Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

I hear you. I guess that my point is so simple that it isn't being recognized. :biggrin

No biggie. I might one day present the idea in a better way. :yes

No problem, probably my fault - haven't finished my second cup of coffee yet.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

No problem, probably my fault - haven't finished my second cup of coffee yet.

I just finished my fourth (cup of jo). haha

Anyway, I love our Bible so much . . . I cannot express in words how I marvel over what it contains. The ideas are so extraordinary, and to think that they were conceived thousands of years ago when "man" was so obsolete. The Bible is the most unbelievable book imagined, and I would have never known that if I hadn't figured out the tremendous need to read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order. Until I began reading the Bible in that way, I was, for the most part, truly confused.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry, 2nd Timothy Group, I'm unfamiliar with the term vine of Christ and its spiritual implications.

Here:

John 15:1-5
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the keeper of the vineyard. 2He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me.

5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.

 

[brightfame52]

I guess it would depend upon which law you're thinking of. Isn't the curse of the law, part of the law? To remove either, both have to be removed. If the law is removed, then there can be no sin. Is your question when does/did that happen?
Or are you saying I should have used born again (or similar), instead of saved? Possibly, I'm not following your point.

Let me ask it like this. Is a person Jesus died for, justified before God from all condemnation, even though they are born dead in sin, unregenerate unbelievers like all sinners are ?

 

[rogerg]

Let me ask it like this. Is a person Jesus died for, justified before God from all condemnation, even though they are born dead in sin, unregenerate unbelievers like all sinners are ?

Yes, because their justification would be by Christ and not of themselves.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, because their justification would be by Christ and not of themselves.

Exactly, thats what Im saying. so the condemnation the elect incurred by their union in their natural head Adam, it was transferred to Christ, and He satisfied Gods Law and Justice, and brought about their Justification to life Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life

So the elect are born with justification of life, but they dont come into the knowledge of it until they are born again and given faith to apprehend it.

 

[rogerg]

So the elect are born with justification of life, but they dont come into the knowledge of it until they are born again and given faith to apprehend it.

I agree with your post except I don't follow the "given faith to apprehend it" part.
Would that be the same as "given faith that apprehends it"?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Exactly, thats what Im saying. so the condemnation the elect incurred by their union in their natural head Adam, it was transferred to Christ, and He satisfied Gods Law and Justice, and brought about their Justification to life Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life

So the elect are born with justification of life, but they dont come into the knowledge of it until they are born again and given faith to apprehend it.

You're literally saying the elect have never been lost/unsaved/not born again.

I don't think you are accurately representing Calvinistic theology.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree with your post except I don't follow the "given faith to apprehend it" part.
Would that be the same as "given faith that apprehends it"?

Faith is a thing. It's the ability to 'see' unseen spiritual truth and know that it's true. This ability, this faith, comes to a person through the testimony of the Spirit of truth (the Holy Spirit) inhabiting the message of the gospel. That's why it's called the word of faith. Most people reject the truth that the Holy Spirit shows them and convicts them is true. They reject the faith God has provided them to know the gospel is true and they are lost. A few people receive the truth that the Holy Spirit shows them and convicts them is true. They receive the word of faith, taking it into them in believing and are saved.

1 John 2:24
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father.

1 John 5:10
10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony (of the Holy Spirit-vs.6) within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

 

[brightfame52]

I agree with your post except I don't follow the "given faith to apprehend it" part.
Would that be the same as "given faith that apprehends it"?

Yes I would say so, excuse my bad grammar. The main point is faith, a spiritual grace from regeneration gives spiritual perception, understanding of the Spiritual reality of Justification before God founded in the Person and Work of Our Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[rogerg]

Yes I would say so, excuse my bad grammar. The main point is faith, a spiritual grace from regeneration gives spiritual perception, understanding of the Spiritual reality of Justification before God founded in the Person and Work of Our Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ.

With my poor grammar, believe me, I wouldn't be critical of anyone else's writing. Instead, I thought you were describing a slightly different doctrine than what we usually discuss and thought I'd ask to clarify. I interpreted it to mean you were saying that the recipient has to contribute something to apprehend it - which is different than how we normally perceive it.
Sorry for the misunderstanding

 

[brightfame52]

With my poor grammar, believe me, I wouldn't be critical of anyone else's writing. Instead, I thought you were describing a slightly different doctrine than what we usually discuss and thought I'd ask to clarify. I interpreted it to mean you were saying that the recipient has to contribute something to apprehend it - which is different than how we normally perceive it.
Sorry for the misunderstanding

Got you. Oh no man can do nothing in the matters of salvation, he's dead to God, and is at the mercy of a supernatural quickening prior to doing anything.

 

[brightfame52]

Is making a decision a work ? 2

The Arminian freewiller gospel gives us a camouflage gospel of works parading as salvation by grace through faith. It provides the natural man room to boast in their supposed salvation, yet in their mind they deny such, but affirm that they ascribe their salvation to their freewill decision for Christ. However this is a deception, its a cloak for boasting , its still teaching that salvation is conditioned on man, on his works, will, or decision, his mental effort at the least. He can even boast and say he is saved because of his wisdom or making a wise choice. The true believer however has been God given Faith to realize that they have been saved by Grace alone, and what God only by Grace has done, that none of their salvation was conditioned on them. Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works or[my decision], lest any man should boast.25

 

[rogerg]

Is making a decision a work ? 2

The Arminian freewiller gospel gives us a camouflage gospel of works parading as salvation by grace through faith. It provides the natural man room to boast in their supposed salvation, yet in their mind they deny such, but affirm that they ascribe their salvation to their freewill decision for Christ. However this is a deception, its a cloak for boasting , its still teaching that salvation is conditioned on man, on his works, will, or decision, his mental effort at the least. He can even boast and say he is saved because of his wisdom or making a wise choice. The true believer however has been God given Faith to realize that they have been saved by Grace alone, and what God only by Grace has done, that none of their salvation was conditioned on them. Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works or[my decision], lest any man should boast.25

Perfect!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Arminian freewiller gospel gives us a camouflage gospel of works parading as salvation by grace through faith. It provides the natural man room to boast in their supposed salvation, yet in their mind they deny such

The scriptures themselves say that there is no boast in believing.

Romans 3:27
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

Faith is the very thing that removes the boast out of salvation, making it by grace, not works.

 

[brightfame52]

The scriptures themselves say that there is no boast in believing.

Romans 3:27
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

Faith is the very thing that removes the boast out of salvation, making it by grace, not works.

Arminians teach and believe contrary to that scripture and teach a cleverly disguised salvation by works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Arminians teach and believe contrary to that scripture and teach a cleverly disguised salvation by works.

No, believing in Christ is not a work of self righteousness. If it is, I missed that in scripture. Help me out and show me in the Bible that I've been working the work of self righteousness by believing in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

 

[brightfame52]

No, believing in Christ is not a work of self righteousness. If it is, I missed that in scripture. Help me out and show me in the Bible that I've been working the work of self righteousness by believing in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

Yes the arminian teachs against salvation by grace through faith, and teach salvation by works. I have already explained this , read the thread.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes the arminian teachs against salvation by grace through faith, and teach salvation by works. I have already explained this , read the thread.

You've explained nothing. Believing in Christ is not a work of self righteous boast. You have failed to explain how you're right and Paul is wrong when he says there is no boast in having faith in Christ for justification.

Romans 3:27
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

 

[brightfame52]

You've explained nothing. Believing in Christ is not a work of self righteous boast. You have failed to explain how you're right and Paul is wrong when he says there is no boast in having faith in Christ for justification.

Romans 3:27
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.

I dont see where you believe Rom 3:27 or any other arminian, you deny it. I have explained myself in this thread.