Bible Study Is Death A Sin? - Yes!

[Themessengeroftruth]

Genesis 2:17 in my Bible says:
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eatd of it you shall surely die.”
and the footnote says "Or when you eat"

It doesn't say that Adam will die that very day. And I know that you want to think otherwise, but this is very different from what the serpent said, who claim that Adam wouldn't die at all. There is a life and death difference between dying someday (as God said "dying - you will die") and never dying (as the serpent said "surely you will not die").

Why don't you ask the Holy Spirit what died in Adam that day? Search the scriptures, as I did, looking for the scripture that says what died in Adam that day. Then post the scripture here, if it exists, that says Adam's Spirit died on the day he ate the fruit. I didn't find ANY scripture that says that Adam died that day. 1 John 2:27 does not say that something died in Adam that day. As you say "no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation". Don't tell me your interpretation of what scripture must mean. Tell me specifically what the scriptures SAY. There isn't any scripture that says that Adam died on the day he ate the fruit. Scripture DOES say that Adam died many years later. That is what I believe.

There is ample evidence in the Bible that Adam did not die the same day that he ate the fruit. The most compelling evidence for me is Genesis 5:5 which tells how old Adam was when he died, and how many years he LIVED. "ALL of the days that Adam lived were 912 years, and he died."

The day a man is born he is dead already less he perceives and understand and be converted and live.

The day Adam ate the fruit all men was dead. The day Jesus died all men live.

All of which where chosen by him. If seem didn't eat the fruit we all would never go down into the pit but since he sinned all flesh goes down to the pit but because Jesus died the spirit won't see fire all they who are his beloved

 

[Edward]

Yes, at the time of Adam light was much faster, light generated by a star or sun travels at the speed of light, which can be measured in time, time is a physical property in that to have time it must have mass, if it is a physical property then it is subject to entropy, hence time today is slower than in the time of Adam...

...

It had to be light had to be faster in order for the light to reach earth right? It did. He did see the stars.

...
If you will look up the word light in Gen 1:3 you will find it is a different word than the word used for light in Gen 1:14, the first is a reference to light the second is a reference to the object that gives off the light, ...this is very easy to understand because we have the proof in our own lives, I can remember vividly the day light (Gen 1:3) shone into my darkened soul to illuminate and reveal to me (and that is the only way the Holy Spirit teaches us, by Divine revelation) that Jesus was God, and I'm sure it was the same for you and every other truly born again child of God, ...it wasn't sun light it was Divine light...

It doesn't surprise me that light defines out a little differently in that verse.

...
Yes God could of supernaturally kept plant life alive for 500 years, but what is the purpose, just to prove those that don't believe in the Creation account are correct? I don't think so, my Bible teaches the devil is the author of confusion.

Uhh, what? Maybe it was incidental? That's not what I said anyway. I said, from the wording in genesis that creation took 6 earth days, not 500 or 1000 years each day, 24 hours,,,the evening and the morning...a reference to our days or 24 hours.

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Sunlight provides energy and heat for plant life, which they use to produce glucose to stay alive, again why would God hold plant life in suspended animation when He didn't do that for the other days of creation, what would be His purpose?...

Come on brother, let's give God some credit here. God is life. Everyone who has ever described a NDE or whatever and said they had been in the presence of God, that life was flowing into them. Creation was underway and life was flowing from the Lord...and you're hung up on if the plants could have lived? That's GOD man. The plants prolly only went without light overnight, like they do. Even if, even if, He was on God time and the day was 1000 years long that the plants had no sun...it could have been to give the plants time to flourish on their own over the earth.

...

Genesis I is not only a account of physical/material creation, but it is also a spiritual account of natural man's condition and how the Father draws man to Jesus Christ for salvation, the spiritual signification of day four of Creation, the sun and the moon, represents our walk as believers, just like the moon does not produce light, it only reflects the light the sun shines on it, so are we to reflect the light the Son shines on us. Matt 5:14 So if it is determined for us to be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ, and a day is 1,000 years I don't think we are going to make it, do you, and if that were true then God is unjust because He said man's years would only be 120 and that changed to 70, ...do you see how many reasons, both physical and spiritual, that a day can't be 1,000 years in the Creation account?
...

There has been talk that the 120 years shall be mans is a reference to jubilees, or mans span of time upon the earth...120 jubilees (every 50 years), so 120 X 50 = 6000 years. Now I do not know if that is a fact...but it sounded like it could be. If it is correct, then that would put us in the last days, eh?

I have no idea what you mean about we're not going to make it, or God is unjust. We may as well not think like that since scripture is true. Anytime I have trouble understanding scripture, it always turns out to be me, and not a contradiction.

...
And yes the earth is old, how old we don't know, Scripture tells us so, Gen 1:2, Is 45:18 and Rev 2:13, but Creation started 6,000 years ago.

That's what I believe too.

 

[Karl]

It had to be light had to be faster in order for the light to reach earth right? It did. He did see the stars.

Yep, the Christian astronomists say the way we know light was faster back then from today is the galaxies appear to be the same size, ...makes sense to me.

Uhh, what? Maybe it was incidental? That's not what I said anyway. I said, from the wording in genesis that creation took 6 earth days, not 500 or 1000 years each day, 24 hours,,,the evening and the morning...a reference to our days or 24 hours.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood you.

Come on brother, let's give God some credit here. God is life. Everyone who has ever described a NDE or whatever and said they had been in the presence of God, that life was flowing into them. Creation was underway and life was flowing from the Lord...and you're hung up on if the plants could have lived? That's GOD man. The plants prolly only went without light overnight, like they do. Even if, even if, He was on God time and the day was 1000 years long that the plants had no sun...it could have been to give the plants time to flourish on their own over the earth.

Personally I don't believe in Near Death Experiences, 1. because Paul said he didn't have the vocabulary to describe his experience, so how can these people describe theirs and 2. it's appointed once for man to die and then judgement, the didn't die, they were alive when they had their experiences, how can that be a death experience if they never died, 3. Scripture tells us what takes place when someone dies, the unsaved are immediately transported by angels to Hell and the saved are immediately with the Lord, there is not any time lag or period of limbo, ...no ghosts, that's superstition.

Our God is a God of order and to have one day in six 1,000 years long is not order, no matter what speculations we might conjure up.

There has been talk that the 120 years shall be mans is a reference to jubilees, or mans span of time upon the earth...120 jubilees (every 50 years), so 120 X 50 = 6000 years. Now I do not know if that is a fact...but it sounded like it could be. If it is correct, then that would put us in the last days, eh?

Could be, interesting thought, ...we know from Scripture we are in the end times because the Time of the Gentiles technically ended in June of '67 when during the six day war General Moshe Dayan liberated not only Jerusalem but also the Temple Mount, but God put the game into overtime, so to speak, when the Israeli government immediately relinquished control back to the Arabs, ...so that you and me and a host of others could be saved.

My reference was to Gen 6:3, after the flood the life time of a man was drastically shortened to 120 years, then in Ps 90:10 it is shortened again to 70 years.

I have no idea what you mean about we're not going to make it, or God is unjust. We may as well not think like that since scripture is true. Anytime I have trouble understanding scripture, it always turns out to be me, and not a contradiction.

It's spiritual analogy, if in our lifetime we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, and a lifetime was 1,000 years (the lifetime of Adam), and then God shortened mans lifetime to 120 and then 70, that would not be just on His part, giving us something we could not complete, ...does that explain it better?

I'm with you, a day on this planet is 24 hours, hasn't changed since man started keeping time, only with the intention of proving the evolutionary lie has man began to think a year on planet earth was 1000 years,

...when did it change, why isn't there any recorded history about the day becoming shorter, what changed in the earth's orbit that it took 360 x 1000 years (360,000 years!) to orbit the sun, how about the purpose of the sun and moon to give seasons, was it the same season for 90,000 years, we could go on and on, ...it just ridiculous folly to even think that.

 

[TimothyW]

The day you eat or when you eat, what's the difference, look at what you are implying, ...Adam was munching on the fruit for 930 years, then he died, ...when did he have his conversation with God, when were the curses pronounced, when was the animal killed for clothing, when were they evicted from the Garden, when were Cain, Abel and Seth and the other hundreds of children born, if he was eating the fruit for 930 years to logically fit in to him dying the day or when he ate of it in his 930th year?

You are mistaken in saying what God said about dying and what the serpent said about dying are not the same,

But of the treeH4480 H6086 of the knowledgeH1847 of goodH2896 and evil,H7451 thou shalt notH3808 eatH398 ofH4480 it: forH3588 in the dayH3117 that thou eatestH398 thereofH4480 thou shalt surely die.H4191 H4191 Gen 2:17

And the serpentH5175 saidH559 untoH413 the woman,H802 Ye shall notH3808 surely die:H4191 H4191 Gen 3:4

Looks like the same thing to me, what do you think, ...so if you are mistaken in your understanding of that, is it possible you are mistaken as to what died in Adam too?

I don't think that I will ever be able to persuade you that Adam didn't die that day.
I've given my evidence:
1. The Bible doesn't say that Adam died that day.
2. The Bible says that Adam died a different day.
3. The Bible doesn't say anything about a "spiritual death".

I know that you will never convince me that Adam died the day that he ate the fruit, since the Bible says that he died a different day and the Bible doesn't say that he died that day.
I don't know how you can look at what God said, and what the serpent said and not see that they are exact opposites. God said Adam and Eve would surely die, the serpent said that they would surely NOT die. I don't know how you can think that I agree with the serpent who said that Adam wouldn't die, when I say that Adam DID die. You are mistaken, but I don't think that you are ready to accept correction.

 

[TimothyW]

The day a man is born he is dead already less he perceives and understand and be converted and live.

The day Adam ate the fruit all men was dead. The day Jesus died all men live.

All of which where chosen by him. If seem didn't eat the fruit we all would never go down into the pit but since he sinned all flesh goes down to the pit but because Jesus died the spirit won't see fire all they who are his beloved

Thanks Messenger of Truth. I just believe what the Bible says, so can I have the scripture verses that say "the day a man is born he is dead already" and "the day Adam ate the fruit all men were dead"? That doesn't seem correct. The day Adam ate the fruit, there were only two humans alive, Adam and Eve, and according to the Bible, Adam died many years later. Adam's death is recorded in Genesis 5:5.

 

[Edward]

I believe the bible does speak about spiritual death. Look here,

Colossians 2:13, Ephesians 2:1-3, Ephesians 5:8, 1 John 5:12, and Ephesians 4:18

It's talking about the spirit brother. Our spirit gets born again, leaving us with the same mind and body. Ephesians 4 talks about their understanding being darkened, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that entered them from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. That could have happened immediately, and apparently it did, they first thing they did was to become self conscious and make themselves aprons... Maybe God likens this condition unto death? I think He does.

 

[Edward]

...



Personally I don't believe in Near Death Experiences, 1. because Paul said he didn't have the vocabulary to describe his experience, so how can these people describe theirs and 2. it's appointed once for man to die and then judgement, the didn't die, they were alive when they had their experiences, how can that be a death experience if they never died, 3. Scripture tells us what takes place when someone dies, the unsaved are immediately transported by angels to Hell and the saved are immediately with the Lord, there is not any time lag or period of limbo, ...no ghosts, that's superstition.

Our God is a God of order and to have one day in six 1,000 years long is not order, no matter what speculations we might conjure up.
...

I dunno, maybe we still don't have the proper vocabulary? Besides, these people didn't die, did they? Maybe that's why they call them near death, experiences.

I'm not into postulating if God is just or not. I just accept it that He is, and if there's any confusion, it's my own and not something that God would have to answer for!

 

[jabhat]

Is Death A Sin? - NO
Punishment for sin is DEATH

 

[TimothyW]

I believe the bible does speak about spiritual death. Look here,

Colossians 2:13, Ephesians 2:1-3, Ephesians 5:8, 1 John 5:12, and Ephesians 4:18

It's talking about the spirit brother. Our spirit gets born again, leaving us with the same mind and body. Ephesians 4 talks about their understanding being darkened, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that entered them from eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. That could have happened immediately, and apparently it did, they first thing they did was to become self conscious and make themselves aprons... Maybe God likens this condition unto death? I think He does.

I believe those verses are talking about actual death. Colossians 2:13 Someone who is dead in their sins is heading towards actual death...Ephesians 2:1-3 Someone who was quickened from death is no longer headed to death, they have been given eternal life,,,Ephesians 5:8 says nothing about death...1 John 5:12, talking about actual eternal life (check the context)...Ephesians 4:18 says nothing about death...

In reality, the Bible never once uses the term "spiritual death". Check it out for yourself.

 

[TimothyW]

Is Death A Sin? - NO
Punishment for sin is DEATH

Exactly.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life.

 

[Edward]

I believe those verses are talking about actual death. Colossians 2:13 Someone who is dead in their sins is heading towards actual death...Ephesians 2:1-3 Someone who was quickened from death is no longer headed to death, they have been given eternal life,,,Ephesians 5:8 says nothing about death...1 John 5:12, talking about actual eternal life (check the context)...Ephesians 4:18 says nothing about death...

In reality, the Bible never once uses the term "spiritual death". Check it out for yourself.

So do you conclude that scripture is wrong where it says that in that day ye shall surely die? How do you reconcile that scripture?

 

[TimothyW]

So do you conclude that scripture is wrong where it says that in that day ye shall surely die? How do you reconcile that scripture?

By understanding that Genesis wasn't written in English. Translators say that mut ta muth should be translated as "dying, you will die". This perfectly describes Adam becoming mortal that day. This is also my belief.

 

[Edward]

By understanding that Genesis wasn't written in English. Translators say that mut ta muth should be translated as "dying, you will die". This perfectly describes Adam becoming mortal that day. This is also my belief.

Aha. I see. That's plausible. I'm'a gonna have to ponder that one, lol...
Thanks brother.

 

[Karl]

I don't think that I will ever be able to persuade you that Adam didn't die that day.
I've given my evidence:
1. The Bible doesn't say that Adam died that day.
2. The Bible says that Adam died a different day.
3. The Bible doesn't say anything about a "spiritual death".

I know that you will never convince me that Adam died the day that he ate the fruit, since the Bible says that he died a different day and the Bible doesn't say that he died that day.
I don't know how you can look at what God said, and what the serpent said and not see that they are exact opposites. God said Adam and Eve would surely die, the serpent said that they would surely NOT die. I don't know how you can think that I agree with the serpent who said that Adam wouldn't die, when I say that Adam DID die. You are mistaken, but I don't think that you are ready to accept correction.

So then, is it safe to say you don't believe in the Trinity, because the word Trinity is not found in the Bible?

And you don't believe in the Rapture because the word Rapture is not found in our English Bibles?

 

[TimothyW]

So then, is it safe to say you don't believe in the Trinity, because the word Trinity is not found in the Bible?

And you don't believe in the Rapture because the word Rapture is not found in our English Bibles?

No.


There is evidence that Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God, hence the trinity. This is completely different from so called "spirit death" which HAS no evidence in the Bible. Do you understand the difference? The Rapture is a whole 'nother can of worms. I believe that Jesus Christ is returning and He will resurrect the dead and those of us who are alive will be caught up with Him. Is this what you mean by the "Rapture"? Or are you referring to something like the "Left Behind" novels?

IF your reason for believing in "spirit death" is because it is NOT written in the Bible, just like "Trinity" is NOT written in the Bible, then you have to believe in a lot of things that are NOT written in the Bible. Leprechauns, Mermaids, Hobbits, and the Keebler Elves. Don't tell me that you don't believe in these things because there is no evidence for them in the Bible. If you don't believe in them, then is it safe to say that you don't believe in the Trinity because the word Trinity is not found in the Bible?

Let's get this straight, right now. I believe that the Bible is true, and I believe what there is Biblical EVIDENCE for. That leaves "spirit death" out.

 

[Karl]

No.


There is evidence that Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God, hence the trinity. This is completely different from so called "spirit death" which HAS no evidence in the Bible. Do you understand the difference? The Rapture is a whole 'nother can of worms. I believe that Jesus Christ is returning and He will resurrect the dead and those of us who are alive will be caught up with Him. Is this what you mean by the "Rapture"? Or are you referring to something like the "Left Behind" novels?

IF your reason for believing in "spirit death" is because it is NOT written in the Bible, just like "Trinity" is NOT written in the Bible, then you have to believe in a lot of things that are NOT written in the Bible. Leprechauns, Mermaids, Hobbits, and the Keebler Elves. Don't tell me that you don't believe in these things because there is no evidence for them in the Bible. If you don't believe in them, then is it safe to say that you don't believe in the Trinity because the word Trinity is not found in the Bible?

Let's get this straight, right now. I believe that the Bible is true, and I believe what there is Biblical EVIDENCE for. That leaves "spirit death" out.

So you CAN cherry pick different verses and come to a logical conclusion there is a Trinity, but you CAN NOT cherry pick using THE preponderance of Scriptural evidence to prove the spiritual death in unregenerated man, ...no I don't see the difference!

And you CAN cherry pick different verses and come to a logical conclusion that Jesus is coming back for His Church, but you CAN NOT cherry pick using THE preponderance of Scriptural evidence to prove the spiritual death in unregenerated man, ...no I don't see the difference!

Just so there isn't any confusion, ...no, I don't see any difference.

I believe the Holy Spirit teaches me all things and that the spiritual things of the Bible are indiscernible without Him teaching them to me, the Old Testament is material and physical, the New Testament is spiritual and eternal, for all of the doctrines of the New Testament there is an Old Testament illustration of them, ...that is how and what the Holy Spirit teaches/reveals to me, comparing spiritual illustrations in the Old Testament with spiritual doctrine in the New Testament, ...so yes, I too believe the Bible is TRUE, and the Holy Spirit has revealed to me many hidden nuggets of Truth in the both the Old and New Testaments, ...like Paul said,

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co 2:12, 13

Incidentally, also please notice in these verses there is more cherry picked proof there is a difference between the spirit of the world and the spirit of God, ...so just when do we need to differentiate between the two and why?

Like I said, I have found there is a preponderance of proof throughout the Word man is conceived in sin and thus born spiritually dead, ...if I allow the Holy Spirit to reveal it to me.

If you don't want to believe it then I can't say anything to convince you, ...that has to come from the Holy Spirit.

 

[TimothyW]

Karl, you are being offensive.

 

[Edward]

Forgive me brothers, but you both are sort of going over the top. With all due respect, you too brother Tim...

IF your reason for believing in "spirit death" is because it is NOT written in the Bible, just like "Trinity" is NOT written in the Bible, then you have to believe in a lot of things that are NOT written in the Bible. Leprechauns, Mermaids, Hobbits, and the Keebler Elves. Don't tell me that you don't believe in these things because there is no evidence for them in the Bible. If you don't believe in them, then is it safe to say that you don't believe in the Trinity because the word Trinity is not found in the Bible?

I'm just trying to say that, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, one body, so there shouldn't be any division, all of like mind as scripture says. This does not mean that we will not disagree here and there, but that we will not hold division in our hearts as we sit around discussing biblical things. This happens when things begin to get a bit snippy. We shouldn't do that. I love you brothers and we can do this in brotherly love with the slightest effort to simply be very soft hearted about it. We've all done it, I used to be bad at it. But I'm learning that this is how we are supposed to walk. Let us continue this very interesting conversation...in brotherly love! Bless you both...

Let's get this straight, right now. I believe that the Bible is true, and I believe what there is Biblical EVIDENCE for. That leaves "spirit death" out.

Allright then. I can respect that. Thanks for clarifying your general view of the bible as truth, praise the Lord for that, it is true, but you like to see evidence of as much as you can. Got it. Not a totally uncommon position to run into. I like evidence too, but hold the view that, scripture can be taken literally in all but the most obvious passages which are indicated with words or phrases which indictate parable or metaphors etc., like 'as unto', 'like' or 'is like'...stuff like that and that faith (trust) is more trustworthy than even worldly evidences, which can be misinterpreted, forged, lied about, data skewed whether accident or intentional does not matter, the point is man is very very fallible naturally and also deceitful, deception is always warned about in scripture a lot. There's a point where I can say ok God said this is simple, so I humbly approach the Word with a very heavy dose of this is all probably literal, and says what he means and means what he said.

and it did say he'd die, that day, if he ate the fruit. Now God doesn't lie, every word is true, So what happened then? Something had to happen because the Lord said so. We know very little to zilch about the spiritual realm. We are to live for the spirit and lay everything at the spirits feet to be led, as a little child who knows nothing but wants to learn from the Lord...

You do believe that we have a spirit, right? We're 3 components, just like God, body/soul/spirit, whereas the Lord is Father/Son/Holy Spirit...Right, brother?

 

[Karl]

Karl, you are being offensive.

Really Tim, ...I say this in brotherly love and not to be mean, condemning or judgmental, what I do with your posts is practice good listening skills in reading all of your responses and putting them all together I post back to you what I understand you have said throughout this discussion.

 

[TimothyW]

I can see that people have strong feelings about this. Maybe we just shouldn't discuss whether or not Adam died that day. I believe that the Bible is true, and if anyone had shown me a verse from the Bible that said that Adam died that day, I would accept it. That is not being "divisive", that is being "discerning". I've shown you (plural) the Bible verses supporting what I am saying. Genesis 5:5 says that Adam died when he was 930 years old and it says that he lived until then. As Edward said, God doesn't lie. God's word says that Adam lived until he died when he was 930 years old. This means that he did not die anytime before that. Again, if anyone has a verse that says that Adam died in anyway before he was 930 years old, I will accept that and change my mind. This is not me being divisive, this is me being discerning. I don't want to be led astray (once again!) by anyone. So I always insist on seeing the actual Chapter and Verse whenever anyone tells me the Bible says such and such. Show Me "such and such". And if you can't show me the verse, don't then claim that I don't understand it because the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed it to me. The Holy Spirit does not contradict what the Bible says. How could He? Does God contradict God's Word? And to say that I "Cherry Pick" certain verses to believe and "Cherry Pick" other verses to disbelieve is simply untrue. If you had shown me even one verse that said that Adam's spirit died the day he ate the fruit, I would have believed you. You can't expect more than that.