Is Church of Christ A Cult?

[jasonc]

I have ,I think once seen a person in worship use a harmonica from the audience

 

[Obadiah]

...Stove Bolts must have gone through something traumatic in the past few months... he never used to be such an attack dog...

Yes, but I don't think his intention is to attack, I think he feels attacked by some of the rest of us. I didn't see it that way. I just saw it as a discussion in which people were expressing their feelings and opinions, some of which differ from his. For me, I apologize if I came across as attacking him. I really think I could enjoy singing in a church like the one in the video from time to time. My only point is that it should be done this way when it is appropriate and not be forced on people as a "thus sayeth the Lord" type of prohibition without scripture to support that. I feel it's far more proper to simply say it's a preference that they follow, not a scriptural command. I understand the scripture and Paul's attitude about meat sacrificed to idols, and because of that I would certainly never actually do what I asked about above, go into a CoC and just start playing an instrument because I have the freedom to do so. That was just a hypothetical example. I just think it's wrong when this kind of preference is forced onto others who don't agree with it by trying to make them feel as if they are somehow "less" than the person with the preference.

SB, I have no problem with the CoC doing things their way as long as they are not putting others down who do it differently. But where I have an issue is with statements such as "Not everyone can worship with only their voices..." which (I'm sure unintentionally, but maybe done out of 18 years of being in the habit of defending CoC doctrine) seems to be saying that those who don't worship this way don't do it because they can't, not because they choose differently. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say others shouldn't be looked down upon for doing it differently. Even if subconsciously, saying we "can't" gives the impression the rest of us are being looked down on. It's certainly (at least for me) not a matter of "can't", it's simply a matter of a different preference for a wider variety of musical worship forms (including acapela at times when appropriate!) than a matter of limiting my worship to rules that I just don't see in scripture.

As for the meat eating example, yes, I agree with Paul, but see it as he is saying he wouldn't purposely eat meat in front of someone who he knew would be offended by this. In our discussion here, this is why I wouldn't really go to a CoC and start playing a piano either, even if I was the worship leader. This would be purposely offensive. That was just to illustrate a point. But on the other hand, in light of the fact that Christians have a great propensity to blame everyone else for putting a "stumbling block" in front of them rather than taking responsibility for their own sin, I don't take Paul's example as meaning I have to always limit everything I do on the off chance that someone might be (unknowingly to me) offended by it. I don't feel if I enjoy musical instruments as part of my worship that it's fair to imply that I dont' care about other Christians and don't care about offending them or "causing them to stumble". And it's not because I "can't" worship any other way, as if I'm too immature in Christ to be able to worship any other way. It's just a matter of personal preference that is not prohibited (that I can see anyway) and is actually encouraged in scripture. Even if it's OT scripture, I've never believed the OT was meant to be entirely thrown away just because we now live under the NT, nor that we are always to avoid something that was instructed in the OT just because it was never repeated in the NT as a command or example. I believe we have a tremendous freedom in Christ to worship in many different ways that may not be specifically commanded in the NT but nonetheless are not prohibited either. A preference is fine, but when a preference is put across as a command from God that just isn't in scripture (that I can see, anyway), I have a hard time with that.

That's one reason I enjoyed the video and really would enjoy singing with them sometimes. I like that they sing well and it's obvious they are serious about their worship. I'm sure when not under the pressure of knowing they are being filmed that they probably express much more joy too. I just don't feel I should be looked at as a lesser or "less able" Christian because I choose to also enjoy some forms of worship that are different than someone else enjoys.

 

[stovebolts]

I was actually just joking about a harmonica because you would never find a piano to play in a CoC.

Stove Bolts must have gone through something traumatic in the past few months... he never used to be such an attack dog. But, at any rate, I found so much blessed freedom in churches when I finally left the CoC. And poor ol' SB might have a heart attack to see some of the audience participation in churches that openly worship with their whole hearts.

Attack dog? Really? You flippantly insult the group I worship with and then throw in unsolicited humor topped with insinuation and then wonder why you "feel" like I'm acting like an attack dog? In all, I "feel" as I've kept a pretty level head, all things considered.

As far as me personally having any type of heart attack simply shows your lack of understanding me, Jeff, an an individual.

 

[stovebolts]

Yes, but I don't think his intention is to attack, I think he feels attacked by some of the rest of us. I didn't see it that way. I just saw it as a discussion in which people were expressing their feelings and opinions, some of which differ from his. For me, I apologize if I came across as attacking him. I really think I could enjoy singing in a church like the one in the video from time to time. My only point is that it should be done this way when it is appropriate and not be forced on people as a "thus sayeth the Lord" type of prohibition without scripture to support that. I feel it's far more proper to simply say it's a preference that they follow, not a scriptural command. I understand the scripture and Paul's attitude about meat sacrificed to idols, and because of that I would certainly never actually do what I asked about above, go into a CoC and just start playing an instrument because I have the freedom to do so. That was just a hypothetical example. I just think it's wrong when this kind of preference is forced onto others who don't agree with it by trying to make them feel as if they are somehow "less" than the person with the preference.

SB, I have no problem with the CoC doing things their way as long as they are not putting others down who do it differently. But where I have an issue is with statements such as "Not everyone can worship with only their voices..." which (I'm sure unintentionally, but maybe done out of 18 years of being in the habit of defending CoC doctrine) seems to be saying that those who don't worship this way don't do it because they can't, not because they choose differently. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say others shouldn't be looked down upon for doing it differently. Even if subconsciously, saying we "can't" gives the impression the rest of us are being looked down on. It's certainly (at least for me) not a matter of "can't", it's simply a matter of a different preference for a wider variety of musical worship forms (including acapela at times when appropriate!) than a matter of limiting my worship to rules that I just don't see in scripture.

As for the meat eating example, yes, I agree with Paul, but see it as he is saying he wouldn't purposely eat meat in front of someone who he knew would be offended by this. In our discussion here, this is why I wouldn't really go to a CoC and start playing a piano either, even if I was the worship leader. This would be purposely offensive. That was just to illustrate a point. But on the other hand, in light of the fact that Christians have a great propensity to blame everyone else for putting a "stumbling block" in front of them rather than taking responsibility for their own sin, I don't take Paul's example as meaning I have to always limit everything I do on the off chance that someone might be (unknowingly to me) offended by it. I don't feel if I enjoy musical instruments as part of my worship that it's fair to imply that I dont' care about other Christians and don't care about offending them or "causing them to stumble". And it's not because I "can't" worship any other way, as if I'm too immature in Christ to be able to worship any other way. It's just a matter of personal preference that is not prohibited (that I can see anyway) and is actually encouraged in scripture. Even if it's OT scripture, I've never believed the OT was meant to be entirely thrown away just because we now live under the NT, nor that we are always to avoid something that was instructed in the OT just because it was never repeated in the NT as a command or example. I believe we have a tremendous freedom in Christ to worship in many different ways that may not be specifically commanded in the NT but nonetheless are not prohibited either. A preference is fine, but when a preference is put across as a command from God that just isn't in scripture (that I can see, anyway), I have a hard time with that.

That's one reason I enjoyed the video and really would enjoy singing with them sometimes. I like that they sing well and it's obvious they are serious about their worship. I'm sure when not under the pressure of knowing they are being filmed that they probably express much more joy too. I just don't feel I should be looked at as a lesser or "less able" Christian because I choose to also enjoy some forms of worship that are different than someone else enjoys.

Apology accepted

What has occurred to me is we are having two separate talking points. Yes, there are those who look down on the other churches who use musical instruments. Some would even argue the point that it's a salvation issue and your doomed to hell for it. But your not that immature and neither am i and I know your faith is stronger than that.

When I first attended the c of c my wife and I were invited to a deacons house for dinner. My wife liked the group Capella who made the sounds of musical instruments. The highly regarded deacon told my wife it was sin and it was a salvation issue and her soul was at stake. Personally, I thought he was crazy and quietly laughed inside. Not my wife. It was like sticking a knife in her heart and twisting it. She has since resolved the conflict and sees it for what it is.

My wife has legacy in the c of c and I married into her heritage. I'm probably not your typical c of c member or ex deacon. ( I stepped down due to crisis)

As far as my comment about not everyone being able to worship without musical instruments wasn't intended as an insult. I can see how you or others may have taken it that way. Not everyone can run a sub 20 minute 5 k. But then again, not everyone wants to. We all have our preferences. I like rock, bluegrass, heavy metal and easy listening love songs from the 70s. Don't like opera and I don't have a desire to listen to it let alone try to sing it. It just doesn't work / resonate with me. In the same manner, not everyone can sing without musical instruments, and I don't mean that in a bad way.

2 years ago the Elders rented a van and all us deacons went to Kentucky to a mega church for a weekend conference where they ended each night with a worship service, guitars, drums and the whole 9 yards. One elder and one deacon didn't participate in worship and stayed in the foyer. The remaining 8 or 9 of us had no issue.

I would say there are more of us within the church who don't have an issue with musical instruments than those that do. But we have soft voices. Btw. I can't remember the last time that doctrine was taught or preached from our pulpit. That being said, we will not be having any musical instruments.... And I'm ok with that

 

[Willie T]

Attack dog? Really? You flippantly insult the group I worship with and then throw in unsolicited humor topped with insinuation and then wonder why you "feel" like I'm acting like an attack dog? In all, I "feel" as I've kept a pretty level head, all things considered.

As far as me personally having any type of heart attack simply shows your lack of understanding me, Jeff, an an individual.

I'm sorry if you feel you ARE the group. But that, in itself, is one of the things that finally turned me off to the CoC. I am no stranger to the "denomination" (Yes, it IS one) You are younger, and possibly have never even seen the CoC I knew. (I sure hope so, because they really needed to change), but the churches I attended were quite sad compared to the Christians I have met since leaving. For instance, the deacons and elders I now associate with may, or may not smoke... but they do not hide it, speak against it as a sin, and then sneak outside the church, around the corner of the building to smoke. Those at numerous CoC's I've been a part of and also visited did.

And the biggest arrogance that actually began to disgust me is the smug belief that they, the CoC, were the only people truly "saved". I think that belief still exists.

All in all, if you are happy there, fine. I really don't care. I was too, for more than a decade... and my wife was raised in what they like to call themselves, "The Church", since she was a baby. But I have seen Christianity in a far broader sense, and I could no more go back to that kind of place than the man in the moon. Many of my friends are still members, but it's no longer for me.

 

[Webb]

If StoveBolts feels attacked I'll offer myself to absorb any attacks against the church of Christ.

God bless,
w
Rom.16:16
TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEACE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT AND JEW --- Webb

 

[Douglas Summers]

Just concluded reading what you posted: "The Bible versus the 'Church of Christ'. If there is a one-on-one on this forum perhaps you would be willing to defend it?
God bless,
w
Rom.16:16
TO BE DEEP IN THE SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT OR JEW -- Webb

Hi Webb, Defend what?

 

[reba]

not every local body of a larger group is just like the other local bodies of the larger group.... .
not every Pentecostal group rolls on the floor
not every baptist congregation sets in the pew like a stump
guys get hold of your thoughts love your brothers.. they are still in the realms of Christianity..

 

[Webb]

Hi Webb, Defend what?

Hi Doug. I assumed you posted the article "The Bible verses the Church of Christ" and therefore agreed with its contents. If I misread I apologize.

God bless,
W
Rom.16:16

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT AND JEW --- Webb

 

[reba]

Your not alone. Not everyone can worship with only their voices as instruments to the Lord.

Sheeesh Stovebolts God would ask some of us to hush up.. :tongue
When it is about singing I have to hold to this verse.. and the similar ones

Psa_98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.

 

[Willie T]

Hi Doug. I assumed you posted the article "The Bible verses the Church of Christ" and therefore agreed with its contents. If I misread I apologize.

God bless,
W
Rom.16:16

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT AND JEW --- Webb

This is a little presumptuous since we have just been told that people attending (and defending?) the CoC, do not necessarily agree with all their doctrine. I would hope that ALL of us have more independent minds than to just agree to whatever someone at the front says is the way we are to believe.

I go to the Vineyard church, but I certainly do not agree with all they have in their SOF. I doubt there is a church in existence that any of us would agree with, 100%.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm sorry if you feel you ARE the group. But that, in itself, is one of the things that finally turned me off to the CoC. I am no stranger to the "denomination" (Yes, it IS one) You are younger, and possibly have never even seen the CoC I knew. (I sure hope so, because they really needed to change), but the churches I attended were quite sad compared to the Christians I have met since leaving. For instance, the deacons and elders I now associate with may, or may not smoke... but they do not hide it, speak against it as a sin, and then sneak outside the church, around the corner of the building to smoke. Those at numerous CoC's I've been a part of and also visited did.

And the biggest arrogance that actually began to disgust me is the smug belief that they, the CoC, were the only people truly "saved". I think that belief still exists.

All in all, if you are happy there, fine. I really don't care. I was too, for more than a decade... and my wife was raised in what they like to call themselves, "The Church", since she was a baby. But I have seen Christianity in a far broader sense, and I could no more go back to that kind of place than the man in the moon. Many of my friends are still members, but it's no longer for me.

I don't feel as though I "am" the group and yes, I caught that. Btw I'm 49 so I'm no young kid just in case you got that impression.

As far as your other concerns, yes, we are a denomination and yes, your experience is valid. You need to know we share the same frustrations. Your not my nemesis in this matter.

I've been involved with this group of believers long enough to experience the baggage you speak of... I'm not going to deny we have some issues. But those issues don't negate were a family and as with any family, you don't get to choose who your brothers or sisters are.

My daughter was adopted at birth. Prior to her death she was angry with me and refused to acknowledge she was my daughter. Truth be told, she had no say in the matter regardless of how she tried to deny it.

The Church as a whole can learn a lesson from this imho. The sooner we stop fighting over our differences and realize we all are children of God, the better off we will all be imho.

You decided to leave. I'm not faulting you for that. I chose the later, and it hasn't all been easy. I get rebuked by my own brethren, and I get rebuked by other denominations. Yet I do my best and that's all I can really do

 

[Douglas Summers]

Hello Doug,
Do you see anything wrong with my post #305?
I am an active member in the church of Christ

Hi Steve, No, I do not see any thing wrong with it. Music is not the meat of the Gospel. But you mentioned my brothers in your post as if we ( of those not members of the C of C) are your brethren. But the C of C believes that they are the only true church and all others are apostate. You don't believe that the Holy Spirit indwells believers today.(born again) That it only happened twice in Act and that was all. You believe that we are not justified by faith in God's grace only, but we need works to make us saved. You believe the C of C is the Kingdom of God. You do not believe that God alone can save us, that we must work for it. You believe that conversion is being saved. You believe that it is water baptism is what accounts for salvation. You believe all Baptist are condemned to hell. None of these are core doctrines that is taught by Christ. I have the manifesto of the C of C and it teaches all of these doctrines above. I have no judgment of these things you believe, but judgment on those doctrines when they are introduced into the body of Christ.

In Christ (really)
Douglas Summers

 

[Webb]

This is a little presumptuous since we have just been told that people attending (and defending?) the CoC, do not necessarily agree with all their doctrine. I would hope that ALL of us have more independent minds than to just agree to whatever someone at the front says is the way we are to believe.

I go to the Vineyard church, but I certainly do not agree with all they have in their SOF. I doubt there is a church in existence that any of us would agree with, 100%.

This is a little presumptuous since we have just been told that people attending (and defending?) the CoC, do not necessarily agree with all their doctrine. I would hope that ALL of us have more independent minds than to just agree to whatever someone at the front says is the way we are to believe.

I go to the Vineyard church, but I certainly do not agree with all they have in their SOF. I doubt there is a church in existence that any of us would agree with, 100%.

Hi Willie T
As for myself I prefer to work with scripture not opinion.
God bless,
w
Rom.16:16
TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT OR JEW --- Webb

 

[reba]

The Church as a whole can learn a lesson from this imho. The sooner we stop fighting over our differences and realize we all are children of God, the better off we will all be imho.

 

[Willie T]

Hi Willie T
As for myself I prefer to work with scripture not opinion.
God bless,
w
Rom.16:16
TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT OR JEW --- Webb

Me too. That's why I left to be where I experienced joy, as the Scriptures tell us to be doing. In all seriousness, it was a strong matter of pride in the CoC's I attended to put on a stone face as soon as you walked in the door of the church, showing no signs, whatsoever, of being happy. One of the most common answers to a query of how someone was doing was, "Well, I'm bearing my cross, Brother."

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hey Reba, why don't you start your own denomination here on the forum.
You can be the pastor.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Steve, No, I do not see any thing wrong with it. Music is not the meat of the Gospel. But you mentioned my brothers in your post as if we ( of those not members of the C of C) are your brethren. But the C of C believes that they are the only true church and all others are apostate. You don't believe that the Holy Spirit indwells believers today.(born again) That it only happened twice in Act and that was all. You believe that we are not justified by faith in God's grace only, but we need works to make us saved. You believe the C of C is the Kingdom of God. You do not believe that God alone can save us, that we must work for it. You believe that conversion is being saved. You believe that it is water baptism is what accounts for salvation. You believe all Baptist are condemned to hell. None of these are core doctrines that is taught by Christ. I have the manifesto of the C of C and it teaches all of these doctrines above. I have no judgment of these things you believe, but judgment on those doctrines when they are introduced into the body of Christ.

In Christ (really)
Douglas Summers

Wow... So glad you know what we believe.

 

[Willie T]

Wow... So glad you know what we believe.

In all fairness, he can only go by what is posted by the churches of Christ when stating what the churches of Christ say they believe.. And that is all he did.

 

[reba]

EGOS