Is Church of Christ A Cult?

[Webb]

Do the married women in the Church of Christ wearing covering on their heads like the Paul specifically says 'to do'?

My wife wears a covering in the assembly.
God bless,
w
Rom.16:16

 

[reba]

Webb ...what.. why.. how... does the c o C decide which part applies ?
Most all the OT Books speak of Praising the Lord with music voice and instrument.
I believe you understand that the building is not the church... the church is the body of believers right?

Yet coC allows the 'membership' to sing/play unto the Lord outside the building... This is my understanding from a long time friend. whos family is coC .. Could it be a different group within the over all coC....
Please Webb dont be offended if my terminology isn't exactly correct.

 

[Webb]

Webb ...what.. why.. how... does the c o C decide which part applies ?
Most all the OT Books speak of Praising the Lord with music voice and instrument.
I believe you understand that the building is not the church... the church is the body of believers right?

Yet coC allows the 'membership' to sing/play unto the Lord outside the building... This is my understanding from a long time friend. whos family is coC .. Could it be a different group within the over all coC....
Please Webb dont be offended if my terminology isn't exactly correct.

Hi Reba -- No offense taken. We have corresponded numerous times and I know your heart is sincere.
We agree that the physical building called the "church building" is not the church but rather its the members of the body of Christ, the saved.

We believe the singing in the church is to be "psalms, hymn and spiritual songs", Eph.5:19, Col.3:16. In our every day life we sing and play ( if able to play ) any musical instrument of our desire apart from the songs mentioned.

My mother was a music teacher. She taught me piano. I have her Baby Grand in my home and my eldest daughter has her organ. She played the piano and organ on one denominational church of which I was a member. I have been a member of two denominational churches using instrumental music. I think I probably know all the arguments in favor of instrumental music in worship.
God bless,
w
Rom.16:16

 

[jeff77]

Hi Reba -- No offense taken. We have corresponded numerous times and I know your heart is sincere.
We agree that the physical building called the "church building" is not the church but rather its the members of the body of Christ, the saved.

We believe the singing in the church is to be "psalms, hymn and spiritual songs", Eph.5:19, Col.3:16. In our every day life we sing and play ( if able to play ) any musical instrument of our desire apart from the songs mentioned.

My mother was a music teacher. She taught me piano. I have her Baby Grand in my home and my eldest daughter has her organ. She played the piano and organ on one denominational church of which I was a member. I have been a member of two denominational churches using instrumental music. I think I probably know all the arguments in favor of instrumental music in worship.
God bless,
w
Rom.16:16

In the church I attend there are only a few people playing instruments while the rest only sing. According to the COC, are only the ones actually playing the instruments worshipping wrong? Or is everyone, including the ones singing only worshipping wrong because they are choosing to be a part of it? By the way I don't consider the COC to be a cult. I have several friends that are COC and doctrinal differences never even come up when we talk about our faith in Christ.

 

[reba]

Webb i see a conflict I will say my piece and move on.. The body of believers is the church not the building we agree .. Yet the the body of the saved can not worship the Lord in the building they met in which is not the church ... but can worship with instruments in other non church buildings. I can not make sense out of it... I do not believe this is unto salvation, I know some in your standing do..

I will move on...

 

[Obadiah]

Obadiah -- I've pointed out once on this thread that the link has no association with the church of Christ with which I am familiar and a member of . Its actually Mormon, not the Utaw group but the Missouri branch. They are the "reformed" group of Mormons and use the name Church of Christ. In a previous post I enumerated several religious groups using the name in one way or another having no relation to what I belong to. As moderator perhaps you should go back and read those posts.

Yes, I read those posts. We all can, staff or not. But I see no evidence in the web site in question to say it is NOT a Church of Christ web site. In fact, it plainly states in numerous places that it IS in fact a Church of Christ web site. If this is not a Church of Christ web site, and these are not the statements of the Church of Christ, the Church of Christ needs to take some kind of legal action to stop this! Until then, all we can do is take it as face value with an understanding that it may not be accurate for all Church of Christ congregations. But just the fact that they mention Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon doesn't automatically make it a web site of the Mormon religion. It may not be accurate or in agreement with the doctrines and beliefs of your particular congregation, but I think this thread is about the Church of Christ in general, not just one congregation. What we have shown here is that there is a great doctrinal disparity among congregations who use the name Church of Christ.

First, we are not talking about what I or what you want in worship....

No, never said we were talking about what we "want". We are talking about scripture.

...Second, if not mistaken I believe I stated a "boundary" for the music question in the NT, and its the NT under which we live today, not the OT....

Yes, I know that but I didn't accept your limitation because I believe in the whole word of God, not just the New Testament. I don't believe that means we have to practice everything in the Old Testament, and I understand that we are not under the Jewish Law because this is told to us in the New Testament, so of course I don't sacrifice animals. Also, not all of the Old Testament is law. I do accept it as God's word and I do follow it's examples where they fit in with the New Testament. Even though I am not a Messianic Jew, I do not begrudge their preference of even practicing many or all of the Old Testament celebrations, etc. as they see fit. But I understand it is not required of a Christian to do so. I do not accept that simply because something isn't mentioned in the New Testament that it has to be prohibited (or what you call a "boundary"), especially when it is something that was mentioned in a positive light in the Old Testament. This does not relate to secular legal documents under American law, such as legal wills.

I understand where we see things differently, each of us from our own point of view. I hope we can simply agree to disagree at this point.

 

[Webb]

In the church I attend there are only a few people playing instruments while the rest only sing. According to the COC, are only the ones actually playing the instruments worshipping wrong? Or is everyone, including the ones singing only worshipping wrong because they are choosing to be a part of it? By the way I don't consider the COC to be a cult. I have several friends that are COC and doctrinal differences never even come up when we talk about our faith in Christ.

I don't know enough about the situation you describe. It sounds like some have not studied the subject very deep. Thanks for not putting us in the cult box.
God bless,
w
Rom.16:16.

 

[Webb]

Webb i see a conflict I will say my piece and move on.. The body of believers is the church not the building we agree .. Yet the the body of the saved can not worship the Lord in the building they met in which is not the church ... but can worship with instruments in other non church buildings. I can not make sense out of it... I do not believe this is unto salvation, I know some in your standing do..

I will move on...

Hi Reba--If you will re-read my reply I said or meant to say that we do not use instruments in or out of the assembly when singing "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs". Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I'll enlarge on that if needed.

Only last Friday night some of us gathered in the home of one of the members. On had a guitar and played and sang then we all sang a song together with the guitar. It was not, however "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs" that we sang with the guitar.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Not keen on arguing myself, so I haven't been. Not a salvational issue, so not a hill worth dying on.

 

[Webb]

Yes, I read those posts. We all can, staff or not. But I see no evidence in the web site in question to say it is NOT a Church of Christ web site. In fact, it plainly states in numerous places that it IS in fact a Church of Christ web site. If this is not a Church of Christ web site, and these are not the statements of the Church of Christ, the Church of Christ needs to take some kind of legal action to stop this! Until then, all we can do is take it as face value with an understanding that it may not be accurate for all Church of Christ congregations. But just the fact that they mention Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon doesn't automatically make it a web site of the Mormon religion. It may not be accurate or in agreement with the doctrines and beliefs of your particular congregation, but I think this thread is about the Church of Christ in general, not just one congregation. What we have shown here is that there is a great doctrinal disparity among congregations who use the name Church of Christ.
No, never said we were talking about what we "want". We are talking about scripture.


Yes, I know that but I didn't accept your limitation because I believe in the whole word of God, not just the New Testament. I don't believe that means we have to practice everything in the Old Testament, and I understand that we are not under the Jewish Law because this is told to us in the New Testament, so of course I don't sacrifice animals. Also, not all of the Old Testament is law. I do accept it as God's word and I do follow it's examples where they fit in with the New Testament. Even though I am not a Messianic Jew, I do not begrudge their preference of even practicing many or all of the Old Testament celebrations, etc. as they see fit. But I understand it is not required of a Christian to do so. I do not accept that simply because something isn't mentioned in the New Testament that it has to be prohibited (or what you call a "boundary"), especially when it is something that was mentioned in a positive light in the Old Testament. This does not relate to secular legal documents under American law, such as legal wills.

I understand where we see things differently, each of us from our own point of view. I hope we can simply agree to disagree at this point.

First, no one has a copy right to the name "church of Christ", its Bible. We have no right to go to court in a legal battle.

Second, I believe the entire old and new testaments to be the word of God. ''FOR WHATSOEVER THINGS WERE WRITTEN AFORETIME WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING, THAT WE THROUGH PATIENCE AND COMFORT OF THE SCRIPTURES MIGHT HAVE HOPE" Rom.15:4. Such refers to the OT scriptures. Consult also I Cor.10:6; II Tim.3:14-17 and II Tim.2:15 which states the word of God must be "rightly divided".

Third, the web link introduced into this discussion has a phone #. I suggest it be called and ask if they use instrumental music. If this is followed through you might decide to remove the church of Christ of which I am a member from your cult list. I believe you said after seeing the link it convinced you we were. What is on that link is purely Mormon. The reformed Mormon church in Missouri uses the name "Church of Christ" the Utaw Mormon group uses "The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints." Both are completely foreign to the church of Christ of which I am a member. The current news tells of a father who has been arrested for leaving his baby in a hot car all day, which baby died. It is said the family belongs to the "United Church of Christ" whose teachings also are as different from ours as black is from white.

God bless,
w
Rom.16:16

 

[Obadiah]

...If this is followed through you might decide to remove the church of Christ of which I am a member from your cult list. I believe you said after seeing the link it convinced you we were...

Now you need to go back and re-read my post. I said:

...This is tending to make me see them more as a cult than I did before reading this...

That's a lot different than what you are claiming I said.

 

[jeff77]

I don't know enough about the situation you describe. It sounds like some have not studied the subject very deep. Thanks for not putting us in the cult box.
God bless,
w
Rom.16:16.

When I was in high school I was dating this girl that was COC and I ask her to come to my Baptist church one Sunday night just to visit and she said no because of the instruments. I told her that she didn't have to play an instrument, she could just sing like she does in her church. The answer was still no....she did however go to prom with me where there was dancing. She said dancing was prohibited but could still go as long as she didn't participate in the dancing. The dancing thing didn't bother me at all because I didn't and don't like to dance. Our pastor said one time that Baptist are not against dancing, we just aren't any good at it! lol

 

[JLB]

First, no one has a copy right to the name "church of Christ", its Bible. We have no right to go to court in a legal battle.

Second, I believe the entire old and new testaments to be the word of God. ''FOR WHATSOEVER THINGS WERE WRITTEN AFORETIME WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING, THAT WE THROUGH PATIENCE AND COMFORT OF THE SCRIPTURES MIGHT HAVE HOPE" Rom.15:4. Such refers to the OT scriptures. Consult also I Cor.10:6; II Tim.3:14-17 and II Tim.2:15 which states the word of God must be "rightly divided".

Third, the web link introduced into this discussion has a phone #. I suggest it be called and ask if they use instrumental music. If this is followed through you might decide to remove the church of Christ of which I am a member from your cult list. I believe you said after seeing the link it convinced you we were. What is on that link is purely Mormon. The reformed Mormon church in Missouri uses the name "Church of Christ" the Utaw Mormon group uses "The Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints." Both are completely foreign to the church of Christ of which I am a member. The current news tells of a father who has been arrested for leaving his baby in a hot car all day, which baby died. It is said the family belongs to the "United Church of Christ" whose teachings also are as different from ours as black is from white.

God bless,
w
Rom.16:16

Maybe you could direct us to a website of a set of documents that show what the statement of faith is for the Church of Christ that you attend.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." Mark 16:16-18

Do you believe being Baptized and speaking in tongues and casting out devils is for the Church to practice today?


JLB

 

[reba]

Once again church of Christ is not the same group as Church of Christ....
If your looking up ( googling) the 'church' that Webb is associated with lookup lower case "C" on the word church

church of Christ is not the same as Church of Christ.

they are as different as Assemblies of God and the First Baptist....

 

[Webb]

off topic reba

 

[Webb]

Maybe you could direct us to a website of a set of documents that show what the statement of faith is for the Church of Christ that you attend.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." Mark 16:16-18

Do you believe being Baptized and speaking in tongues and casting out devils is for the Church to practice today?

We have no such official site. Some local congregations have theirs locally which provides info. about their congregation.

We believe and practice every word of Mk.16:15-16. The rest of the context I have already dealt with you on that in the one-on-one.

JLB

 

[Webb]

We believe and practice Mk.16:15,16. As for the rest of the context I have dealt with that with you in our one-on-one.

 

[Deborah13]

I was just reading the Church of Christ doctrinal statement you linked to. It is interesting, although not sure it's interesting in a "good way". I said in my post above that: and I meant that He had told us so in the Bible as known to traditional Christians. But I see the Church of Christ doesn't see it this way afterall. Their doctrinal statement says:So they clearly believe in adding to scripture as they see fit. I don't believe this is proper Christian doctrine. In fact, as a basis for this, they even cite some kind of unfamiliar references that don't even look like scripture to me and doesn't even come up on a Google search (1 Ne 1:82-83).

The link that was posted here is definitely Mormon and as Webb said they separate themselves from the Utah Mormons. They see the themselves as the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. If you follow these links you see what I am seeing.
http://www.churchofchrist-tl.org/publications.html
Scroll down on this page and there is a book called Temple Lot Deed.
http://www.churchofchrist-tl.org/PDFs/OrderForm.pdf
At the bottom of this form is the partial address in Independence, MO
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/independence/
The first paragraph on this page gives the address and speaks about the Temple Lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Temple
This is the temple and the visitor's center is also on the Temple Lot. They called themselves the Reformed...and also the Community of Christ.
This group, as you can see on the original website posted, only has one affiliated church in Colorado.

Below is a totally different group/groups of believers and they have nothing to do with the above.
http://church-of-christ.org/
This is a website to find churches of Christ in different areas and a short description about them.
http://church-of-christ.org/churches/United_States/Colorado_S.htm
On this page of the same site is a list of chuches who identify themselves as churches of Christ in Colorado, there are over 65 churches. They are not Mormon and have nothing to do with Mormon beliefs. Here is the website for one of these churches.
http://www.arvadachurch.org/
At the bottom of their home page is a description of the churches of Christ.
"The Churches of Christ
We are associated with a loosely-knit group of congregations called the churches of Christ. This is a voluntary association between congregations more than it is a denomination and thus no organization has a direct voice in how our church operates. All major decisions at the Arvada Church are made by the leadership and the congregation at our church."
http://www.mountainviewchurchofchrist.org/AboutUs.aspx
"When you visit us...
You can expect to find your friendly neighbors, assembled to worship God the father, and proclaim the love and grace He has given to us; and remember Jesus, the Christ, our example – our Savior. We will strive always to provoke love and good deeds of one another.
As in the 1st Century New Testament Church, our worship to God is simple – without mankind’s rituals. You will find a wholesome respect for the Word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit. We study only the Holy Scriptures – no human creeds will be used by us.
In addition to the worship of our Creator, we strive to fulfil our Savior’s stated plan for us by sharing His Gospel message with this community and throughout the world.
Sermons every Sunday will be based wholly upon the Word of God. They will be Christ-centered and Biblically based so we can develop a deepening relationship with God through our understanding and personal involvement with Him and His truth in our everyday life."

I think this info should clear up any misconceptions if someone wants facts.[/QUOTE]

 

[Webb]

Now you need to go back and re-read my post. I said: That's a lot different than what you are claiming I said.

The link that was posted here is definitely Mormon and as Webb said they separate themselves from the Utah Mormons. They see the themselves as the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. If you follow these links you see what I am seeing.
http://www.churchofchrist-tl.org/publications.html
Scroll down on this page and there is a book called Temple Lot Deed.
http://www.churchofchrist-tl.org/PDFs/OrderForm.pdf
At the bottom of this form is the partial address in Independence, MO
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/independence/
The first paragraph on this page gives the address and speaks about the Temple Lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Temple
This is the temple and the visitor's center is also on the Temple Lot. They called themselves the Reformed...and also the Community of Christ.
This group, as you can see on the original website posted, only has one affiliated church in Colorado.

Below is a totally different group/groups of believers and they have nothing to do with the above.
http://church-of-christ.org/
This is a website to find churches of Christ in different areas and a short description about them.
http://church-of-christ.org/churches/United_States/Colorado_S.htm
On this page of the same site is a list of chuches who identify themselves as churches of Christ in Colorado, there are over 65 churches. They are not Mormon and have nothing to do with Mormon beliefs. Here is the website for one of these churches.
http://www.arvadachurch.org/
At the bottom of their home page is a description of the churches of Christ.
"The Churches of Christ
We are associated with a loosely-knit group of congregations called the churches of Christ. This is a voluntary association between congregations more than it is a denomination and thus no organization has a direct voice in how our church operates. All major decisions at the Arvada Church are made by the leadership and the congregation at our church."
http://www.mountainviewchurchofchrist.org/AboutUs.aspx
"When you visit us...
You can expect to find your friendly neighbors, assembled to worship God the father, and proclaim the love and grace He has given to us; and remember Jesus, the Christ, our example – our Savior. We will strive always to provoke love and good deeds of one another.
As in the 1st Century New Testament Church, our worship to God is simple – without mankind’s rituals. You will find a wholesome respect for the Word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit. We study only the Holy Scriptures – no human creeds will be used by us.
In addition to the worship of our Creator, we strive to fulfil our Savior’s stated plan for us by sharing His Gospel message with this community and throughout the world.
Sermons every Sunday will be based wholly upon the Word of God. They will be Christ-centered and Biblically based so we can develop a deepening relationship with God through our understanding and personal involvement with Him and His truth in our everyday life."

I think this info should clear up any misconceptions if someone wants facts.

[/QUOTE]

Thank you Deborah 13. I pray this will help with the misunderstanding at hand, and God bless!
w
Rom.6:16

 

[YogiD2]

Oba... I found the link "good" as informitive. And imo it was. Good. It gave me more "imformation & insite"....

Also adding a thanks to the extra info posted by web. That was "good" as well...

How do you "know" a COC is "pure" or "tainted" with morman belief for sure?