Jethro Bodine
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is believing/faith a work ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Jethro Bodine
Member
My point is if you say that the people in Hebrews 6:4-6 are born again people, and you do say that, then that means born again people can fall away. Your attempt to make that which is impossible in the passage mean falling away, rather than being allowed to repent again, is futile since anyone not already predisposed to making it a proof text for Reformed doctrine can easily see that, grammatically, the thing that is impossible is for the enlightened person to be restored to repentance.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.
But you're caught in a dilemma of your own making. On one hand, if you say these are born again people it means the Reformed doctrine that says born again people can't fall away if false. But on the other hand, if you say these are not born again people then it means the Reformed doctrine that says not born again people can not be enlightened is false.
Sorry, 2nd Timothy Group, I'm unfamiliar with the term vine of Christ and its spiritual implications.
Generally speaking, though, I think that until someone becomes saved, which can happen from the womb (God's choice), they are under the curse. However, I think that maybe that what you term curse, I term Law.
BTW, I should have included in my prior post that for anyone to be filled with the Holy Spirit, or to
have the Holy Spirit fall upon them, they first had to be one of those indwelt by Him - which may
have been your point too.
2nd Timothy Group
Member
Wow, that is surprising.
John 15:5 NLT - "Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing."
I definitely don't view the Law as a Curse. I view it the way Paul views it:
Romans 7:12 NLT - "But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good."
I imagine that you're referring to Galatians 3:13 and quoting any translation other than the NLT. The NLT has it right, as the Law is definitely not a Curse. The Law exposes sin, and that is no Curse.
I hear you. But no, that wasn't what I was indicating. I have never found a need to get too deep into that line of thinking. It isn't really important to me (no offense intended).
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
rogerg
Hi Roger, wonder if that person was someone Christ died for, became a curse for as per Gal 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Do you think anyone He died for are born as sinners under the curse ?
Hi Roger, wonder if that person was someone Christ died for, became a curse for as per Gal 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Do you think anyone He died for are born as sinners under the curse ?
Yes, I probably should have associated it to that but wasn't thinking about it that way.
Do you consider the law of sin and death a curse to those who are under it?
[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Hmmm, very good question brightfame52. So, are you saying there are some people who become saved such that they have never been sinners? Need to think about that, but how then do you see Romans 3:10?
[Rom 3:10 KJV] 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
2nd Timothy Group
Member
Yes, absolutely. But the "Law" referenced in the typical Galatians 3:13 translation is referring to the Law of Moses (wait a minute . . . isn't it? At least I've always thought it was referring to the Law of Moses.)
Romans 8:2 shows us how the Sinful Nature is replaced by the Divine Nature, which happens to include the Effectual Laws of the Spirit of Life.
How awesome is the Story of God! I love it.
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
No, not saying that. Im asking do you believe people Christ died for, though they are born sinners like anyone else, are they born under the curse of the law ? Now please consider Gal 3:13 before you reply
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
2nd Timothy Group
Member
Nah . . . the Law isn't a curse. All translations other than the NLT have this passage desperately wrong. The NLT translation translates it according to the Biblical context . . . the Gospel.
Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
The Law of Moses explains the Curse. The Curse is pronounced by the Law, or, the Curse is made known by what is included in God's Holy, good, and Pure Law.
Christ has rescued us from the Curse? Yes! How? Come on . . . we should all know the below passages!
Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. ... 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."
No one is rescued from the Law. That would be like saying, "Please save me from having to restrain myself from murdering people! I want to kill, kill, kill! Get me away from this Law so that I don't have to Love my neighbor!" Instead, we are rescued, or Redeemed (by Christ) from the Curse of the Lord. This is the Purpose of Christ and His Work centers around it. Redeeming people from the Curse of the Lord is what produces a Holy Effect, an actual Romans 2:12 Transformation of the way a person thinks, and this is produced by God's Spirit (according to Romans 2:29).
Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
The Law of Moses explains the Curse. The Curse is pronounced by the Law, or, the Curse is made known by what is included in God's Holy, good, and Pure Law.
Christ has rescued us from the Curse? Yes! How? Come on . . . we should all know the below passages!
Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. ... 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."
No one is rescued from the Law. That would be like saying, "Please save me from having to restrain myself from murdering people! I want to kill, kill, kill! Get me away from this Law so that I don't have to Love my neighbor!" Instead, we are rescued, or Redeemed (by Christ) from the Curse of the Lord. This is the Purpose of Christ and His Work centers around it. Redeeming people from the Curse of the Lord is what produces a Holy Effect, an actual Romans 2:12 Transformation of the way a person thinks, and this is produced by God's Spirit (according to Romans 2:29).
That's how it seems to me - that Christ removed us from under the law of sin and death and places under
the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. I think the other laws, the ones that Paul was speaking of, define a standard that we should live by, but their doing brings neither spiritual life nor death. Only law pertaining to Christ can do that.
"law" used two times in that verse are singular, so one law of each.
I guess it would depend upon which law you're thinking of. Isn't the curse of the law, part of the law? To remove either, both have to be removed. If the law is removed, then there can be no sin. Is your question when does/did that happen?
Or are you saying I should have used born again (or similar), instead of saved? Possibly, I'm not following your point.
2nd Timothy Group
Member
"Thou shalt not murder" is not a Curse.
Oh . . . Muh goodness
Oh . . . Muh goodness
The Mosaic law was done away with, and replaced, by Christ:
[Heb 7:11-12 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
The purpose of Christ and His work was to save those He came to save but I definitely agree that becoming born
again, changes the heart.
[Rom 6:14 KJV] 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
2nd Timothy Group
Member
I hear you, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I offered. :D
No biggie. I've been enjoying these exchanges. Once a person blocks the angry folks, it becomes rather pleasant around here.
Sorry, what did I miss?
2nd Timothy Group
Member
Your interpretation of what I offered was a little "off." I wrote:
"The Law of Moses explains the Curse. The Curse is pronounced by the Law, or, the Curse is made known by what is included in God's Holy, good, and Pure Law."
Paul explains what I mean:
Romans 7:7 NLT - "Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet."
2nd Timothy Group
Member
Understanding Romans 7:7 is so important. This passage needs to be almost a part of our daily Biblical thinking.
But again, those laws, while important to provide standards to live by, they are not those of eternal life or death.
For example, Look at king David. He broke a lot of them, yet there is no question that he was a prophet and saved.
As you know, we are not saved by anything that we may or may not do, but only by what Christ accomplished
as He alone is the Saviour.
2nd Timothy Group
Member
I hear you. I guess that my point is so simple that it isn't being recognized. :D
No biggie. I might one day present the idea in a better way. :yes