Is Church of Christ A Cult?
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Yes, he did. He was instructed to go to the store, he was instructed to get bread, butter, milk and coffee. He went to the store and he got bread, butter, milk and coffee. Seems like he did what he was told. Your hypothetical mentions no restrictions.
Please cite the scripture, chapter and verse, where the Bible specifies what we are to include in a worship service.
Again, please cite the scripture, chapter and verse, where God sets boundaries prohibiting things like musical instruments in a worship service.
This is a very slippery slope. If you are going to condemn all things that are not specifically mentioned in scripture, I would have to ask about a number of other common things we have in church today as well. By your logic, I would have to ask where in scripture are we told to wear suits and ties or dresses. Where in scripture are we told to have scripture printed by a mechanical press and put into a physical book translated into our preferred language? Where in scripture are we told to meet in a building that is specifically designed for worship? The list can go on and on, and if I understand you right, if you are saying we are only allowed to have and do things that are specifically mentioned in New Testament scripture, then I know of no established church anywhere that is able to follow your idea of how we are to conduct a church worship service. No where at all. In fact, New Testament scripture says almost nothing at all as to what we can have and do during worship, so that would have to mean our worship is limited to almost nothing at all by this logic. I don't think that's what God intended.
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God spoke to all who walked with Him in The OT.
How much more today, to those who are born again and Baptised with His Spirit.
God leads me and speaks to me all the time.
My sheep hear My Voice!
Goin back to topic. I found this site interesting in a good way.
http://www.churchofchrist-tl.org/basicBeliefs.html
http://www.churchofchrist-tl.org/basicBeliefs.html
Is music included in worship? Please answer. If so please find for us where it is in scripture. Search and you will find in God's instruction book what kind of music He authorizes. He specifies only singing. Whats so hard about that? Its simply a matter of respecting the authoritative word of God. Accept that and all the human arguments disappear.
The Bible teaches by necessary inference. Heb.10:25 commands that we assemble. That's a command. To obey that command you must have a location for assembly. It can be a cave, a barn, a cow pasture, a building either rented or owned. Such details are left to us. The command is to assemble. Understand this principle and problems are solved, that is if you respect the authority of the Bible. If the Bible had a thou shalt not and a thou shalt do this or that we would have a book so cumbersome we could not handle it and many cannot handle the small book He gave us. The principle of Heb. 10:25 may be applied in other matters obviously.
God bless,
w
Rom.16:16
TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT OR JEWISH -- Webb
On the inside of my spirit.
A knowing or an instruction to do something or not do something.
An example of a recent one is He told me to use a certain contractor on a job that I have, that I have never used before. It had turned out to be a windfall of other profitable contracts as a result.
He was very specific in that instruction.
Many times I have noticed that He always seems to have me in the right place at the right time.
His timing all throughout the day is amazing.
He truly orders my footsteps.
He truly blesses me every day in many ways.
I have also been able to bless and encourage and witness and help many people because I yield to His instruction
And direction and timing.
He also bears witness to my spirit when I have followed His counsel and advice.
JLB
Not dreams and visions.
My wife gets dreams.
Others receive visions.
Noah heard His Voice, as did Enoch, Abraham, Moses and all who by faith did exploits in His Name.
By faith = obeyed His Voice.
JLB
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agua.
Guest
Yeah I agree. It's interesting that we're told in the OT Yahweh spoke through His Prophets in visions and dreams and "mouth to mouth" in special cases.
Num 12:5-8 KJV And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth. (6) And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. (7) My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. (8) With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Yahweh also spoke through the Urim and Thummin on the High Priest and we saw miraculous signs given to some people like Gideon etc.
Today we have the most miraculous sign from Yahweh in Jesus to speak ( witness ) to us .
Heb 1:1-2 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
In a way I'm guessing that Christ in us through the Holy Spirit speaks rather through us and to us and as you said we have confidence in this in the spirit.
the urim and thurimim thing was light up when the priest asked questions. they used with the ouched for each tribe of isreal which had a letter configuration to get the message. that is what is stated in the Talmud.
First of all, speaking as a moderator on this web site I will ask you not to belittle the intelligence or character of our members, me included, with statements such as "Whats so hard about that?", "that is if you respect the authority of the Bible", and equating your opinion on a matter as equal to "respecting the authoritative word of God" This is a violation of ToS section 2.4.
So as for your answer, you are asking me to please answer what? If music is included in my worship? Yes it is, in a big way.
I see by the rest of this part of your response that you have not provided an answer my question as to in what chapter and verse God sets boundaries prohibiting things like musical instruments in worship. Since you have not shown this from scripture, and I know of no place where scripture says this, I will take it as this is your preference for your worship, not as a command of God for all people. And that's fine. We all have our personal preferences.
As for your statement:
Here's one example of what God's word actually says, not just my personal preference:
"Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD." (Psalms 150:3-6, KJV)
That's a lot more than just singing. We are not to discount examples of things such as worship and praise solely because they are in the Old Testament. We may no longer be under the law of the OT, but the Old Testament is still the word of God.
I asked you to cite the scripture, chapter and verse, where the Bible specifies what we are to include in a worship service and you cited Hebrews 10:25, which is a very good verse for this. It says to do two things. Assemble together and exhort one another. That's great, and that is something we should be doing.
But I see nowhere in this verse that it says these are the only things we are allowed to do or that everything other than assembling and exhorting is prohibited. Just because scripture says we should do one thing does not mean that all other things are prohibited, unless of course the thing in question is prohibited or condemned somewhere else in scripture. God has never given us the authority to decide for Him that certain things are sinful or condemned that He has not told us so, either by condemning the thing directly or condemning the principle of the thing.
I believe we got onto this subject because someone said the Church of Christ doesn't allow music, and that was an example of them doing something unscriptural and claiming it is a command of God, pointing toward the possibility they are a cult. I support the position that to condemn music as being unscriptural for worship is indeed wrong according to scripture.
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Do the married women in the Church of Christ wearing covering on their heads like the Paul specifically says 'to do'?
I was just reading the Church of Christ doctrinal statement you linked to. It is interesting, although not sure it's interesting in a "good way". I said in my post above that:
and I meant that He had told us so in the Bible as known to traditional Christians. But I see the Church of Christ doesn't see it this way afterall. Their doctrinal statement says:
So they clearly believe in adding to scripture as they see fit. I don't believe this is proper Christian doctrine. In fact, as a basis for this, they even cite some kind of unfamiliar references that don't even look like scripture to me and doesn't even come up on a Google search (1 Ne 1:82-83).
In light of their belief that we can add to God's word, it makes sense that they also appear to follow Mormon doctrines as well, as their doctrinal statement also says:
and once again using some strange reference that I've never seen before to support this.
I wasn't really looking at them as a cult until I read this. Now I don't think I can say that. They believe in adding anything they want to scripture by simply saying "god told me..." and they believe in the book of Mormon. This is tending to make me see them more as a cult than I did before reading this, to say the least.
Hi Webb, I'm still waiting for your response to my questions in post #108.
In your time, thank you.
In your time, thank you.
Thank you Allenwynne. I do not have the opportunity to be near my pc as often as some like. I shall be happy to give my understanding regarding your question.
We exclude "tongues" and "prophecies" for we understand God intended to do so. "--whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" I Cor.13:8-10.
First, we are not talking about what I or what you want in worship. Its what God wants. You and I and all accountable people are the offenders. God is the offended party, thus only He has the right to decide what He wills for worship.
Second, if not mistaken I believe I stated a "boundary" for the music question in the NT, and its the NT under which we live today, not the OT. The passages (if not provided before) are Eph.5:19 and Col. 3:17 which passages "specify" singing, no mention of instruments of music. I understand by "specifying" singing as the music He wants it is His desire, not mine.
Third, Ps.150:3-5 "specifies" God's desire, but its of the OT. Which do we live under today? I can find in the OT where instrumental is commanded, yet not the NT., which simply "specifies" "sing". I believe its not only safe but right to do as He "specifies". Should anyone find in the NT where He "specifies" or includes other kinds of music I shall recant.
Fourth, "Praise" is not an OT exclusive. It (as items in one's will) is carried over into the NT. Even the 2 passages cited above make that clear when it specifies "singing". You say the OT is still the word of God, and indeed it is, but do you offer animal sacrifice etc., etc., today toward God? Many things of the OT have not been carried over into the New. The Hebrew writer compared the 2 testaments to a will. Only last week I spent several hundred dollars to change and make a new will of my own. Only what I included from the old into the new becomes valid at my death. Instrumental music is not included in the new will of Jesus Christ. You will do me and others a great favor if I've overlooked it.
Fifth, you say that Heb.10:25 mentions only two things to be observed: to assemble and encourage. Perhaps in the context we can find a third but be that what it may. Just as we are not told in a single verse what we "must do to be saved" neither are we told what we are to do in corporate worship in a single verse. We do find by approved example the early Christians: singing, Eph.5:19, partaking the Lord's supper, I Cor.11:23-26, Acts 20:7; preaching or teaching, Acts 20:7; giving, I Cor.16:1,2 and prayer, I Cor.14:15. I've discussed tongues and prophesying in post 137.
Sixth, you wrote we got into this discussion because someone said "the Church of Christ doesn't allow music". To the contrary we do. There are two kinds of music -- vocal and instrumental music. In the NT God has specified vocal. Again, I shall stand corrected if it can be shown the NT church used instrumental. We do not support the position that to condemn "music" is wrong and therefore unscriptural.
Seventh, Thank you for calling my attention to my violation of the TOS. I apologize.
God bless,
w
Rom.16:16
Obadiah -- I've pointed out once on this thread that the link has no association with the church of Christ with which I am familiar and a member of . Its actually Mormon, not the Utaw group but the Missouri branch. They are the "reformed" group of Mormons and use the name Church of Christ. In a previous post I enumerated several religious groups using the name in one way or another having no relation to what I belong to. As moderator perhaps you should go back and read those posts.
God bless,
w