following the spiritual intent of the Divine Lawmaker, yes it is.

Got to go, if I didn't clarify, let me know in your response.

Regards

Okay so 'saved apart from works' does not mean 'saved apart from actual works' to you, but, rather 'saved apart from the act of following the law a certain way (legalisticaly)'...this does not make a whole lot of sense...we have very different beliefs...I believe that we are saved through faith, and we are born again, and He begins to transform us, he writes his laws in our hearts & we do not make void the law through faith but we establish the law. And although we are saved by grace through faith and this results in works, those works do not take part in saving us.

Obviously we have very different beliefs...but that doesn't mean that we have to dislike/hate eachother (commit murder in our hearts).

 

[veryberry]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Are you missing something? Looks like it.

Perhaps you should take this verse in context. Also, keep reading on to Romans 3

Read: Romans 3:9-31 , Romans 3:20 in particular. Read: Romans 3:28
Also, Gal.2:16

Read; Romans 3:21-31 --to see how there is righteousness w/out the law through faith and we are made righteous through his righteousness when we have faith in him.

 

[francisdesales]

Impossible. We did nothing to "earn" it, we can do nothing to keep it. Christ is responsible for delivering us before the Father, spotless and blameless.

While your latter to sentences are correct, they do not support the incorrect nature of your first. We cannot lose our salvation. Repentance does not "secure" salvation. Sola fide.

Salvation is conditional. Is it not?

Repent and believe. And you will be saved.

When if you don't?

Regards