Is believing/faith a work ?

[brightfame52]

No, it doesn't deny it. What you're not getting is you can experience the Holy Spirit without having Him in you in salvation. I proved this to you from Hebrews 6:4-6. Oh, but you're going to say the enlightened people in that passage are born again people. Fine. But now that means born again people can fall away. See, reformed doctrine loses on both counts here. If Hebrews 6:4-6 is about not born again people then it means not born again people can be illuminated by the Spirit, completely contrary to Reformed doctrine. If it's about born again people then it means born again people can fall away, which is also completely contrary to Reformed doctrine. Either way, Reformed doctrine fails.

If the Holy Spirit isnt in you then you are not regenerated. Frankly you lost. I dont see your point For a person to believe in Christ they need to be regenerated and given the fruit of the Spirit, faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

 

[brightfame52]

Well, there's nothing for you to show me.
No where in the Bible does it say, or even suggest that believing is a work of the self righteous works gospel. Yet, Reformed theology says it is.

No I showed you pretty much all Im going to show you, but understand, if you or anyone else conditions salvation on what you do, its works !

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

If the Holy Spirit isnt in you then you are not regenerated. Frankly you lost. I dont see your point For a person to believe in Christ they need to be regenerated and given the fruit of the Spirit, faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

Nah. There is Scripture that shows us that those who received the Baptism of John believed in Christ, but they were yet to be introduced to the Holy Spirit. And then there were the Jewish leaders who refused this Baptism of John . . . they didn't believe (because they did not receive John's Baptism).

The above story of John and his very special Baptism shows us that people could believe in Jesus, but not yet possess the Holy Spirit. A person can be separated from the Curse of the Lord and not possess the Holy Spirit. Spiritual Curcumcision, granted Repentance, receiving the Holy Spirit . . . these are all unique elements of the Work of Christ. I view them all as separate Works and done in a specific order.

 

[rogerg]

There is Scripture that shows us that those who received the Baptism of John believed in Christ, but they were yet to be introduced to the Holy Spirit

Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind me asking, how did you come to that conclusion?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind me asking, how did you come to that conclusion?

I read the Bible and did my best to understand it.

 

[rogerg]

I read the Bible and did my best to understand it.

I do too but have never found anything that led me to that conclusion.
Is that your way of saying that you don't feel like answering?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I do too but have never found anything that led me to that conclusion.
Is that your way of saying that you don't feel like answering?

Here you go . . .

Regarding John:
Luke 1:16 NLT - "And he will turn many Israelites to the Lord their God."

Luke 7:28-30 NLT - "I tell you, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John. Yet even the least person in the Kingdom of God is greater than he is!" 29 When they heard this, all the people--even the tax collectors--agreed that God's way was right, for they had been baptized by John. 30 But the Pharisees and experts in religious law rejected God's plan for them, for they had refused John's baptism."

Have you ever noticed that in the same passage set, Jesus refers to John being the greatest along with his specific Baptism that led to belief. Pretty incredible. And, our pastors really should have been teaching us these things. We need to be asking ourselves, "What in the world is going on here?!"

 

[rogerg]

Here you go . . .

Regarding John:
Luke 1:16 NLT - "And he will turn many Israelites to the Lord their God."

Luke 7:28-30 NLT - "I tell you, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John. Yet even the least person in the Kingdom of God is greater than he is!" 29 When they heard this, all the people--even the tax collectors--agreed that God's way was right, for they had been baptized by John. 30 But the Pharisees and experts in religious law rejected God's plan for them, for they had refused John's baptism."

Have you ever noticed that in the same passage set, Jesus refers to John being the greatest along with his specific Baptism that led to belief. Pretty incredible. And, our pastors really should have been teaching us these things. We need to be asking ourselves, "What in the world is going on here?!"

But doesn't 7:15 tell us John was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb? And therefore, wouldn't the Holy Ghost also have to also be present in those who believed in Christ/baptism of John, in order for them to have spiritual understanding and to comprehend John; that is, given that the Holy Ghost had to be present with/in John for him to turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord (v16), then wouldn't that same Holy Ghost also have to be present in those who heard John and believed in Jesus, and not be present in those who didn't?
Sorry, but I guess my question remains: how do you know that they did not have the Holy Ghost? Maybe I missed it,
but I don't find you answering that specific question.

[Luk 1:15 KJV] 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

[Luk 1:16 KJV] 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

But doesn't 7:15 tell us John was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb? And therefore, wouldn't the Holy Ghost also have to also be present in those who believed in Christ/baptism of John, in order for them to have spiritual understanding and to comprehend John; that is, given that the Holy Ghost had to be present with/in John for him to turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord (v16), then wouldn't that same Holy Ghost also have to be present in those who heard John and believed in Jesus, and not be present in those who didn't?
Sorry, but I guess my question remains: how do you know that they did not have the Holy Ghost? Maybe I missed it,
but I don't find you answering that specific question.

[Luk 1:15 KJV] 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

[Luk 1:16 KJV] 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

But Roger . . . the answers are all right there in our Beloved Bible!

This Baptism of John is very, very important for us all to attempt to understand and at least contemplate.

Acts 19:1-6 NIV - "While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied."

 

[brightfame52]

Nah. There is Scripture that shows us that those who received the Baptism of John believed in Christ, but they were yet to be introduced to the Holy Spirit. And then there were the Jewish leaders who refused this Baptism of John . . . they didn't believe (because they did not receive John's Baptism).

The above story of John and his very special Baptism shows us that people could believe in Jesus, but not yet possess the Holy Spirit. A person can be separated from the Curse of the Lord and not possess the Holy Spirit. Spiritual Curcumcision, granted Repentance, receiving the Holy Spirit . . . these are all unique elements of the Work of Christ. I view them all as separate Works and done in a specific order.

Sorry if the Holy Spirit isnt in you, you not regenerated. In fact if the Spirit isnt in a person, they are in the flesh and theres no evidence they even belong to Christ Rom 8:8-9

8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Sorry if the Holy Spirit isnt in you, you not regenerated. In fact if the Spirit isnt in a person, they are in the flesh and theres no evidence they even belong to Christ Rom 8:8-9

Okie doke.

Have a great day!

 

[rogerg]

But Roger . . . the answers are all right there in our Beloved Bible!

This Baptism of John is very, very important for us all to attempt to understand and at least contemplate.

Acts 19:1-6 NIV - "While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied."

Two things: 1) that they didn't know of the Holy Ghost, or that they had received Him, doesn't mean that they hadn't received Him, only that until then, He was unknown to them, and until explained, they were unaware of Him, and 2), the Holy Ghost coming upon them is not the same thing as His indwelling of them, but instead is of His
giving to them the wonder of speaking in tongues and of prophesizing - different than of His indwelling of them. Speaking in tongues and other special physical manifestations that were provided by God to serve as signs (hence the "and they spoke in tongues and prophesied"), which were to signal the beginning of the latter rain.
As we can see with John, the Holy Ghost was present in John from the womb, so we can know that He indwelt people even before the events of Acts - in fact, all the way back to Abraham.

[Jas 5:7 KJV] 7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Two things: 1) that they didn't know of the Holy Ghost, or that they had received Him, doesn't mean that they hadn't received Him, only that until then, He was unknown to them, and until explained, they were unaware of Him, and 2), the Holy Ghost coming upon them is not the same thing as His indwelling of them, but instead is of His
giving to them the wonder of speaking in tongues and of prophesizing - different than of His indwelling of them. Speaking in tongues and other special physical manifestations that were provided by God to serve as signs (hence the "and they spoke in tongues and prophesied"), which were to signal the beginning of the latter rain.
As we can see with John, the Holy Ghost was present in John from the womb, so we can know that He indwelt people even before the events of Acts - in fact, all the way back to Abraham.

[Jas 5:7 KJV] 7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

I had a tough time following your post . . . sorry.

 

[rogerg]

I had a tough time following your post . . . sorry.

Yeah, I know, my fault. I ain't the best of writers. I try, but sometimes I just can't get it across.
Not sure if this will help, but a falling upon someone of Holy Ghost I think different than of His
indwelling someone. The Holy Ghost has indwelt those chosen of God from the Old Testament. The
falling upon someone by Him to produce special events such as speaking in tongues, was for a special
unique purpose and were pretty much limited to the timeframe of Acts.
Hope this is more understandable.

** I used "fell upon" - KJV, you used "came upon" NIV, but I think they refer to the same thing.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Yeah, I know, my fault. I ain't the best of writers. I try, but sometimes I just can't get it across.

I get it. Trying to discuss the single most miraculous set of writings ever imagined isn't always easy.

As for the rest of your post where you address those Indwelt and those whom the Spirit had fallen upon . . . I haven't ever found a reason to distinguish the difference between the two. I have kept track of every Biblical person who has at least had the Spirit upon them and, in my opinion, being Led by the Spirit is being Led by the Spirit. Again, I've never found a reason to distinguish the two.

What I am certain of, though, is that a person cannot be under a Curse if they are to be in the presence of the Holy Spirit. The two simply do not mix. The Spirit will never lead a person who is Cursed, for their Spiritual Father is Satan, held captive by him to do his evil will. God may draw us while we are still Cursed, but I don't see a reason to believe anything beyond these assertions.

 

[rogerg]

As for the rest of your post where you address those Indwelt and those whom the Spirit had fallen upon . . . I haven't ever found a reason to distinguish the difference between the two. I have kept track of every Biblical person who has at least had the Spirit upon them and, in my opinion, being Led by the Spirit is being Led by the Spirit. Again, I've never found a reason to distinguish the two.

Thanks for being gracious re my writing skills.

Anyway, I think the difference is that the visibly miraculous events were only given to a select few and came from the falling upon them of the Holy Ghost but for only a short timeframe, whereas, becoming indwelt results in the fruits of the Spirit for life, of which, everyone who becomes saved partakes.

What I am certain of, though, is that a person cannot be under a Curse if they are to be in the presence of the Holy Spirit. The two simply do not mix. The Spirit will never lead a person who is Cursed, for their Spiritual Father is Satan, held captive by him to do his evil will. God may draw us while we are still Cursed, but I don't see a reason to believe anything beyond these assertions.

Hmmm, depending upon how you're using "Curse", my understanding is that all of the unsaved, starting from the womb, are under Satan and the curse. Isn't God Himself, He, who remove us from being under Satan and the curse, and with that, gives us the Holy Spirit? Or was that actually your point?

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I think the difference is that the visibly miraculous events were only given to a select few and came from the falling upon them of the Holy Ghost but for only a short timeframe, whereas, becoming indwelt results in the fruits of the Spirit for life, of which, everyone who becomes saved partakes.

I hear what you are saying and I admit that I could even present a supporting argument for what you are offering. However, and no I don't have any verses to prove what I am about to offer, but it seems reasonable to me that those who belonged to the Vine of Christ . . . well, the Spirit never left them. These people below, they were never stripped from belonging to the Vine.

God

Adam

Seth

Enosh

Kenan

Mahalalel

Jared

Enoch

Methuselah

Lamech

Noah

Shem

Arphaxad

Shelah

Eber

Peleg

Reu

Serug

Nahor

Terah

Abraham

Isaac

Jacob

Judah

Perez

Hezron

Ram

Amminadab

Nahshon

Salmon

Boaz

Obed

Jesse

David

Nathan

Mattatha

Menna

Melea

Eliakim

Jonam

Joseph

Judah

Simeon

Levi

Matthat

Jorim

Eliezer

Joshua

Er

Elmadam

Cosam

Addi

Melki

Neri

Shealtiel

Zerubbabel

Rhesa

Joanan

Joda

Josech

Semein

Mattathias

Maath

Naagai

Esli

Nahum

Amos

Mattathias

Joseph

Melki

Levi

Matthat

Heli

Joseph

Jesus Christ

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Hmmm, depending upon how you're using "Curse", my understanding is that all of the unsaved, starting from the womb, are under Satan and the curse. Isn't God Himself, He, who remove us from being under Satan and the curse, and with that, gives us the Holy Spirit?

That's the way my Bibles speak to me about the issue of the Curse.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

View attachment 13289
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” AMP
Romans 11:6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.
Romans 11:35 Who has first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?". Does one self-determine to believe and thus God must recompense him? Apparently not.

If we believe that the origin of faith is the believer and not God then we have sacrificed election in love by a personal God for a kind of determinism by an impersonal force and God is no longer to be given the ultimate credit for our salvation.
The semi-Pelagianism would portend that we need hardly do anything to earn our salvation, and that is to belittle salvation and to insult God.

Do we see anywhere in the Bible that when we stand before Him on that final judgement, that he demands that we give him ultimate credit for our salvation? We do see men praising Him for saving people from every nation but we do not see God demanding this. No one mentions that He and he alone chose those saved and chose those damned before creation and that is to be praised.

If we believe that the sole reason we are believers is from God, we then sacrifice justice and God is unjust and cannot be given the honor as the just Judge of all the Earth. He is then described as unjust. Those who would honor Him, would not ascribe injustice to his character even if cleverly disguised.

Why is it important where the origin came from beyond God draws all men to Him anyway? Does anyone who fell in love know the origin of that? Is it important? Doesn't it make God out to be rather petty that He insists that He alone is given all credit for us believing? Do we really like anyone who insists that those around him give them constant credit for what they did? Does this make God attractive to insist that He insists on being given all credit?

The Gospel is not merely that some are going to heaven, but that God offers a way out of the sin we find ourselves in AND that we can walk with Him through life learning to obey Him and becoming different people than we were. That we get to go to Heaven is not the goal, walking with Him is and we have a vital role to play in that endeavor. Our part is insufficient but necessary. We cannot do this alone and the Holy Spirit WILL NOT do it alone. That it the balance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

jethro



Once again, Job informs us that the hypocrite has joy but its just for a moment Job 20:5

that the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?

This goes right along with what Jesus is saying in the parable, the joy there is short lived, proving all the long they were nothing but a hypocrite, had no real spiritual root.

This is called circular reasoning—using Calvinism to prove Calvinism.