Is Corporate Worship Important or Necessary?

[Strangelove]

Re: What is your church like?

Actually, this is a most basic of spiritual matters. There is something within you that is rebelling. I will pray for you to discover what it is and that between you and Jesus, it will be dealt with.

There is something within me that is urging me to trust not every spirit....but to TEST them vigorously. I will pray that you attempt to do the same and examine you're own church and not to blindly follow the man who holds authority over you. (authority which is entirely against the Lords teachings MATT 20:25).

The building is not the issue. The assembly is. We only have buildings so that we don't get wet in the rain and so that we don't freeze in the winter!

I have my own roof to protect me from the elements and the internet to meet with brethren. This forum is an assembly. Are you a technophobe? Oops....you're here on the forums everyday so you can't be.....so....what are you doing here again if you're not assembling and communicating with Christians? :

I give scriptural support here: [URL="http://www.christianforums.net/f17/why-do-we-need-local-church-32341/"]http://www.christianforums.net/f17/why-do-we-need-local-church-32341/[/URL]

Sorry buddy. Nothing there that states anything needs to be done face to face, flesh to flesh and nothing about a church building or being under the authority of a pastor. Theres plenty there about false teachers and wotnot. Wonder where they are hanging out? In my living room? On street corners? Or possibly in churches?

I condemn no one. If you reject the church, you reject Christians as a whole, so where does that leave you but outside looking in on what God is doing in His family?

The true Church is in my heart. I can never reject it. It is the family of all believers on Earth. And I am in it no matter how much you don't like me. You seem to be outside of that greater love looking in and are having trouble making sense of the concept. To say I reject Christians is laughable. I'm right here talking to them.

You really cannot know what you are talking about. Obviously you don't know about the Holy Spirit and how He gifts every single believer with strong gifts and callings that help them work together as ONE BODY, in harmony and with great power and success.

The one body is the Church of Christ on Earth. I can understand how you cell church types get confused about all this as your superior officers are constantly telling you about ONE BODY and yet at the same time they are trying to seperate you off into small cell groups and paired off with 'accountability partners' for easier management. It's the same when they say you need to strenghthen ties in order to throw off bondage. Orwellian double-speak designed to flummox you.

Satan wants people to reject the coming together so that there will be odds and ends out there being buffeted by worldly pressure and barely making it, and not able to focus on what God is really wanting them to be doing.

I'm doing just fine thanks. We all have worldly pressure it's just how easily you can get back to the Gospel message that will effect how you handle that pressure. Unfortunately many modern churches want you to stay stuck in social and worldly issues when their purpose should be to always be pointing to the Gospel.

I think what satan really wants is for Chrisitians to keep attending very large apostate churches where rapid transformation is occuring. Like shootin' fish in a barrel. Pastors like Benny Hinn and Joel Osteen must be his golden boyz.

 

[Strangelove]

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't some issues with the Church...and I do see a sense of pulling apart here, it's going on in many denominations. But, for someone to say that we should completely jettison corporate worship because there is a problem is going against Scripture as well. We are not to forsake our assembly together. We do need to use godly discretion about whom we assemble with, but nonetheless we are to assemble.

Ya and we are assembling right here so I recon we're covered Handy. Did Elijah say we have to completly forsake coming together in person? Coz I certainly didn't. If you are in a good church then go for it, I'm just saying to people to be careful and by the looks of it you have plenty of experience to agree with that advice.

Come on, Doc...let's get over this "building" thing. It's not about a building, as Alabaster quite simply points out, the building exists so that we don't get wet when it rains.

Ok so it's not about the building then what is it about? Is it about the face to face thing? Is that why God wants us to assemble? So we can give eachother hugs and stuff? Or is the communication the key thing?

What things? That's where the heart of this discussion truly needs to lie...and, as you know from your other thread (I forget the title of it) I have certain reservations about some trends in the church myself. We recently left what was once a solid body of Christ because it turned apostate...apostasy can and does happen.

Yes....socialism in church is the major issue. Pair that with false teachers and you have a recipe for disaster. I will get back into that thread shortly.

But, all we had to do was just go to a different church. There might come a time...well according to Revelation there will come a time, when believers will need to go underground again...but that time isn't now. There are still plenty of churches that preach sound doctrine and are active in spreading the gospel.

You say some churches are completley apostate and yet you still think the time isn't upon us?

It's upon us Handy. You can continue hopping from church to church if you like. For those of us who knows what is to come God has provided us with innovative new ways of fellowshipping to gether and I'm simply gonna get used to doing it this way and cut out all the hassle.

As one who admits that he has never been to a church in his life, just what are you basing this...fear...contempt...prejudice...on?

I dunno what you're talking about using words like those. I'm utilising caution thats all.

What do you find so overwhelmingly against Scripture that has invaded every single church that make up the body of Christ today that makes separating yourself from corporate worship more important than following the command to no forsake assembling together as is the habit of some?

For the millionth time I'm not forsaking the assembling. Yes it's not physical assembling but when has physical things meant anything in the eyes of Christ? I'm right here. What are you doing here?

What was so overwhelmingly against Scripture that has invaded every single former church of yours that made you have to leave and find a different one?

 

[Strangelove]

Re: What is your church like?

Are you saying that everyone that attends a church service at their local congregation are those who fell away? when you say such things, that is what it sounds like you are saying.

No I'm not saying that. It sounds like thats what you want me to say though in order to make me an easy target.

So your not against corporate worship then? Why do your words come across as anyone who goes to a church building for corporate worship is being deceived?

It's not my words its your words.

I think you've missed the mark. Now then, you've got the right idea, maybe it's just not coming across as clear as you would like it. Let me show you with your own words... is that ok? Your remarks will be in bold.

I'm not tearing church institutions down.....the false teachers are.
So we see here that the institution isn't the problem, the false teachers are. We agree here right? Tell me, if this forum is your 'church', then you have to see it also as an institution which in this case is governed by it's moderators and admins. Do you believe that false teachers are among us here? Actually, lets define what a false teacher is by first stating what a false teacher isn't.
1. A false teacher is not one that teaches erroneously if that is how he understands scripture. You see, I don't agree with how you view all of scripture, yet I do not consider you a false teacher just because I disagree with you.
2. A false teacher is one who purposefully distorts scripture and the message of God for his own gain with the intent of tearing down the church.

Yes there are false teachers here. A false teacher is anyone who teaches a different Gospel than what we were given in the Bible. whether they know they are teaching falsities or not doesn't matter in my opinion. Benny hinn prolly thinks he's doing God's work.

All I'm saying is that going to church is not necessary....and you agree so good.
For me, it's not a matter of being necessary... there are good ways to do something and then there are better ways of doing something. When we don't forsake the assembly we are allowed to come together and honestly, it's just better. God designed us to live in community and thus, we should worship within said community.

I.....am......assembling......with.....you. Helloooooooo,,,,here I am >>> :waving. Did Jesus know about the internet?

I'm just warning people of where the apostacy is happening.
And you don't think it's happening on the internet? I'd say it's more rampant on the internet than in any church building. Again, this comes (in part) from people, not institutions as a whole. People make up institutions so if you see apostacy, it's not the institution, it's the people. What causes this? Their own desires. It starts personal, and stays personal and when we start blaming the institution, Satan's got you pointed in the wrong direction because an institution isn't accountable for anything... only people are.

Exactly it's the people that cause apostacy not buildings. Good. Now....when you are bunched together face to face with apostate christians and apostate leaders(usually this happens in what you call church), peer pressure has a significantly magnified effect. Do you agree or do you deny this?

Church building s are NOT safe havens from Satan. They are his prime targets.

Satan's prime target is YOUR soul. Institutions don't have a soul so this isn't about the institution... it's about what makes up the institution, and that's people.

You are wrong. Collections of individuals have a group soul. What you're friends and neighbours think and feel effects what you think and feel and effect you're opinions ESPECIALLY when face to face. And when the group turns its attentions away from Christ and towards worldly issues, great damage can occur.

but going back to what you originally stated,
I'm not tearing church institutions down.....the false teachers are.
I have not seen you build the church institution up, I have only heard you tearing it down. By your own admission, you don't even attend a church. By your own words, not mine... you state that you yourself are a false teacher.

No those are you're words and they are without evidence and substance. To say that I'm a false teacher just because I don't 'build church institutions up' is quite ridiculous. What does that even mean? You wan't me to actually build churches? Lolz.

BTW, I disagree with your assessment

Likewise.

 

[Strangelove]

I realize that Elijah...my comments on your previous post were not necessarily directly solely at Doc.

...and I do recognize that it is God's word, believe me, I'm fully convinced of both the divine inspiration and the inerrancy of the Scriptures...it's your use of these prophesies of Jeremiah in conjunction with the subject that Christians should come away from the all churches everywhere (for that is the impression I'm getting from Doc) that I disagree with.

People keep quoting their impressions of my words and not my ACTUAL words. All I've said is that going to church is not necessary. People also need to be very cautious and test every spirit for truth. If they find apostacy in their church they should leave, obviously. Thats all.

I'm sure there are still many small churches out there that have very competant pastors who truly minister their flock without trying to have authority over them and keep things Gospel at all times. If you're church is like that then you are blessed.

Some members here say that I am an unbeliever for not attending church. This is false.

Again, I do believe that the Church is facing great apostasies. I do believe that false teachers are rampant now. I just do not agree that this negates our need to gather together for corporate worship, including the taking of communion, which I believe is commanded of all Christians (this do in remembrance of Me, do being the operative word here.)

The communion thing I've had a look at and that looks like a really nice thing to do. Not a salvation issue or anything but a nice gesture. But I still don't see how you have to be in church to do it or even with other people. Is it ok if I consume bread and wine and remember Christs sacrifice on my own?

However, I also agree with Jeff that there are far more false teachings via the Internet and on TV than there are in your friendly neighborhood church. Most local churches do have decent pastors, elders and deacons who are answerable to even higher authorities that keep them fairly on track. Doctrinal issues might arise, but I don't see that the issue of apostasy is so great that we must avoid the local church like the plague.

At least not yet...not saying it won't get to that point.

Again, the difference between face to face and internet...is the peer pressure. Only avoid you're local church if it's turned rotten. You've done it several times. If everything is hunky dory then I'm all for ppl sticking with their church. Why wouldn't you?

But for now, Christians should be gathering for corporate worship, for the taking of communion and for being equipped.

Being equipped is where I do think the church is at it's weakest point. Probably as a prelude to the great apostasy, the church is embracing more and more the idea that the church should use marketing techniques and music to bring in the lost. Doc had some good points on his other thread* that I think should be listened to. I've seen how good churches have "gone bad" due to secularization, and if one's local church is adopting some of these "market based strategies" one should think long and hard about finding a different place to worship. That is what we did.

I'm gonna get into that a little bit more soon. There are some definate things that people need to be alert for. Very subtle stuff creeping in.

But, Doc and Elijah, if you think that there are no churches out there who are not worshiping God, not preaching God's word and not equipping the saints, I must respectfully disagree with you, because there are plenty that are doing so.

I'm sure there are plenty. We're not at complete apostacy yet.

We need to be like the 5 wise virgins...we need to keep oil in our lamp and keep watch for the Bridegroom, but not leave the wedding party altogether. We need to hold our churches accountable for worshiping (which is not about music btw) and equipping, not leave them altogether because some are going apostate.

Amen. If you're church preaches sound doctrine and is Gospel only without the social pressures and legalism and the pastor is a servant to the flock then s'all good.

 

[Strangelove]

David Livingstone was likely covered by a home-based church. That is how missionaries go about fulfilling their calling normally. It is the church that sends them and it is the church that supports and covers them with prayer.

God will never call someone to come out from under the authority of a church body to go it alone.

Believers are covered by their faith in Christ not by any Earthly organization religious or otherwise.

No church body is supposed to have any kind of authority over Christs sheep.

Or do you still deny the Lords own words in Matt 20:25?

 

[Strangelove]

That is an unfair comparison. Paul was used by Jesus Christ to establish His churches in the world, as one of the very first missionaries and apostles of His Church. Everywhere that Paul went, He went with the covering of churches all over.

Paul was covered by God. He gave the churches the sharp end of his tongue when visiting or writing them.

 

[Strangelove]

This isn't even close to 'assembling'...

We are gathering together in a group. It's assembling.

What do you come here for?

 

[Strangelove]

Re: What is your church like?

Do you think it is wise for a married man to have a female mentor whom you contact with every day? Is your wife aware of this mentor and how frequently you contact with this mentor?

She's old enough to be my mother. Lolz.

My wifes more jealous of Jesus.

 

[Strangelove]

Re: What is your church like?

Have you been baptized?
Also since it was brought up their your wife is Vietnamese and you wrote in another post that you live in SE Asia, I wonder if this topic is not merely about church but about practicality. I mean do you live in Vietnam? If he lives in Vietnam, I think Christianity is illegal there so it may not be a simple thing to just get up and go to church plus finding a really good Bible church that teaches in his language only adds to the problem. If that is the case, I could see how this forum could become his church.

I've been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Christianity isn't illegal here. There are two Catholic churches in my town.

 

[handy]

People keep quoting their impressions of my words and not my ACTUAL words. All I've said is that going to church is not necessary.

My apologies if I gathered an impression that you did not intend.

People also need to be very cautious and test every spirit for truth. If they find apostacy in their church they should leave, obviously. Thats all.

Which is what we did, when our former church voted to ordain homosexual in active relationships.

I'm sure there are still many small churches out there that have very competant pastors who truly minister their flock without trying to have authority over them and keep things Gospel at all times. If you're church is like that then you are blessed.

Some members here say that I am an unbeliever for not attending church. This is false.

Since there are "many small churches out there that have very competant pastors who truly minister their flock without trying to have authority over them and keep things Gospel at all times" you, as a Christian, should be in one of them. Reading through the New Testament, I see a clear call for not neglecting our assembling together and to unity. There most likely will come a time when we will not be able to have corporate worship, but that time is not now, at least here in the States.

No, I don't believe it is a salvation issue...but it's a lot like the whole baptism issue...some try to say that since baptism doesn't save us, then we don't need to do it, even though the Lord tells us to. The Lord also tells us not to neglect our gathering together, so why are we going to say, "well, since it doesn't save me, I'm not gonna"?

The communion thing I've had a look at and that looks like a really nice thing to do. Not a salvation issue or anything but a nice gesture. But I still don't see how you have to be in church to do it or even with other people. Is it ok if I consume bread and wine and remember Christs sacrifice on my own?

No, I don't think it is OK to consume bread and wine on your own. The whole thing about communion is that it is something that Jesus gave to the fellowship to do together, not to individuals. The word "communion" itself is translated from the Greek word "koinonia" which is defined as "fellowship, joint participation, community and association". There is nothing "individual" about either the word, or in the way Christ gave it to us. And, it is far more than a "nice gesture". This isn't a thread about the spiritual impact of communion, but anything that the Lord commands of us "DO THIS" should never be diminished into nothing more than a nice gesture.

Again, the difference between face to face and internet...is the peer pressure. Only avoid you're local church if it's turned rotten. You've done it several times. If everything is hunky dory then I'm all for ppl sticking with their church. Why wouldn't you?

Then why don't you?

I'm gonna get into that a little bit more soon. There are some definate things that people need to be alert for. Very subtle stuff creeping in.

Agreed!

Amen. If you're church preaches sound doctrine and is Gospel only without the social pressures and legalism and the pastor is a servant to the flock then s'all good.
...
I'm sure there are plenty. We're not at complete apostacy yet.

And so you should be in a local church. I don't know how many times you've read through the New Testament, I've done so quite a few times now, and again, I don't see Christians being called to be "the guru on the hill" types but to be actively involved with each other in assembling together, worshiping together, and communing together.

 

[Strangelove]

Since there are "many small churches out there that have very competant pastors who truly minister their flock without trying to have authority over them and keep things Gospel at all times" you, as a Christian, should be in one of them.

I'd love to be in a church like that. But there are none near me. So I'll take second best and fellowship online.

Reading through the New Testament, I see a clear call for not neglecting our assembling together and to unity. There most likely will come a time when we will not be able to have corporate worship, but that time is not now, at least here in the States.

So you dont think that forums is assembling together? What are you doing here?

No, I don't believe it is a salvation issue...but it's a lot like the whole baptism issue...some try to say that since baptism doesn't save us, then we don't need to do it, even though the Lord tells us to. The Lord also tells us not to neglect our gathering together, so why are we going to say, "well, since it doesn't save me, I'm not gonna"?

If we wern't assembling together right now you wouldn't have been able to give me that point of view. But the fact that I took you're point and don't feel pressured into agreeing with it means that I can still do whatever I want....and continue to assemble online.

No, I don't think it is OK to consume bread and wine on your own.

I think it's fine. The ritual represents the fellowship of Christ. When I break my bread I'll think of you Handy. . I think Jesus would understand. It's either this way or roman catholic occultism.

Then why don't you?

Because theres no suitable churches near me. And no-one speaking English inside them to fellowship with anyway.

And so you should be in a local church. I don't know how many times you've read through the New Testament, I've done so quite a few times now, and again, I don't see Christians being called to be "the guru on the hill" types but to be actively involved with each other in assembling together, worshiping together, and communing together.

Ya you said that like....a thousand times already.

What are you doing here exactly if you're not assembling?

 

[Alabaster]

Re: What is your church like?

If he hasn't been in a church then it is very unlikely that he be baptised. That's not really a concern though, since in itself, baptism (water) does nothing.
However, I would be interested to see Strangelove's response to some of my posts, and the reason he doesn't go to church.

BTW, I would like to keep the need and role of baptism out of this discussion please.

Just as a side note, baptism is a command that we are to follow. It is not essential for salvation, but it is a command. those who separate from the Body of Christ in fellowship and ministry are bound to be disobedient in other areas as well. It is an independent spirit that drives them, and God wants them to submit to Him.

 

[handy]

You know, Doc, in this whole conversation, as well as in others with you, I had totally forgotten that you don't live in the States...Asia is it? I so apologize to you for forgetting this.

Naturally, when one is in a position of not being around Christian churches, then yes, it is quite understandable that one cannot assemble together.

Sheesh, do I feel dumb now!

Really, in situations like yours, the Internet is such a blessing. Since I live way out here in the "middle of nowhere, Idaho" there are plenty of times when we truly cannot get to church, and being able to "fellowship" on-line is great, especially since we can only afford going to Sunday worship. I'd love to go to the various bible studies our church has, but truly I can't. I don't believe on-line is a substitute for assembling together within a local church body, because there are things that happen in the local churches, (communion, worship) that don't happen on-line. But, when one is in a position like you are, when one really doesn't have a local church to be a part of...yes, these kinds of on-line fellowships are better than nothing.

 

[Alabaster]

So now God moving amongst His people is dependent on specific locations and /or buildings?

18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The Lord seems to disagree.​

That is a typical rationalizing usage of that particular scripture passage by those who reject the assembly just shows that they do not understand scripture. that passage has nothing to do with the assembly. It has to do with power and authority in prayer.

God wants to plant us in a flourishing place, like springs of water, so that we will send down strong roots and grow straight and tall.

Take a look at this thread's OP:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/why-do-we-need-local-church-32341/#post479300

 

[Alabaster]

When one considers the internet his church, he is not only associating with Christians, but with fringe people of the church who have abandoned the assembly as well, and those who have been removed from churches for their refusal to come under authority and refusal of correction, and also many, many wolves.

It isn't a safe place to receive good spiritual food and fellowship.

 

[Alabaster]

You know, Doc, in this whole conversation, as well as in others with you, I had totally forgotten that you don't live in the States...Asia is it? I so apologize to you for forgetting this.

Naturally, when one is in a position of not being around Christian churches, then yes, it is quite understandable that one cannot assemble together.

Sheesh, do I feel dumb now!

Really, in situations like yours, the Internet is such a blessing. Since I live way out here in the "middle of nowhere, Idaho" there are plenty of times when we truly cannot get to church, and being able to "fellowship" on-line is great, especially since we can only afford going to Sunday worship. I'd love to go to the various bible studies our church has, but truly I can't. I don't believe on-line is a substitute for assembling together within a local church body, because there are things that happen in the local churches, (communion, worship) that don't happen on-line. But, when one is in a position like you are, when one really doesn't have a local church to be a part of...yes, these kinds of on-line fellowships are better than nothing.

Don't fall for the line that in Asia there are no good churches. There are, and God knows where they are, and He can be trusted to lead a person there. He leads Christians in every nation to great places for fellowship---physically---even in China. The persecuted and illegal Church of Jesus Christ still finds a way to obey God there, in spite of the terrible threat of trouble and death.

SL is determined to NOT comply with God in this. His many reasons or excuses do not include his geographical location...at least in this particular thread.

 

[jasoncran]

doc the catholic church while i dont like them in all that they do would be a good place to start.

 

[handy]

Don't fall for the line that in Asia there are no good churches. There are, and God knows where they are, and He can be trusted to lead a person there. He leads Christians in every nation to great places for fellowship---physically---even in China. The persecuted and illegal Church of Jesus Christ still finds a way to obey God there, in spite of the terrible threat of trouble and death.

SL is determined to NOT comply with God in this. His many reasons or excuses do not include his geographical location...at least in this particular thread.

Asia is a whole continent and I'm sure even Doc agrees that there are good churches all around Asia...but Doc has stated that there are none except the RCC where he is at, and, as I don't know where he is at, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Even here in Idaho, there are places where there aren't any good churches. There certainly are not any where we live, we have to drive quite a ways to get to church. Our options are to stay at our in-law's house down in town on Saturday, or, do as we are doing this weekend and get up at 6:00 in order to be able to make it to church by 9:00.

As for going to the RCC, if I had no other option, even though I disagree with the RCC on many important points, I'd go there before eschewing assembling altogether. I wouldn't be able to commune with them, but I could at least join in corporate worship. The RCC does worship the Christian God after all. But, I know that there are others who are so convicted by certain of the RCC doctrines, they'd rather go to a synagogue than and RCC. To me, this is something that is between God and the individual. For, although I would go to an RCC if there were no other options...I would NOT go to an ELCA. Not any more. I would opt for fellowshipping on-line before going to an ELCA (our former church which now ordains gays and lesbians in relationships).

It [the Internet] isn't a safe place to receive good spiritual food and fellowship.

I do agree with this! You're right, there are too many on the fringe and too many who are wolves. One of the benefits of the local assembly, those folks that you sit down with face to face, is accountability to good doctrine and the ability to identify and correct errors.

Doc, let me ask this: Have you searched out other believers where you live with the intention of at least creating a house church? I know when I was in Ireland, (which has big church buildings all over the place) there were very few actual Christians...those who truly believed in God often joined together in each others homes for fellowship and true worship.

 

[jasoncran]

if hes in thailand and a tourist spot at that,one would assume that there would be a church there.

i'm guessing bancock the capital of thailand. but i may be off. way off.

 

[Chris]

I was thinking about this today at church If you dont fellowship with other believers you might start to think you are wise in your own eyes. Talking to others in person can be a humbling experience particularly when you meet wise older godly people.