Bible Study Is Death A Sin? - Yes!

[Nintentacle]

I think you worded the title wrong. I thought you were talking about dying (Giving up the Ghost).

 

[Nintentacle]

Maybe, maybe not.

I don't recall if he was a theif or not, but he went to paradise with Jesus.

"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

I think the pertinent question here is God said the day you eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you WILL die,...what died?

...was God lying , did God lie?

Man is made in the image of God, he is a soul-spirit that lives inside of a physical body, Adam lived 930 years after he rebelled-sinned, so it wasn't his body that died, he was afraid and ashamed because he was naked when he heard the voice of God calling him, those are emotions, so his soul (the seat of our emotions) wasn't dead, ........what's left?

And that raises the next question, what was Jesus referring to in man (us, you and me) that needed to be born again and why?

Blessings

I would assume the "death" God was talking about to Adam was a spiritual thing. The "Born again" is 100% a spiritual thing.

1 Corinthians 15:46 says "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.". So, that means the natural birth is first, and the spiritual birth is after that.

 

[Karl]

Spirit issues are difficult to work through. I still don't believe that Adam's spirit died that day. There are things about the spirit and about the Holy Spirit that I don't understand, and I think that none of us understand. Somehow, we have the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit. How does that happen? I believe that if we can have the Holy Spirit, then Adam would also have had the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't die, He is God. I don't understand HOW the Holy Spirit can be God, but I am accepting that on faith.

I don't agree that God was not in communion with Adam after the fall. The Bible records that God spoke with Adam. There is more to this than just that God turned away from Adam. God didn't. I mentioned the sacrifice for Adam's sin before and you guys thought it was funny, but consider it more carefully. I believe the reason that Adam didn't die that day was because God provided a substitute for him. The Bible is full of stories like this, the innocent animal that was killed as a substitute for Adam and Eve, the animal that God provided as a substitute for Isaac, the animal that Able sacrificed and the reason Cain's sacrifice of plants was not acceptable to God, the scapegoat in Moses' time, right up to the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. The sacrifice of the innocent as a substitute for the sinner.

Timothy, you have just confirmed what I've been saying, Adam received info from God through his sense of hearing, his body and not his spirit, I don't know about you, but I have never heard Him speak audibly to me, it's always in my spirit, that's the new Covenant,

"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord; I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," Heb 10:16

I receive info from Him in my mind on a daily basis, whether it is a verse to combat temptation, or to explain Scripture, tying the verses together, to giving me the plans and necessary jigs to build the furniture my boss shows me from some magazine, to what tool I need to take to work for the maintenance of the apartments I also take care of, ...and through my heart, my emotions, He communicates His emotions, I feel what He s feeling in certain situations, compassion for the needy and the hungry, a helping hand for the children that bring their bikes to my workshop to be repaired, intense sorrow when someone I know has died without receiving Christ as their Savior, to joy when I meet one of His chosen people and immense joy, peace and family ties when I meet a true believer, ...it's constant moment by moment communion with Him, except when I sin and then the communication is broken until I confess and repent, and believe me, I know immediately when the communion is broken, ...for 37 years I lived acting on the info that I received through my five senses, was a lost sinner, but since then, like Paul said, I have no confidence in my flesh, my life is guided by the Holy Spirit speaking to my spirit. .

 

[for_his_glory]

Think deeper. You think that I'm wrong because you have a different belief than I do. You ASSUME that I am wrong. Yes, Cain didn't offer his sacrifice in faith. You are right about that. It was ALSO the wrong sacrifice, because Cain didn't understand that the wages of sin is death. He didn't realize the seriousness of sin.

I'm getting nowhere in this discussion. Believe that Adam died that day if y'all want to. Whatever. Just know that the BIBLE doesn't say that Adam died that day. Not that it matters to anyone what the BIBLE has to say.

Tim, no one said Adam physically died that day. What died that day in Adam was the Spiritual connection/fellowship/worship he had with God because of his disobedience that now separated him from the Father. Romans 5:19 For as by one man's (Adams) disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one (Jesus) shall many be made righteous. Adam lost that righteous part of him that day that connected him with God. Forgiveness is what brought him back to Gods righteousness through the grace of God.

Jesus was teaching Nicodemus that it was a Spiritual rebirth or renewal of our spirit that through Gods spoken word we can reconcile our past sins through repentance to be made sinless again before God. We are all born with a sin nature because of sin being introduced into the world through Satan’s deceit when he told Eve it was alright to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil even though God forbid them to eat of it. Our flesh will always sin because the flesh is never in obedience to God.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit). We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[Chopper]

Think deeper. You think that I'm wrong because you have a different belief than I do. You ASSUME that I am wrong. Yes, Cain didn't offer his sacrifice in faith. You are right about that. It was ALSO the wrong sacrifice, because Cain didn't understand that the wages of sin is death. He didn't realize the seriousness of sin.

I'm getting nowhere in this discussion. Believe that Adam died that day if y'all want to. Whatever. Just know that the BIBLE doesn't say that Adam died that day. Not that it matters to anyone what the BIBLE has to say.

I apologize Tim, I have followed this thread some, but I must have missed what you said about Adam not dying. Could you please tell me your thoughts or direct me to a post number. As you know, I highly praise the way that you believe solely what the Bible says, and reject man's thoughts. I continue to learn from your instructions.

 

[Edward]

Think deeper. You think that I'm wrong because you have a different belief than I do. You ASSUME that I am wrong. Yes, Cain didn't offer his sacrifice in faith. You are right about that. It was ALSO the wrong sacrifice, because Cain didn't understand that the wages of sin is death. He didn't realize the seriousness of sin.

I'm getting nowhere in this discussion. Believe that Adam died that day if y'all want to. Whatever. Just know that the BIBLE doesn't say that Adam died that day. Not that it matters to anyone what the BIBLE has to say.

So don't you think that there's anything about the spiritual realm, that perhaps we just don't understand? That maybe there's some spiritual factors at play that are largely unseen in reality? Some sort of spiritual death that may be, to us, (who live in the natural world), don't really quite understand the mechanics of it and the "spiritual" aspects and significance...?

Perhaps, this is a part of the instruction that we have been given in scripture, to...live for the Spirit. He wants us to strive to live for and to understand that spiritual nature of reality.

 

[Edward]

Thinking about it, even physical death is not really death to God, only man. It's merely sleep to God. He can come along and raise up from death anyone He wants to at anytime. So the thought of some sort of spiritual death isn't really all that far fetched in that light. We just don't get it yet because we have been (indoctrinated) to believe that the natural world and it's laws of physics and life & death and all that, is all there is, that there is no unseen spiritual realm, yet we are instructed to seek it out and live for it. Because! We are not human beings on a spiritual journey...we are spiritual beings on a human journey. Created in Gods image (spiritual being), and fell from that position of being, and relationship to be largely...without identity.

Does that make sense?

 

[Edward]

I just thought of something...When Jesus was going to raise Lazarus from the grave, he was telling the people that he merely sleepeth...to which they essentially began arguing with Him and so forth because (Hey man, can't you see that he is DEAD?)...then Jesus wept...I used to think that Jesus wept then because of either Lazarus, or that in response to the suffering and mourning that the people had to Lazarus's death...

Maybe not! Maybe Jesus was weeping because...he couldn't make the people understand, they just wouldn't get it. Here in front of them was GOD Himself, and they had already seen many miracles, and still the hardness of their hearts would not let them believe...that must have been frustrating for Jesus. So he wept.

 

[TimothyW]

Timothy, you have just confirmed what I've been saying, Adam received info from God through his sense of hearing, his body and not his spirit, I don't know about you, but I have never heard Him speak audibly to me, it's always in my spirit, that's the new Covenant,

"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord; I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," Heb 10:16

I receive info from Him in my mind on a daily basis, whether it is a verse to combat temptation, or to explain Scripture, tying the verses together, to giving me the plans and necessary jigs to build the furniture my boss shows me from some magazine, to what tool I need to take to work for the maintenance of the apartments I also take care of, ...and through my heart, my emotions, He communicates His emotions, I feel what He s feeling in certain situations, compassion for the needy and the hungry, a helping hand for the children that bring their bikes to my workshop to be repaired, intense sorrow when someone I know has died without receiving Christ as their Savior, to joy when I meet one of His chosen people and immense joy, peace and family ties when I meet a true believer, ...it's constant moment by moment communion with Him, except when I sin and then the communication is broken until I confess and repent, and believe me, I know immediately when the communion is broken, ...for 37 years I lived acting on the info that I received through my five senses, was a lost sinner, but since then, like Paul said, I have no confidence in my flesh, my life is guided by the Holy Spirit speaking to my spirit. .

So you see that if God walked and talked with Adam after the fall, Adam could not have died the day that he ate the fruit, not physically OR so called spiritually. If Adam "spiritually died" that day, as you guys claim, then he also could not have talked with God. The solution is simple. Adam didn't die that day. He died much later, when he was 930 years old, as the Bible records in Genesis 5:5. This IS what the Bible Says. The Bible records WHEN Adam died, and it WASN'T the day he ate the fruit.

 

[TimothyW]

I apologize Tim, I have followed this thread some, but I must have missed what you said about Adam not dying. Could you please tell me your thoughts or direct me to a post number. As you know, I highly praise the way that you believe solely what the Bible says, and reject man's thoughts. I continue to learn from your instructions.

Karl and I have been going back and forth with each other for pages and pages. Karl claims that Adam "spiritually died" on the day he (Adam) ate the fruit with Eve. Karl maintains that Adam didn't "physically die" that day, but he "spiritually died" that day. I have been pointing out that the Bible doesn't say this. I believe that Adam did not die on the day he ate the fruit, his only death is recorded in Genesis 5:5. I do not believe in what people are calling "spiritual death".

 

[Edward]

So you see that if God walked and talked with Adam after the fall, Adam could not have died the day that he ate the fruit, not physically OR so called spiritually. If Adam "spiritually died" that day, as you guys claim, then he also could not have talked with God. The solution is simple. Adam didn't die that day. He died much later, when he was 930 years old, as the Bible records in Genesis 5:5. This IS what the Bible Says. The Bible records WHEN Adam died, and it WASN'T the day he ate the fruit.

Adam didn't have his friend anymore because he insulted him by disobeying Him. So God stopped coming over to visit, walking and talking with him in the Garden in the cool of the evening. and all the benefits that go along with having that kind of friend. He didn't get to be in in His presence anymore. With all due respect brother, I do believe that you're over-simplifying this just a wee bit. Disobeying God had profound effects upon Adams life.

 

[TimothyW]

Adam didn't have his friend anymore because he insulted him by disobeying Him. So God stopped coming over to visit, walking and talking with him in the Garden in the cool of the evening. and all the benefits that go along with having that kind of friend. He didn't get to be in in His presence anymore. With all due respect brother, I do believe that you're over-simplifying this just a wee bit. Disobeying God had profound effects upon Adams life.

I agree, but what I am saying is quite simple. Adam didn't die the day that he ate the fruit. He died later, according to the Bible.

 

[Chopper]

Karl and I have been going back and forth with each other for pages and pages. Karl claims that Adam "spiritually died" on the day he (Adam) ate the fruit with Eve. Karl maintains that Adam didn't "physically die" that day, but he "spiritually died" that day. I have been pointing out that the Bible doesn't say this. I believe that Adam did not die on the day he ate the fruit, his only death is recorded in Genesis 5:5. I do not believe in what people are calling "spiritual death".

Hi Tim, I posted my view on this subject in post #94. I would like to add a few insights for your consideration. When Adam was created, I am thinking that he was as complete as a human could be. Some say he was perfect. I tend not to believe that because he sinned. Perfect does not sin. I feel he was in a state of innocence before he sinned. Being a complete human, I feel that he had the indwelling Holy Spirit and was generated by Him. When Adam sinned, the only thing bad thing that happened to him was the Holy Spirit ceased generating him and left him. Some call that spiritually dying. I'm not sure what to call it since there is no Scripture to validate it. I think the validity comes with the Word of God in Titus.

Titus 3:5 - 5 says, "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

So at salvation when the work of Adam is abolished thru the forgiveness of original sin, and my sins of my prior life. Thru Salvation I am regenerated by the Holy Spirit Who left Adam when he sinned. The mention of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit would not have been added if in the beginning with Adam the Holy Spirit had stayed inside him as He does with us once we become born again.

 

[TimothyW]

Hi Tim, I posted my view on this subject in post #94. I would like to add a few insights for your consideration. When Adam was created, I am thinking that he was as complete as a human could be. Some say he was perfect. I tend not to believe that because he sinned. Perfect does not sin. I feel he was in a state of innocence before he sinned. Being a complete human, I feel that he had the indwelling Holy Spirit and was generated by Him. When Adam sinned, the only thing bad thing that happened to him was the Holy Spirit ceased generating him and left him. Some call that spiritually dying. I'm not sure what to call it since there is no Scripture to validate it. I think the validity comes with the Word of God in Titus.

Titus 3:5 - 5 says, "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

So at salvation when the work of Adam is abolished thru the forgiveness of original sin, and my sins of my prior life. Thru Salvation I am regenerated by the Holy Spirit Who left Adam when he sinned. The mention of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit would not have been added if in the beginning with Adam the Holy Spirit had stayed inside him as He does with us once we become born again.

I agree with all of that, I think. I think that the Holy Spirit can indwell in people who sin, otherwise salvation would not be possible for us. (So that includes Adam and Eve) Remember the scripture that says "while we were still sinners Christ died for us". I'm too lazy to look that one up right now, but you know the verse I mean. In Romans, I think. (ETA - Romans 5:8)

 

[Edward]

Romans 5:8, I looked it up for you.

I agree, but what I am saying is quite simple. Adam didn't die the day that he ate the fruit. He died later, according to the Bible.

I am convinced that there is more to this death thing than meets the eye (and flesh!). There's a lot more going on this world than meets the eye. It's that spiritual realm. Here's a passage that I happened to read this morning that gives indication of there being more to death than merely the flesh dying...

Colossians 3: 1-3
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God./(KJV)

Now in this Paul is talking to the Colossians, but is applicable to any believer which reads it. When we are risen with Christ (saved, perhaps baptized), we die to the flesh (are supposed to anyway). Not to die in a physical flesh sense, but in spirit, the old worldly man and our heart which lusteth after things of the flesh. Even baptism, it is symbolic of the old man dying and being buried, and when we come up out of the water, symbolic of rising up in Christ, a new man.

Do you agree with that brother? If not, what's your take on it?

 

[Edward]

Before the fall, it does make sense that Adam & Eve were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Then the Holy Spirit left and was only indwelling certain spiritual people back in the OT times who were anointed of God to do His work. After Jesus was risen, then the (comforter) Holy Spirit came back to the people on earth, to indwell them and draw them to God.

I can't imagine not being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It's something that none of us have ever felt, having been born after the Comforter came for all.

I bet money that the biggest torment in hell will be the total and complete separation from God and His Spirit. When I read testimonies of people who say they visited the third heaven and so forth, and they all describe the feeling of being in Gods presence, as one of total love and acceptance...the greatest feeling that they have ever felt. To never be able to feel this, even in the slightest...would be torment for sure.
Being able to live in Gods presence, and to feel this love constantly when we go to heaven...is really the real reward that we will get from being saved. It's going to be awesome!

Praise the Lord!

 

[Chopper]

Before the fall, it does make sense that Adam & Eve were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Then the Holy Spirit left and was only indwelling certain spiritual people back in the OT times who were anointed of God to do His work. After Jesus was risen, then the (comforter) Holy Spirit came back to the people on earth, to indwell them and draw them to God.

I can't imagine not being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It's something that none of us have ever felt, having been born after the Comforter came for all.

I bet money that the biggest torment in hell will be the total and complete separation from God and His Spirit. When I read testimonies of people who say they visited the third heaven and so forth, and they all describe the feeling of being in Gods presence, as one of total love and acceptance...the greatest feeling that they have ever felt. To never be able to feel this, even in the slightest...would be torment for sure.
Being able to live in Gods presence, and to feel this love constantly when we go to heaven...is really the real reward that we will get from being saved. It's going to be awesome!

Praise the Lord!

I agree with most of your post Edward, except O.T. folk being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit Came on them for particular jobs to be done, not indwelt until Salvation came to man.

 

[Chopper]

I agree with all of that, I think. I think that the Holy Spirit can indwell in people who sin, otherwise salvation would not be possible for us. (So that includes Adam and Eve) Remember the scripture that says "while we were still sinners Christ died for us". I'm too lazy to look that one up right now, but you know the verse I mean. In Romans, I think. (ETA - Romans 5:8)

Wellllllll, The Holy Spirit can dwell in sinners who are saved by Grace. True believers still sin according to 1st John. I do not believe that sinners before Salvation are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Again, the Holy Spirit comes on folk that the Father is drawing to Christ. Spirit only indwells Spiritual. Born again is spiritual.

 

[TimothyW]

Wellllllll, The Holy Spirit can dwell in sinners who are saved by Grace. True believers still sin according to 1st John. I do not believe that sinners before Salvation are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Again, the Holy Spirit comes on folk that the Father is drawing to Christ. Spirit only indwells Spiritual. Born again is spiritual.

I agree. I believe that Adam and Eve are saved by faith in God, just as we are. I don't know how that works for OT Saints, but I believe that they are saved by faith in Jesus Christ based on God's Promise, the same as us. By God's grace, through faith. We are not given eternal life through something called "spiritual death". The term "spiritual death" is not found in the Bible. But "By grace you have been saved through faith" is found in the Bible. Adam was a sinner saved by Grace, the same as all of the rest of us. He didn't die the day that he sinned, but as God said, "dying you will die". Adam died when he was 930 years old, just as God said that he would, if he sinned. But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (and Adam's Lord). Adam will be resurrected and will have eternal life, I'm sure that God would not leave Adam and Eve in the grave.

 

[Chopper]

I agree. I believe that Adam and Eve are saved by faith in God, just as we are. I don't know how that works for OT Saints, but I believe that they are saved by faith in Jesus Christ based on God's Promise, the same as us. By God's grace, through faith. We are not given eternal life through something called "spiritual death". The term "spiritual death" is not found in the Bible. But "By grace you have been saved through faith" is found in the Bible. Adam was a sinner saved by Grace, the same as all of the rest of us. He didn't die the day that he sinned, but as God said, "dying you will die". Adam died when he was 930 years old, just as God said that he would, if he sinned. But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (and Adam's Lord). Adam will be resurrected and will have eternal life, I'm sure that God would not leave Adam and Eve in the grave.

I certainly agree that Adam and, or, Eve did not physically die when they sinned. That to me is a silly belief because they continued on in LIFE to bear children and live a long life. Certainly they were not dead spiritually. For us, God says that He will not leave us and I believe that goes for Adam and Eve because God does not change.