Is Corporate Worship Important or Necessary?

[handy]

I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced;I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

This is an interesting quote because when taken like this, it can be used by anyone to justify separating themselves from just about any assembly of believers...simple to say that others are mockers, especially when sitting on the outside. The thing is, I've been to a number of different churches...let me add up the tally here...8 as member...and yet only one would I classify as being an "assembly of the mockers". For all her faults, the Church still does a pretty good job of desiring to follow Christ.

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't some issues with the Church...and I do see a sense of pulling apart here, it's going on in many denominations. But, for someone to say that we should completely jettison corporate worship because there is a problem is going against Scripture as well. We are not to forsake our assembly together. We do need to use godly discretion about whom we assemble with, but nonetheless we are to assemble.

No its you who has a negative and constrictive fixation on buildings. Why dont you take it to God and ask Him to free you of that. And while your at, ask Him to free you of the fixation of rebuking brethren and pressuring them over non-spiritual matters.

And yet you have not a single verse of scripture that supports a church building as being a regular assembly of believers.

Come on, Doc...let's get over this "building" thing. It's not about a building, as Alabaster quite simply points out, the building exists so that we don't get wet when it rains.

Again I agree with you. This isn't a church. It's much better than that because it lacks those things that are present in modern chruches.

What things? That's where the heart of this discussion truly needs to lie...and, as you know from your other thread (I forget the title of it) I have certain reservations about some trends in the church myself. We recently left what was once a solid body of Christ because it turned apostate...apostasy can and does happen.

But, all we had to do was just go to a different church. There might come a time...well according to Revelation there will come a time, when believers will need to go underground again...but that time isn't now. There are still plenty of churches that preach sound doctrine and are active in spreading the gospel.

As one who admits that he has never been to a church in his life, just what are you basing this...fear...contempt...prejudice...on?

What do you find so overwhelmingly against Scripture that has invaded every single church that make up the body of Christ today that makes separating yourself from corporate worship more important than following the command to no forsake assembling together as is the habit of some?

 

[stovebolts]

Re: What is your church like?

The crop isn't growing...it's dying. It's called the falling away. It's prophesised. I'm not trying to save Christianity, no-one can do that...I'm just speaking the truth,,,,,do with it what you will.

Are you saying that everyone that attends a church service at their local congregation are those who fell away? when you say such things, that is what it sounds like you are saying.

But as far as dieing is concerned, I hope the crop is dying
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone: but if it dies, it brings forth much fruit.

Sing yer heart away Stove. Sing it Brother. Me and my son love singing along to our youtube hymns too. I know the feeling you get, theres nothing like it. Nothing against that. 2 or more can come together on the phone, by instant messenger chat, in a car park, youth hostel, market place, library or internet forum. S'all good.

So your not against corporate worship then? Why do your words come across as anyone who goes to a church building for corporate worship is being deceived?

I'm not tearing church institutions down.....the false teachers are. If you dont have one in church then your lucky. But I doubt it'll last much longer. All I'm saying is that going to church is not necessary....and you agree so good. I'm glad that someone will finally admit that. I'm just warning people of where the apostacy is happening. Church building s are NOT safe havens from Satan. They are his prime targets.

I think you've missed the mark. Now then, you've got the right idea, maybe it's just not coming across as clear as you would like it. Let me show you with your own words... is that ok? Your remarks will be in bold.

I'm not tearing church institutions down.....the false teachers are.
So we see here that the institution isn't the problem, the false teachers are. We agree here right? Tell me, if this forum is your 'church', then you have to see it also as an institution which in this case is governed by it's moderators and admins. Do you believe that false teachers are among us here? Actually, lets define what a false teacher is by first stating what a false teacher isn't.
1. A false teacher is not one that teaches erroneously if that is how he understands scripture. You see, I don't agree with how you view all of scripture, yet I do not consider you a false teacher just because I disagree with you.
2. A false teacher is one who purposefully distorts scripture and the message of God for his own gain with the intent of tearing down the church.

All I'm saying is that going to church is not necessary....and you agree so good.
For me, it's not a matter of being necessary... there are good ways to do something and then there are better ways of doing something. When we don't forsake the assembly we are allowed to come together and honestly, it's just better. God designed us to live in community and thus, we should worship within said community.

I'm just warning people of where the apostacy is happening.
And you don't think it's happening on the internet? I'd say it's more rampant on the internet than in any church building. Again, this comes (in part) from people, not institutions as a whole. People make up institutions so if you see apostacy, it's not the institution, it's the people. What causes this? Their own desires. It starts personal, and stays personal and when we start blaming the institution, Satan's got you pointed in the wrong direction because an institution isn't accountable for anything... only people are.

Church building s are NOT safe havens from Satan. They are his prime targets.

Satan's prime target is YOUR soul. Institutions don't have a soul so this isn't about the institution... it's about what makes up the institution, and that's people.

but going back to what you originally stated,
I'm not tearing church institutions down.....the false teachers are.
I have not seen you build the church institution up, I have only heard you tearing it down. By your own admission, you don't even attend a church. By your own words, not mine... you state that you yourself are a false teacher.

BTW, I disagree with your assessment

 

[Elijah674]

Here are a few verses from Jer. the Prophet of God. (Jer. 15) See if you understand what was going on with his church & why he was not attending? Also see if you can find what God COMMANDED from him?? --Elijah (and be sure to ask God about His Inspired verse of Eccl. 3:15!)

[16] Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

[17] I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced;I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

[18] Why is my pain perpetual, and my wound incurable, which refuseth to be healed? wilt thou be altogether unto me as a liar, and as waters that fail?

[19] Therefore thus saith the LORD, If thou return, [then will I bring thee again,] and thou shalt stand before me: and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth: let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them.

[20] And I will make thee unto this people a fenced brasen wall: and they shall fight against thee, but they shall not prevail against thee: for I am with thee to save thee and to deliver thee, saith the LORD.

[21] And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

And who were Christ's [wicked] enemies? John 1:11 And you'ins do not see the same Rev. 17:1-5 last day repeat required????? Rev. 18:4

Handy, it was 'i' (Elijah) who posted up the Jer. 15 COPY OF GODS WORD, not Doc. And here is another of the Lords LAST DAY prophecy which is PLAIN In SPEECH.

Ezek.9
[1] He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
[2] And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

[3] And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
[4] And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
[6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the [ancient men which were before the house].

[7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
[8] And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

[9] Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
[10] And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
[11] And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

And these were not even the ones of Rev. 17:1-5.

--Eljah

 

[handy]

Handy, it was 'i' (Elijah) who posted up the Jer. 15 COPY OF GODS WORD, not Doc.

I realize that Elijah...my comments on your previous post were not necessarily directly solely at Doc.

...and I do recognize that it is God's word, believe me, I'm fully convinced of both the divine inspiration and the inerrancy of the Scriptures...it's your use of these prophesies of Jeremiah in conjunction with the subject that Christians should come away from the all churches everywhere (for that is the impression I'm getting from Doc) that I disagree with. In other words, I don't believe that Jeremiah's words are meant for the church, they were meant for the nation of Israel, the context of these words including chapter 16 makes that clear to me.

Again, I do believe that the Church is facing great apostasies. I do believe that false teachers are rampant now. I just do not agree that this negates our need to gather together for corporate worship, including the taking of communion, which I believe is commanded of all Christians (this do in remembrance of Me, do being the operative word here.)

However, I also agree with Jeff that there are far more false teachings via the Internet and on TV than there are in your friendly neighborhood church. Most local churches do have decent pastors, elders and deacons who are answerable to even higher authorities that keep them fairly on track. Doctrinal issues might arise, but I don't see that the issue of apostasy is so great that we must avoid the local church like the plague.

At least not yet...not saying it won't get to that point.

But for now, Christians should be gathering for corporate worship, for the taking of communion and for being equipped.

Being equipped is where I do think the church is at it's weakest point. Probably as a prelude to the great apostasy, the church is embracing more and more the idea that the church should use marketing techniques and music to bring in the lost. Doc had some good points on his other thread* that I think should be listened to. I've seen how good churches have "gone bad" due to secularization, and if one's local church is adopting some of these "market based strategies" one should think long and hard about finding a different place to worship. That is what we did.

But, Doc and Elijah, if you think that there are no churches out there who are not worshiping God, not preaching God's word and not equipping the saints, I must respectfully disagree with you, because there are plenty that are doing so.

We need to be like the 5 wise virgins...we need to keep oil in our lamp and keep watch for the Bridegroom, but not leave the wedding party altogether. We need to hold our churches accountable for worshiping (which is not about music btw) and equipping, not leave them altogether because some are going apostate.

* http://www.christianforums.net/f15/church-transformation-purpose-mission-driven-church-32255/

 

[farouk]

handy:

Yes I agree about the marketing strategies thing.

The local church grows by the work of the Holy Spirit on whom we are dependent. It's not a business.

 

[Vince]

SHAMELESS COMMERCIAL!

I love my church. But this article was the final straw:

November 29, 2010

Many of the exhortations in the Bible are not popular in today's world. But a new study by the Barna Group indicates that one of the least favorite biblical principles might well be "Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow" (Hebrews 13:17, NLT).

I've started a thread entitled "Battered Sheep," in the General Talk section. It is designed to help Christians who have been hurt by churches to learn how to deal with the problems, prevent them from happening again, and return to successful church service and worship.

http://www.christianforums.net/f15/battered-sheep-32356/#post479450

 

[barelohim]

" If we walk in the Light, As He is in the light, then we have fellowship one with another!"

God does not inhabit buildings of stone or wood, but vessels of clay. Believers having the residency of Christ in them, are the Church! The five fold ministry to the believers is for the purpose of Ephesians 4, and the mainstay of Pauls ministry which was to bring his charges into the fullness of Christ in them.."...till Christ, be fully formed in you! " Any *fellowship gathering* that doesn't have this mandate as their goal, has missed the mark!
Jesus' meeting with the woman at the well, informed her, that she was worshipping that which she did not know! And that true worship is in Spirit and Truth!

1 Corinthians 14 Paul declares what should be going on in when believers assemble together.

Very few of the mainline denominations have the Holy Spirit and His gifts in manifestation. ICHABOD has been written over the doorways of too many. Meaning the Spirit may have been there one day, but has since departed, yet they carry on with religious service, but no life.

I agree with Jimmy Swaggart, when he said, " one of the most dangerous places for christians to be, is in some of these ecumenical organizations."

Regards
Barelohim.

PS. I too have come out from among those dead denominations who have a form of godliness, but have forsaken the power....

 

[Elijah674]

I realize that Elijah...my comments on your previous post were not necessarily directly solely at Doc.

...and I do recognize that it is God's word, believe me, I'm fully convinced of both the divine inspiration and the inerrancy of the Scriptures...it's your use of these prophesies of Jeremiah in conjunction with the subject that Christians should come away from the all churches everywhere (for that is the impression I'm getting from Doc) that I disagree with. In other words, I don't believe that Jeremiah's words are meant for the church, they were meant for the nation of Israel, the context of these words including chapter 16 makes that clear to me.

Again, I do believe that the Church is facing great apostasies. I do believe that false teachers are rampant now. I just do not agree that this negates our need to gather together for corporate worship, including the taking of communion, which I believe is commanded of all Christians (this do in remembrance of Me, do being the operative word here.)

However, I also agree with Jeff that there are far more false teachings via the Internet and on TV than there are in your friendly neighborhood church. Most local churches do have decent pastors, elders and deacons who are answerable to even higher authorities that keep them fairly on track. Doctrinal issues might arise, but I don't see that the issue of apostasy is so great that we must avoid the local church like the plague.

At least not yet...not saying it won't get to that point.

But for now, Christians should be gathering for corporate worship, for the taking of communion and for being equipped.

Being equipped is where I do think the church is at it's weakest point. Probably as a prelude to the great apostasy, the church is embracing more and more the idea that the church should use marketing techniques and music to bring in the lost. Doc had some good points on his other thread* that I think should be listened to. I've seen how good churches have "gone bad" due to secularization, and if one's local church is adopting some of these "market based strategies" one should think long and hard about finding a different place to worship. That is what we did.

But, Doc and Elijah, if you think that there are no churches out there who are not worshiping God, not preaching God's word and not equipping the saints, I must respectfully disagree with you, because there are plenty that are doing so.

We need to be like the 5 wise virgins...we need to keep oil in our lamp and keep watch for the Bridegroom, but not leave the wedding party altogether. We need to hold our churches accountable for worshiping (which is not about music btw) and equipping, not leave them altogether because some are going apostate.

* http://www.christianforums.net/f15/church-transformation-purpose-mission-driven-church-32255/

Hi again. It is not as 'i' think, but what God Commands. Rev. 18:4 is very clear??

Rev.18
[1] And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
(outpouring of the Holy Spirit in latter Rain! Acts 3:19's End Time)

[2] And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
(Matt. 25 has the MIDNIGHT CRY)

[3] For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
(surely these are non other than main line ex/protestants)
[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Surely God is DOCUMENTING & Warning that there are HIS SINCERE ones in the wrong place! But ask yourself, just [IF] Christ was there inside of these church's, why MUST they leave.. or else??? And you just might find the answer in Josh. 7:12's last part of the verse?

And about Matt. 25??? This is Christ's Virgin Church (as in doctrines) it says, right? And they were ALL SLEEPING with this MIDNIGHT CRY that you are hearing 'me' thinks?? But my question questions your question, which 'i' see and perhaps you miss?? And that is verse 6.. 'GO YE OUT' TO MEET HIM.' And even then for all of these others, 'THE DOOR WAS SHUT.' ibide. 10

And yes, it is a parable. Yet, for me, 'the message' has the same outcome as the pre/flood ones & the 120 years of Striving of the Holy Spirit had to them with their Ark door being closed. Compare Matt. 23:38)

--Elijah

 

[Alabaster]

you know what made me write that? i was thinking about it all this evening then the thought of that missionary David Livingstone who went into Africa he probably spent more time dodging spears than going to church. I think its ok not to be in church if your doing something god wils you to do to further the kingdom by spreading the gospel to non believers. but only for a time. Dropping into fellowship at church does encourage you and makes you feel better when you can.
church its a great place to receive prayer back up.

David Livingstone was likely covered by a home-based church. That is how missionaries go about fulfilling their calling normally. It is the church that sends them and it is the church that supports and covers them with prayer.

God will never call someone to come out from under the authority of a church body to go it alone.

 

[handy]

Let me ask this...

I go to the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. We follow the same liturgy that most likely Luther himself followed way back when. I basically have our service with the exception of which hymns we sing, which texts are read and what the pastor is going to preach on memorized...it starts out with "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" to which the congregation replies "Amen", then the pastor goes on to say "Beloved in the Lord..." There's more, but you get the drift.

So, is it the opinion of some here that the Holy Ghost has abandoned my church? Let's keep in mind that I'm not speaking of any building here, I'm talking about Pastor Reeder and the family with the little kids that we usually sit in front of and the teens, etc. Are my kids doomed to being apostate Christians because we bring them to a fellowship which has not the Holy Spirit? It is impossible for us to be truly in fellowship with others "real" believers, because we go to church in a building that has pews?

Let's truly break down what we are trying to say here, because we keep going round and round about buildings, as if anyone actually believes that the Church is built of wood or stone.

 

[farouk]

Hebrews does speak of 'not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together'.

Part of the point there is, make sure that the ppl who you are regularly assembling with are truly Bible believing Christians.

 

[Elijah674]

Let me ask this...

I go to the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. We follow the same liturgy that most likely Luther himself followed way back when. I basically have our service with the exception of which hymns we sing, which texts are read and what the pastor is going to preach on memorized...it starts out with "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" to which the congregation replies "Amen", then the pastor goes on to say "Beloved in the Lord..." There's more, but you get the drift.

So, is it the opinion of some here that the Holy Ghost has abandoned my church? Let's keep in mind that I'm not speaking of any building here, I'm talking about Pastor Reeder and the family with the little kids that we usually sit in front of and the teens, etc. Are my kids doomed to being apostate Christians because we bring them to a fellowship which has not the Holy Spirit? It is impossible for us to be truly in fellowship with others "real" believers, because we go to church in a building that has pews?

Let's truly break down what we are trying to say here, because we keep going round and round about buildings, as if anyone actually believes that the Church is built of wood or stone.

OK: One needs to get what is said [by Inspiration] right. (nothing personal) Has the Rev. 17:1-5 ones 'as a church body' left Christ in the verse, or had Christ left them? Has anyone of these churchs changed in doctrine in anyway for well past any 120 years of the professed Rom. 8:14's Holy Spirits Leading??? And the only unity that these all have in doctrine, is what??

And: God tells us to do what? And He is not talking about buildings! Yet, see John 12:42-43 for who these ones choose!! (Church over Christ! compare Isa, 5:3!) And does anyone think that to leave their church is an easy matter?? Think about Christ in the whole chapter of Isa, 5:1-9 & His 'TESTIMONY' of Luke 19:41..
'And when He was come near, He beheld the city, and [WEPT OVER IT]'.

And verse 40 says in bottom/line that no one would be warned of this required message for Eternal life from LEADERSHIP, for He said.. '.. I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out'.

And perhaps Doc for now at least, is one of these 'rough stones'?

--Elijah

 

[barelohim]

David Livingstone was likely covered by a home-based church. That is how missionaries go about fulfilling their calling normally. It is the church that sends them and it is the church that supports and covers them with prayer.

God will never call someone to come out from under the authority of a church body to go it alone.

And Paul was on the backside of the desert for how many years?

Barelohim

 

[barelohim]

Let me ask this...

I go to the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. We follow the same liturgy that most likely Luther himself followed way back when. I basically have our service with the exception of which hymns we sing, which texts are read and what the pastor is going to preach on memorized...it starts out with "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" to which the congregation replies "Amen", then the pastor goes on to say "Beloved in the Lord..." There's more, but you get the drift.

So, is it the opinion of some here that the Holy Ghost has abandoned my church? Let's keep in mind that I'm not speaking of any building here, I'm talking about Pastor Reeder and the family with the little kids that we usually sit in front of and the teens, etc. Are my kids doomed to being apostate Christians because we bring them to a fellowship which has not the Holy Spirit? It is impossible for us to be truly in fellowship with others "real" believers, because we go to church in a building that has pews?

Let's truly break down what we are trying to say here, because we keep going round and round about buildings, as if anyone actually believes that the Church is built of wood or stone.

Handy, many times, because of the regime of church services there is left no room for the Holy Spirit to manifest Himself. I've visited many many denominations, and found this *grieving of the Spirit*, because there isn't any time set aside to just wait on what He wants to do, or be done!

barelohim

 

[Alabaster]

And Paul was on the backside of the desert for how many years?

Barelohim

That is an unfair comparison. Paul was used by Jesus Christ to establish His churches in the world, as one of the very first missionaries and apostles of His Church. Everywhere that Paul went, He went with the covering of churches all over.

 

[Nick]

Re: What is your church like?

kinda like criticising a certain beverage yet never has tasted it.

Very true. :yes

 

[Mohrb]

Re: What is your church like?

I can only think of two applicable verses:

(Hebrews 10:24-25) 24*And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25*not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.

It is important to physically be with people. I agree that today a lot of us would prefer impersonal computer screens to real human faces... but there is a definite advantage to attending a spiritually upbuilding congregation. Real human interaction can't be completely replaced by text.

However, you stated that some were suggesting that our faith was useless unless we were "under the authority of a pastor"

(1 Corinthians 1:12-17) 17 What I mean is this, that each one of YOU says: “I belong to Paul,†“But I to A‧pol′los,†“But I to Ce′phas,†“But I to Christ.†13*The Christ exists divided. Paul was not impaled for YOU, was he? Or were YOU baptized in the name of Paul? 14*I am thankful I baptized none of YOU except Cris′pus and Ga′ius, 15*so that no one may say that YOU were baptized in my name. 16*Yes, I also baptized the household of Steph′a‧nas. As for the rest, I do not know whether I baptized anybody else. 17*For Christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the Christ should not be made useless.

Pastors/priests/elders/etc. are not supposed to be a position of authority. They're supposed to be servants of the congregation. Christ is our way to God... any person can help us, but they aren't the way.

 

[jasoncran]

Handy, many times, because of the regime of church services there is left no room for the Holy Spirit to manifest Himself. I've visited many many denominations, and found this *grieving of the Spirit*, because there isn't any time set aside to just wait on what He wants to do, or be done!

barelohim

i say this in love as i am charismatic. we charismatics can overdo things and dont think that you wont learn from the simple quiet baptists that are holy

if i had a choice, a holy life or the gifts. i choose the former.

 

[craigmn3]

i say this in love as i am charismatic. we charismatics can overdo things and dont think that you wont learn from the simple quiet baptists that are holy

if i had a choice, a holy life or the gifts. i choose the former.

Amen, from a fellow known over doer. Very well said


Corporate worship is a priviledge not a requirement. I have gone times in my life when church was not available. I could get teaching from the radio, and hear songs on the radio.....but what I missed most of all was being with my brothers and sisters and lovin' on God, in praise and worship.

 

[Nick]

Amen, from a fellow known over doer. Very well said


Corporate worship is a priviledge not a requirement. I have gone times in my life when church was not available. I could get teaching from the radio, and hear songs on the radio.....but what I missed most of all was being with my brothers and sisters and lovin' on God, in praise and worship.

Completely agree. . Corporate worship is something that those of us who do it often take it for granted, and those that don't do it don't know what they're missing out on.