Bible Study Is Death A Sin? - Yes!

[Malachi]

There is better than 98% of the membership of the American Church Universal does not believe in the Holy Spirit's indwelling and one on one instruction. I pray that is not true of any here but I have one, right now trying to shake me loose from my belief in God's Six, actual, day Creation Account th claims the scientific theory of evolution fits the account, it does not, of course.

All one has to do is read 1 John 2:20,27 to know that the indwelling Holy Spirit teaches every believer ALL THINGS, as long as we desire to be taught. Too many Christians do not imitate the Bereans and search the Scriptures daily. Too many Christians prefer to be spoon fed and remain on milk, rather than move on to meat.

As to the fact that God literally created the entire universe in 6 literal 24-hour days, all one has to do is read Exodus 20:11, which being an integral part of the Ten Commandments, is eternally true and eternally sure: "For IN SIX DAYS the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it". Careful students of God's Word will notice that these were 24 hour days, therefore God delineated them with "evening and morning" for each day of creation (Gen 1:5,8,13,19,23,31). The Hebrew day begins at 6:00 p.m.

Coming back to this thread, there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not Adam died on the day that he disobeyed. If we accept the fact that death is one of two things (1) the separation of the soul and spirit from the body and (2) the separation of the sinner from God, then it is quite clear from the Scripture record that Adam and Eve were separated from God on the day that they sinned. Proof? "Therefore the LORD God SENT HIM FORTH from the Garden of Eden... So he DROVE OUT THE MAN..." (Genesis 3:23,24).

Up until the time that Adam disobeyed God, God had fellowship with him in the Garden (Gen. 3:8). Since "the wages of sin is death" Adam experienced spiritual death on the day that he sinned: "Wherefore as by ONE MAN [Adam] sin entered into the world, AND DEATH BY SIN; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12). This means that because of Adam all human beings are born spiritually dead. The body and soul are alive, but the spirit is dead: "And you hath he quickened WHO WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins... Even when we were DEAD IN SINS, hath quickened us together with Christ...(Eph. 2:1,5). Because we are all spiritually dead, we all MUST be born again (John 3: 3-8).

 

[th1b.taylor]

All one has to do is read 1 John 2:20,27 to know that the indwelling Holy Spirit teaches every believer ALL THINGS, as long as we desire to be taught. Too many Christians do not imitate the Bereans and search the Scriptures daily. Too many Christians prefer to be spoon fed and remain on milk, rather than move on to meat.

As to the fact that God literally created the entire universe in 6 literal 24-hour days, all one has to do is read Exodus 20:11, which being an integral part of the Ten Commandments, is eternally true and eternally sure: "For IN SIX DAYS the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it". Careful students of God's Word will notice that these were 24 hour days, therefore God delineated them with "evening and morning" for each day of creation (Gen 1:5,8,13,19,23,31). The Hebrew day begins at 6:00 p.m.

Coming back to this thread, there's been a lot of discussion about whether or not Adam died on the day that he disobeyed. If we accept the fact that death is one of two things (1) the separation of the soul and spirit from the body and (2) the separation of the sinner from God, then it is quite clear from the Scripture record that Adam and Eve were separated from God on the day that they sinned. Proof? "Therefore the LORD God SENT HIM FORTH from the Garden of Eden... So he DROVE OUT THE MAN..." (Genesis 3:23,24).

Up until the time that Adam disobeyed God, God had fellowship with him in the Garden (Gen. 3:8). Since "the wages of sin is death" Adam experienced spiritual death on the day that he sinned: "Wherefore as by ONE MAN [Adam] sin entered into the world, AND DEATH BY SIN; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12). This means that because of Adam all human beings are born spiritually dead. The body and soul are alive, but the spirit is dead: "And you hath he quickened WHO WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins... Even when we were DEAD IN SINS, hath quickened us together with Christ...(Eph. 2:1,5). Because we are all spiritually dead, we all MUST be born again (John 3: 3-8).

Thank you Malachi and may God pour His riches upon you and yours.

 

[TimothyW]

Timothy, I/we have been telling you and we are not guessing, this fact is interwoven through the whole of Scripture and it has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit 1 Jn 2:27, may I humbly suggest, as your brother, Pro 25:2,

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.

Please, don't guess, ask the Lord, like you have asked Him to explain other Scripture, what died the day Adam rebelled?

Blessings

Okay, I did that. What died the day that Adam rebelled?
Here is the answer from the Word of God, the Scriptures.
Genesis 3:21
And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

The animal that the LORD God sacrificed in order to cloth Adam and Eve died the day that Adam rebelled. Even then the wages of sin was death.
Have you heard of the term "Substitutionary Atonement"? In the old testament, the sacrifices of animals were a vivid picture of the sacrifice that God himself would perform for us, sending his own son to die in our place on the cross, instead of us. As a Substitute for us. Paying the debt of death that WE OWE. (Which He didn't owe)

Thank you for asking me what died on the day that Adam rebelled. The lamb of God died that day to cover Adam and Eve's sin (and graphically, their nakedness)
The Lamb of God died for us on Calvary to cover our sins.

 

[Malachi]

The Lamb of God died for us on Calvary to cover our sins.

"To TAKE AWAY our sins" would be a better way to put it. Up until Calvary the sins of God's people were "covered" by the blood of the animals sacrificed. But at Calvary, they were "taken away" to be remembered no more, because the Lamb of God suffered the wrath of God against sin in His own body and in His own holy soul (John 1:29; Isaiah 53:1-12).

But since the Lamb of God was "foreordained before the foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:20) God saw His Son as already crucified before He created Adam! God also knew that Adam would sin before he was created out of dust. Therefore God's provision for man was the sacrifice of innocent animals to confirm and establish that our faith must be in the coming Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world (John 1:29).

This lesson was taught to Adam and Eve through the coats of skins (symbolizing imputed righteousness) as well as Cain and Abel. But only Abel is mentioned as the one who exercised faith in the Lamb of God (Hebrews 11:4): "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain by which he obtained witness THAT HE WAS RIGHTEOUS, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh". It is interesting to note that Adam is not mentioned in Hebrew chapter 11.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Okay, I did that. What died the day that Adam rebelled?
Here is the answer from the Word of God, the Scriptures.
Genesis 3:21
And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

The animal that the LORD God sacrificed in order to cloth Adam and Eve died the day that Adam rebelled. Even then the wages of sin was death.
Have you heard of the term "Substitutionary Atonement"? In the old testament, the sacrifices of animals were a vivid picture of the sacrifice that God himself would perform for us, sending his own son to die in our place on the cross, instead of us. As a Substitute for us. Paying the debt of death that WE OWE. (Which He didn't owe)

Thank you for asking me what died on the day that Adam rebelled. The lamb of God died that day to cover Adam and Eve's sin (and graphically, their nakedness)
The Lamb of God died for us on Calvary to cover our sins.

Tim,
I hope you have a good life but I tire of the childish behavior. Repeatedly, several of us have given you the spiritual references and you are either not reading them, are quenching the Spirit or you do not believe the basic truth of Hermeneutics that no scripture, group of scripture nor collection of scripture can be fully and correctly without the light of all scripture shining on it/them. Praying for you.

 

[Karl]

Okay, I did that. What died the day that Adam rebelled?
Here is the answer from the Word of God, the Scriptures.
Genesis 3:21
And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

The animal that the LORD God sacrificed in order to cloth Adam and Eve died the day that Adam rebelled. Even then the wages of sin was death.

That's good Timothy, you get an A for effort, but now you have to explain how the animal sinned (with Scripture), ...reminds me of the time I was punished for leaning back in my chair at school, teach told me to write on the chalkboard, "I will not lean back in my chair one hundred times," so that is what I wrote and returned to my place, the class cracked up, but teach blew a fuse and I was sent to the Principle, he called my dad at work and explained the situation, dad asked him what I had done wrong??? but when I got home........,

Okay Timothy, I enjoyed your sense of humor, but here is the question again,

...what died IN Adam the day HE rebelled?

Obviously the animal (lamb) was not inside of Adam because they were herbivorous, man didn't become carnivorous until after the Flood and Adam died before the Flood.

And the second question is the similar to the first,

What is dead IN you and me that we need to be born again?

Thanks for the laugh, bro

Blessings

 

[TimothyW]

Tim,
I hope you have a good life but I tire of the childish behavior. Repeatedly, several of us have given you the spiritual references and you are either not reading them, are quenching the Spirit or you do not believe the basic truth of Hermeneutics that no scripture, group of scripture nor collection of scripture can be fully and correctly without the light of all scripture shining on it/them. Praying for you.

I think that you misunderstand me. Childish behavior? Please stop with the personal insults, okay? There is no reason for you to be unpleasant in this discussion.

 

[TimothyW]

That's good Timothy, you get an A for effort, but now you have to explain how the animal sinned (with Scripture), ...reminds me of the time I was punished for leaning back in my chair at school, teach told me to write on the chalkboard, "I will not lean back in my chair one hundred times," so that is what I wrote and returned to my place, the class cracked up, but teach blew a fuse and I was sent to the Principle, he called my dad at work and explained the situation, dad asked him what I had done wrong??? but when I got home........,

Okay Timothy, I enjoyed your sense of humor, but here is the question again,

...what died IN Adam the day HE rebelled?

Obviously the animal (lamb) was not inside of Adam because they were herbivorous, man didn't become carnivorous until after the Flood and Adam died before the Flood.

And the second question is the similar to the first,

What is dead IN you and me that we need to be born again?

Thanks for the laugh, bro

Blessings

Excuse me, but you asked what died the day that Adam sinned, and I read the Bible account and the only thing I could find that died that day was the animal or animals that were sacrificed. If you see something in the account in Genesis that I do not see, please point it out. The Bible doesn't say that anything died in Adam that day, as far as I can see. But I will accept whatever you say died in Adam, as long as you support it with scripture. (The scripture must say something like "Adam's heart died the day that he sinned" or something like that. It won't do to say "the Bible says that the walls of Jericho fell down so that proves that Adam died that day.")

 

[Karl]

Timothy, bro, you didn't answer the original question and the response you want me to give you can only be given to you by the Holy Spirit, you are asking me to teach you and that is the work of the Holy Spirit 1 Jn 2:27, all I, or we, can do is point you to the Scripture that the Holy Spirit has taught us, ...He is the one that has to connect the dots, so to speak.

The Book of Genesis talks to us about the beginnings of many subjects which are expounded later throughout the Word, that is why the Lord didn't tell us in the Genesis account what died in Adam, but He has told us in numerous other texts what died in Adam the day he rebelled, i.e. the book of Romans is a good starting point

There is nothing else I can do for you bro, it's up to you to ask the Lord to reveal to you what died in Adam the day he rebelled, ...I've given you many hints to the answer you are looking for in asking you what is dead in us that needs to be born again?

Blessings

 

[TimothyW]

Timothy, bro, you didn't answer the original question and the response you want me to give you can only be given to you by the Holy Spirit, you are asking me to teach you and that is the work of the Holy Spirit 1 Jn 2:27, all I, or we, can do is point you to the Scripture that the Holy Spirit has taught us, ...He is the one that has to connect the dots, so to speak.

The Book of Genesis talks to us about the beginnings of many subjects which are expounded later throughout the Word, that is why the Lord didn't tell us in the Genesis account what died in Adam, but He has told us in numerous other texts what died in Adam the day he rebelled, i.e. the book of Romans is a good starting point

There is nothing else I can do for you bro, it's up to you to ask the Lord to reveal to you what died in Adam the day he rebelled, ...I've given you many hints to the answer you are looking for in asking you what is dead in us that needs to be born again?

Blessings

A person can not be born again if they have died. Only a living person can repent of their sins and turn to God for forgiveness. The question "What died in us that needs to be born again?" is not a logical question, nor is a Biblical question. A person does not have to be dead in order to be born again, and being dead would actually prevent a person from being born again.

I asked you many times, and very politely too, to show me where the Bible says that Adam died on the day of his sin, and you haven't done that. I think it is time for all of us to admit that Adam did not die that day, he died later, when he was 930 years old.

But if you are sure that something died in Adam that day, simply show me the scripture support for this and I will believe you. Please forgive my skepticism on this, I insist on having answers from the Bible. Anybody can claim Anything, but the grass withers and the flowers fade. Only the Word of our God will stand forever.

 

[Karl]

Timothy, thank you for your politeness in this discussion, I appreciate it and I respect you as a mature man for it.

I don't have any problem with your skepticism, no need to apologize, in fact I'm probably more skeptical than you so I understand where you are coming from.

Like I said, the book of Genesis is about the beginnings, that is the meaning of the word Genesis, in this book we find the beginning of the topics of creation, man, the enemy, sin, salvation, sacrifice, redemption, judgement, the rapture, faith, Israel just to list a few. Now imagine, if God were to put all of the information about these subjects in one book then all the enemy of our souls would have to do is somehow destroy that book and man would be without God's Word on these subjects. Can you see that?

The Bible is all about information, information so that man can learn about God and live and that's why God scattered this information throughout His Word, if we could/should lose a part of it there other places we can go to learn, kind of like a flashlight, when the batteries are new the light is bright, but as they weaken we still have light, but it's not as bright. We together with this?

So, let's answer your question with Scripture, just maybe not in the way you think. In so doing we need to start at the beginning of the life of Adam to understand later on what happened in his life and we find in Scripture the beginning of Adam was when God said, "Let's make man in Our image and after Our likeness." Gen 1:26

Let's stop here and would you please tell me what you believe is the meaning of in Our Image and after Our likeness.

Karl

 

[Ricko]

If we can agree that death means separation, Isaiah 59:2 might help.

But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you,
So that He will not hear.

 

[TimothyW]

If we can agree that death means separation, Isaiah 59:2 might help.

But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you,
So that He will not hear.

I don't agree that death means separation. I have heard this statement before, but I've never seen adequate proof for the theory that death means separation.

 

[TimothyW]

Timothy, thank you for your politeness in this discussion, I appreciate it and I respect you as a mature man for it.

I don't have any problem with your skepticism, no need to apologize, in fact I'm probably more skeptical than you so I understand where you are coming from.

Like I said, the book of Genesis is about the beginnings, that is the meaning of the word Genesis, in this book we find the beginning of the topics of creation, man, the enemy, sin, salvation, sacrifice, redemption, judgement, the rapture, faith, Israel just to list a few. Now imagine, if God were to put all of the information about these subjects in one book then all the enemy of our souls would have to do is somehow destroy that book and man would be without God's Word on these subjects. Can you see that?

The Bible is all about information, information so that man can learn about God and live and that's why God scattered this information throughout His Word, if we could/should lose a part of it there other places we can go to learn, kind of like a flashlight, when the batteries are new the light is bright, but as they weaken we still have light, but it's not as bright. We together with this?

So, let's answer your question with Scripture, just maybe not in the way you think. In so doing we need to start at the beginning of the life of Adam to understand later on what happened in his life and we find in Scripture the beginning of Adam was when God said, "Let's make man in Our image and after Our likeness." Gen 1:26

Let's stop here and would you please tell me what you believe is the meaning of in Our Image and after Our likeness.

Karl

You ask difficult questions. I'm still wondering what you think died the day that Adam sinned. I will trust you that I will find out if I follow your line of reasoning. (But have you considered the possibility that nothing (except the sacrificial animals) died that day?)

What do I believe is the meaning of "in our image" and "after our likeness"?
That is a difficult question. Do you have a good answer for the meaning of this? I don't think that this could mean that God created us as gods too.
I looked in a commentary for an answer to this, the commentators seem as confused by this statement as I am. I really don't have a good answer. Which brings up a point, I don't have all the answers for everything that is written in the Bible. But if someone tells me that Adam died on a certain day, I am able to look in the Bible to see if it says he really did die that day, and if the Bible doesn't say that Adam died on "sin-day" I can point that out.

Here is what one commentary said, it seems as good an answer as any:

In our image, after our likeness.—The human body is after God’s image only as being the means whereby man attains to dominion: for dominion is God’s attribute, inasmuch as He is sole Lord. Man’s body, therefore, as that of one who rules, is erect, and endowed with speech, that he may give the word of command. The soul is first, in God’s image. This, as suggesting an external likeness, may refer to man’s reason, free-will, self-consciousness, and so on. But it is, secondly, in God’s likeness, which implies something closer and more inward. It refers to man’s moral powers, and especially to his capacity of attaining unto holiness. Now man has lost neither of these two. (Comp.Genesis 9:6; 1Corinthians 11:7; James 3:9.) Both were weakened and defiled by the fall, but were still retained in a greater or less degree. In the man Christ Jesus both were perfect; and fallen man, when new-created in Christ, attains actually to that perfection which was his only potentially at his first creation, and to which Adam never did attain.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ellicott/genesis/1.htm​

 

[Karl]

Stretching ya bro, I just don't want to see you be settled on your lees. LOL

That's good you are willing to go with me, thanks, ...your commentary has a good answer, but there is more to be added to what it says.

God is a triune Being, that means He is three persons in One, the Father, Son (Word) and the Holy Spirit, what we call the Trinity, however we don't find the word Trinity in the Bible, we believe it in faith, ...so man is made in His likeness in that we are/have a spirit, a soul and live inside of a human body, three-in-one just like God, now I know you want proof from the Bible that God is a triune Being, so here it is, ...the words used in the Bible for God are, one god is el, two gods or plural is elah and three is Elohim, which is the word used for God in Gen 1:1, you can find where the other forms are used with a good concordance.

We together on that, you and I have a spirit, and a soul and we live inside of a body, ...correct?

I'm going to get a little technical on you here, ...the literal meaning of the Hebrew word for image could be correctly translated phantom or ghost (look it up in your Strong's, #H5764), but the figurative usage is image, from that we can say in modern English, ...God is a Spirit, that is, He doesn't have a physical body, ...so if we are made in the image of God we are spirit too, ...for the time being, living inside of a human body.

For being made is His likeness or resemblance, that means we have some physical capability that He has, and that is found in His ability to create, God is the Creator, He has created everything that is, and to be a created being and be like Him He has given the ability to man to procreate.

Meditate on that bro, pray it in, ask the Father if it's true, time for work, we'll talk later, and feel free to ask any questions.

Lord bless

 

[Ricko]

I don't agree that death means separation. I have heard this statement before, but I've never seen adequate proof for the theory that death means separation.

What do you believe happens when we die? When our physical body dies, what happens to our spirit and soul? Does it stay with our dead body, or is it separated from it?

 

[TimothyW]

What do you believe happens when we die? When our physical body dies, what happens to our spirit and soul? Does it stay with our dead body, or is it separated from it?

I believe that God resurrects the dead. I believe that when Jesus returns, He will resurrect the dead. Those who have eternal life will then live forever and those who do not have eternal life will not live forever. I'm sorry that doesn't answer your question, but I can't say more than the Bible says. I don't have any special knowledge that isn't written in the Bible. You could investigate the Hebrew term that is translated soul, nepesh. Also check out the Greek term pysche.

 

[TimothyW]

Stretching ya bro, I just don't want to see you be settled on your lees. LOL

That's good you are willing to go with me, thanks, ...your commentary has a good answer, but there is more to be added to what it says.

God is a triune Being, that means He is three persons in One, the Father, Son (Word) and the Holy Spirit, what we call the Trinity, however we don't find the word Trinity in the Bible, we believe it in faith, ...so man is made in His likeness in that we are/have a spirit, a soul and live inside of a human body, three-in-one just like God, now I know you want proof from the Bible that God is a triune Being, so here it is, ...the words used in the Bible for God are, one god is el, two gods or plural is elah and three is Elohim, which is the word used for God in Gen 1:1, you can find where the other forms are used with a good concordance.

We together on that, you and I have a spirit, and a soul and we live inside of a body, ...correct?

I'm going to get a little technical on you here, ...the literal meaning of the Hebrew word for image could be correctly translated phantom or ghost (look it up in your Strong's, #H5764), but the figurative usage is image, from that we can say in modern English, ...God is a Spirit, that is, He doesn't have a physical body, ...so if we are made in the image of God we are spirit too, ...for the time being, living inside of a human body.

For being made is His likeness or resemblance, that means we have some physical capability that He has, and that is found in His ability to create, God is the Creator, He has created everything that is, and to be a created being and be like Him He has given the ability to man to procreate.

Meditate on that bro, pray it in, ask the Father if it's true, time for work, we'll talk later, and feel free to ask any questions.

Lord bless

Strong's 5764 is "uwl", an infant. Must be a typo. Strong's 6754 is "tselem", image or form. I see Strong's has phantom, as you say. But I don't see where Strong's proves that. I don't have a lot of time this morning to dig deeper.

God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't think that proves that man consists of Body, Soul and Spirit, or that man is really a spirit being living inside a human body. If so, why would there be any need for a resurrection?

 

[Karl]

Sorry about the error, I'm as blind as a bat, the enemy has really struck me in the one way he knows he can hurt me, ...can't see to read my Word, left eye is permanently damaged, going to have an operation on the right eye in a couple of weeks, I'm praying for the Lord to guide the surgeons hands and restore my sight in that eye, ...I have to practically put my nose on the screen to see what it says.

I'm not following you on what you said about the word phantom, can you explain it more fully when you have the time?

Bro, if God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a triune Being, ...and He said "Let's make man in our image" (and God doesn't lie), then man is a triune being too, made in His image as spirit, soul and body,...just look in the mirror, there's your proof, we think and can rationalize (do we need to shave this morning), that's because we have a spirit, we have emotions (don't want to go out looking like a scruffy bum, what will people think of me), that's our soul and we have a body (it hurts if we cut ourselves), can't really argue with that now, can we?

You ask the question, what is the need for the Resurrection, and that's a good question, but let's resolve the man made in the image of God and it's implications issue and then we will come back to it, okay?

Lord bless you

 

[TimothyW]

Sorry about the error, I'm as blind as a bat, the enemy has really struck me in the one way he knows he can hurt me, ...can't see to read my Word, left eye is permanently damaged, going to have an operation on the right eye in a couple of weeks, I'm praying for the Lord to guide the surgeons hands and restore my sight in that eye, ...I have to practically put my nose on the screen to see what it says.

I'm not following you on what you said about the word phantom, can you explain it more fully when you have the time?

Bro, if God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a triune Being, ...and He said "Let's make man in our image" (and God doesn't lie), then man is a triune being too, made in His image as spirit, soul and body,...just look in the mirror, there's your proof, we think and can rationalize (do we need to shave this morning), that's because we have a spirit, we have emotions (don't want to go out looking like a scruffy bum, what will people think of me), that's our soul and we have a body (it hurts if we cut ourselves), can't really argue with that now, can we?

You ask the question, what is the need for the Resurrection, and that's a good question, but let's resolve the man made in the image of God and it's implications issue and then we will come back to it, okay?

Lord bless you

I'm sorry about your eyes, I didn't know. I hope your operation goes good.

Just a couple of comments, man CAN be made in God's image without being "triune", and God wouldn't have been lying about man being made in God's image. Maybe it just doesn't mean that. You haven't really proven that "made in God's image" really means "made out of three parts". The Bible doesn't specifically say that. Maybe you are right but if you are, you need to firm up the proof on that.

I didn't see why Strongs said "phantom" for image. It just seemed to be thrown into the definition.

I think the resurrection is an important point. If we live forever as spirits, then we don't need to be resurrected in order to have eternal life.