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Is Church of Christ A Cult?

Obadiah said:
I don't know that anyone was belittling them for singing acapela, just expressing our own ideas. (Which we have the right to have as well.) However I still maintain that actually prohibiting instruments (IF this is what they actually do, as opposed to just choosing to sing certain songs acapela from time to time for the beauty of it) isn't Biblical based on the passage from Psalms that I quoted above.
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You will find the prohibition of musical instruments in most of the churches of Christ (not all) based on the desire to please God by modeling after the first century church and as such, model after the New Testament. From the New Testament you will find no mention or example of any musical instrument being used in a worship setting

You may not agree with that line of reasoning.... I don't either. But when you look at their motive, it's to please our Lord. Their intentions are good.

What does Paul say about eating meat sacrificed to idols? To them it is sin because they abstain in good conscience and do so out of love to the Lord. And what does Paul say? He says he won't eat meat if it causes them to stumble.

There ya have it. Not using musical instruments isn't wrong and still brings glory to God. If you must have musical instruments in your worship then maybe the c of c isn't a place for you or others. But allow us some courtesy
 
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StoveBolts said:
...There ya have it. Not using musical instruments isn't wrong and still brings glory to God. If you must have musical instruments in your worship then maybe the c of c isn't a place for you or others. But allow us some courtesy
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I don't think anyone meant to say it was "wrong" to not use instruments if that is the choice and preference of everyone involved. And I don't see anyone saying that they "must" have musical instruments to worship. Certainly not I! I only see some people saying that they like to have the instruments as something that adds to their worship most of the time. As for me, I'm only saying that based on the Psalm passage that it is Biblicaly wrong to prohibit others from using them when it is not their choice or preference. If the CoC wants to practice this preference, that's fine for them. But please also allow some courtesy to those who do not share this preference. (And I am convinced at least for now that it is a preference.) Not using musical instruments just because there is no specific mention of them being used in the NT doesn't' make it any more wrong to use them than it does for many other things that we (even people in the CoC) do that are not specifically mentioned in the NT. While musical instruments are not specifically mentioned as being used, there is certainly not any mention of them specifically not being used because they are prohibited that I know of.

Many times I sense a tendency of some members of such organizations as the CoC (NOT directed at anyone here) to look down on those who do things differently as being "less holy" or more worldly than they are. That's simply not right and not supported by scripture unless the thing they are being looked down on for is something that actually is prohibited (specifically or in principle) in scripture.

You said you don't agree with their line of reasoning (which I also don't agree with.) So if you were to go into a CoC church in a situation were perhaps you were a worship leader or had some other logical reason to be in the position, and you started, for example, playing a piano or an organ along with one of the worship songs... (Yeah, I know, there probably wouldn't be one there to play, but let's just use it for the question.) Would the leadership get upset and demand you stop on the basis that this was the wrong thing to do? Or would they simply allow the individual members of the congregation express their own opinions of whether they liked it or not and let you decide whether to continue or not based on what the majority of the congregation approved of? If the leaders demanded you stop because it's wrong, then this is an enforced rule against something that is not only not prohibited in the NT but is also instructed to do in the OT. This is not allowing the congregation members to decide on their own what they prefer but is enforcing an extrabiblical rule on them. This case is where I feel it is unbiblical based on the example of scripture. IOW, to choose to sing acapela because those involved like it that way is great. (I like it too on some songs and in some circumstances.) But to say it has to be done that way with no Biblical command of this is wrong.

To me a good way to tell if it's an enforced rule or just a preference of taste is if every song in every service is acapela and people who may ask are told they may not play instruments in church because it is wrong to do so, then it is an enforced rule rather than a preference. But if it's an enforced rule in a church, it needs to be scriptural. At least that's my opinion of church rules.
 
Obadiah said:
I don't think anyone meant to say it was "wrong" to not use instruments if that is the choice and preference of everyone involved. And I don't see anyone saying that they "must" have musical instruments to worship. Certainly not I! I only see some people saying that they like to have the instruments as something that adds to their worship most of the time. As for me, I'm only saying that based on the Psalm passage that it is Biblicaly wrong to prohibit others from using them when it is not their choice or preference. If the CoC wants to practice this preference, that's fine for them. But please also allow some courtesy to those who do not share this preference. (And I am convinced at least for now that it is a preference.) Not using musical instruments just because there is no specific mention of them being used in the NT doesn't' make it any more wrong to use them than it does for many other things that we (even people in the CoC) do that are not specifically mentioned in the NT. While musical instruments are not specifically mentioned as being used, there is certainly not any mention of them specifically not being used because they are prohibited that I know of.

Many times I sense a tendency of some members of such organizations as the CoC (NOT directed at anyone here) to look down on those who do things differently as being "less holy" or more worldly than they are. That's simply not right and not supported by scripture unless the thing they are being looked down on for is something that actually is prohibited (specifically or in principle) in scripture.

You said you don't agree with their line of reasoning (which I also don't agree with.) So if you were to go into a CoC church in a situation were perhaps you were a worship leader or had some other logical reason to be in the position, and you started, for example, playing a piano or an organ along with one of the worship songs... (Yeah, I know, there probably wouldn't be one there to play, but let's just use it for the question.) Would the leadership get upset and demand you stop on the basis that this was the wrong thing to do? Or would they simply allow the individual members of the congregation express their own opinions of whether they liked it or not and let you decide whether to continue or not based on what the majority of the congregation approved of? If the leaders demanded you stop because it's wrong, then this is an enforced rule against something that is not only not prohibited in the NT but is also instructed to do in the OT. This is not allowing the congregation members to decide on their own what they prefer but is enforcing an extrabiblical rule on them. This case is where I feel it is unbiblical based on the example of scripture. IOW, to choose to sing acapela because those involved like it that way is great. (I like it too on some songs and in some circumstances.) But to say it has to be done that way with no Biblical command of this is wrong.

To me a good way to tell if it's an enforced rule or just a preference of taste is if every song in every service is acapela and people who may ask are told they may not play instruments in church because it is wrong to do so, then it is an enforced rule rather than a preference. But if it's an enforced rule in a church, it needs to be scriptural. At least that's my opinion of church rules.
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Agreed. My answer to the question was just that and should never be taken on the chin. It was never aimed there.
 
Obadiah said:
I don't think anyone meant to say it was "wrong" to not use instruments if that is the choice and preference of everyone involved. And I don't see anyone saying that they "must" have musical instruments to worship. Certainly not I! I only see some people saying that they like to have the instruments as something that adds to their worship most of the time. As for me, I'm only saying that based on the Psalm passage that it is Biblicaly wrong to prohibit others from using them when it is not their choice or preference. If the CoC wants to practice this preference, that's fine for them. But please also allow some courtesy to those who do not share this preference. (And I am convinced at least for now that it is a preference.) Not using musical instruments just because there is no specific mention of them being used in the NT doesn't' make it any more wrong to use them than it does for many other things that we (even people in the CoC) do that are not specifically mentioned in the NT. While musical instruments are not specifically mentioned as being used, there is certainly not any mention of them specifically not being used because they are prohibited that I know of.

Many times I sense a tendency of some members of such organizations as the CoC (NOT directed at anyone here) to look down on those who do things differently as being "less holy" or more worldly than they are. That's simply not right and not supported by scripture unless the thing they are being looked down on for is something that actually is prohibited (specifically or in principle) in scripture.

You said you don't agree with their line of reasoning (which I also don't agree with.) So if you were to go into a CoC church in a situation were perhaps you were a worship leader or had some other logical reason to be in the position, and you started, for example, playing a piano or an organ along with one of the worship songs... (Yeah, I know, there probably wouldn't be one there to play, but let's just use it for the question.) Would the leadership get upset and demand you stop on the basis that this was the wrong thing to do? Or would they simply allow the individual members of the congregation express their own opinions of whether they liked it or not and let you decide whether to continue or not based on what the majority of the congregation approved of? If the leaders demanded you stop because it's wrong, then this is an enforced rule against something that is not only not prohibited in the NT but is also instructed to do in the OT. This is not allowing the congregation members to decide on their own what they prefer but is enforcing an extrabiblical rule on them. This case is where I feel it is unbiblical based on the example of scripture. IOW, to choose to sing acapela because those involved like it that way is great. (I like it too on some songs and in some circumstances.) But to say it has to be done that way with no Biblical command of this is wrong.

To me a good way to tell if it's an enforced rule or just a preference of taste is if every song in every service is acapela and people who may ask are told they may not play instruments in church because it is wrong to do so, then it is an enforced rule rather than a preference. But if it's an enforced rule in a church, it needs to be scriptural. At least that's my opinion of church rules.
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Actually, "Yes", if you pulled a harmonica out of your dirty red bandana, and were blowin' cool, you -- most emphatically -- would be told to stop at once. (And I happen to love A Capela singing,) I loved it during the 12 years I was CoC, and I still love it.
 
Obadiah
I understand your reasoning and I find no fault in it. FYI I was a deacon in our congregation until recently. (You are somewhat aware of our family trials)

I would like you and others to look at the spirit of what Paul writes to the Corinthians in regard to meat offered to idols. There is a lesson to be learned there in the context of unity. Paul doesn't have a problem eating meat offered to idols, but he recognizes that the faith of others is weak, so as not to cause them to sin, he refrains from eating meat

Do you honestly think Paul didn't know that those who considered eating meat offered to idols thought lowly of the Christians who with a clean conscience ate that same meat? Why then does Paul say he won't eat meat in their presence? I believe he saw a bigger narrative. A narrative filled with grace when it came to disputable matters that caused discord among the brotherhood.

My brother, for those strong in their faith, this is a disputable matter. It is disputed because one group is trying to praise God within the context of the New Testament and another group through the Old Testament. Trust me friend, I know most of the arguments from both sides.

Those who say it's sin to worship with musical instruments are convinced it's a sin as deeply as those who refuse to eat meat offered to idols. It's a matter of conscience and according to Paul, it's a sin for him to cause another who is weaker in the faith to stumble. It's called giving grace in my point of view.

What many say about us not using musical instruments violates the conscience of many who just want to follow God and worship Him the best they know how. The more you and others argue the further the brotherhood divided over this disputable matter

You, with the stronger faith, be as Paul was and how he instructed us.
 
Willie T said:
Actually, "Yes", if you pulled a harmonica out of your dirty red bandana, and were blowin' cool, you -- most emphatically -- would be told to stop at once. (And I happen to love A Capela singing,) I loved it during the 12 years I was CoC, and I still love it.
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I married into the c of c and have been an active member 18 years and counting.

The question is this: Why would you pull out a harmonica in any church service? I'm sure you would be asked to stop in many different denominations. To me, that's just weird and disorderly. Not to mention bold
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
This is a question that was asked me.
Not being in the organization, I cannot say it is, simply by their beliefs, though they are different from mine.
I always believed that if people are being born again and living a spirit-filled life, then their church cannot be all so bad.
But any church organization that controls their people needs to be watched, because changes do happen.
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The Bible versus the "Church of Christ"
www.av1611.org/jmelton/chchurch.html - Similar
 
StoveBolts said:
I married into the c of c and have been an active member 18 years and counting.

The question is this: Why would you pull out a harmonica in any church service? I'm sure you would be asked to stop in many different denominations. To me, that's just weird and disorderly. Not to mention bold
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I know choirs that use the harmonica ,g washboard , tub, an glass bottle.
 
StoveBolts said:
That's great Jason. But it sounded like Willie would like to just break out the old harmonica and start jambing while sitting in his pew.
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Pentacostals do that, I have seen churches allow fir that.how can if it's in rhythm be wrong?black churches use tambourines,white churches seldom do.most contemporary worships songs are conducive to neither.
 
jasonc said:
Pentacostals do that, I have seen churches allow fir that.how can if it's in rhythm be wrong?black churches use tambourines,white churches seldom do.most contemporary worships songs are conducive to neither.
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That's fine if you attend one of those congregations. But it would be odd to come into a congregation that you didn't see any musical instruments and just whip out a harmonica.
Same would be for a few Baptist churches I've attended. Oh, and could you imagine that at a 7th day Adventist church? I honestly don't know what would be going on in anyone's mind to put themselves out like that.
 
StoveBolts said:
That's fine if you attend one of those congregations. But it would be odd to come into a congregation that you didn't see any musical instruments and just whip out a harmonica.
Same would be for a few Baptist churches I've attended. Oh, and could you imagine that at a 7th day Adventist church? I honestly don't know what would be going on in anyone's mind to put themselves out like that.
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I wouldn't make a habit of going to a Coc church or that rigid style .my church has in the past once or twice have tambourines for playing in the audience.chanting the psalms in Hebrew will sound like the GregorIan chants of the catholics
 
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jasonc said:
I wouldn't make a habit of going to a Coc church or that rigid style .my church has in the past once or twice have tambourines for playing in the audience.chanting the psalms in Hebrew will sound like the GregorIan chants of the catholics
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Your not alone. Not everyone can worship with only their voices as instruments to the Lord.
 
StoveBolts said:
[

Your not alone. Not everyone can worship with only their voices as instruments to the Lord.
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Hebrews,we aren't know for having soul in our music. While I find Paul Wilburs music appealing,it's not like he has a rhythm like latinos,and blacks.try going to a black Baptist church.anything but quiet..those here might have one or two instruments.a calypso drum made from a 55 gallon drum of oil.a tambourine or washboard. Yet they beat them to death with a wooden spoon
 
jasonc said:
Hebrews,we aren't know for having soul in our music. While I find Paul Wilburs music appealing,it's not like he has a rhythm like latinos,and blacks.try going to a black Baptist church.anything but quiet..those here might have one or two instruments.a calypso drum made from a 55 gallon drum of oil.a tambourine or washboard. Yet they beat them to death with a wooden spoon
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A few years back our teens took a mission trip to Harlem and spent some time at the Harlem church of Christ. They were amazed at how different they worshiped than we did back here in podunk Michigan. Heck, even their sermons were different!
I went to a little black church of Christ in Charlotte NC and wow, that was exciting!
Thing is, we're a divers set of people and worship will look a bit different between the congregations. You'll find your real hard liners down south, like in Tn and Texas, but outside of that, it's really hit and miss how "conservative" or lax a congregation is.
 
The local Coc here doesn't use music. My wife's aunt whom is saved was a church of Christ member.her pastor did the funeral.she was a long time member. She taughr Sunday school there.I have not much else about Edna from lateral a to tell.a local book with parables about real people has her in it.it's dated from the 30s.she was young then probably may be a 15 at the most.her home still standsView attachment 7514
 
Home is built prior to electricity and had until recently two flow wells both are capped now.her dad paid 500 bucks in the 20s to get electricity. It also has outdoor plumbing
 
jasonc said:
Pentacostals do that, I have seen churches allow fir that.how can if it's in rhythm be wrong?black churches use tambourines,white churches seldom do.most contemporary worships songs are conducive to neither.
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I was actually just joking about a harmonica because you would never find a piano to play in a CoC.

Stove Bolts must have gone through something traumatic in the past few months... he never used to be such an attack dog. But, at any rate, I found so much blessed freedom in churches when I finally left the CoC. And poor ol' SB might have a heart attack to see some of the audience participation in churches that openly worship with their whole hearts.
 
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