Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[UberMink]

Yup, clear as mud lol.

John 16:10b
because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

Essentially, I am going to where I already am. Ha, there is something here that makes me chuckle lol.

Logic has its place, but the story is living and active. ;-)

I love that. He's saying, I am going to the Father where you can no longer see me, who is the Father who dwelt among you.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yup, clear as mud lol.

John 16:10b
because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

Essentially, I am going to where I already am. Ha, there is something here that makes me chuckle lol.

Logic has its place, but the story is living and active. ;-)

God is logical in everything He does. And logic is fundamental in apologetics. Helps one spot errors in reasoning. Recently I saw this:
'Every body over generalizes to make a point."
Not an exact quote but close enough.
"There is no ultimate truth"
These statements are logically incoherent.

 

[LovethroughDove]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son , that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.


Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Maybe the scribes wrote the conflicting prophecies for the soul so that those who do follow Christ's voice can distinguish the difference when they first know God is love.

I see perish/destroy/hell/darkness........As the same things. The reason I'm thoroughly convinced that hell and torment are eternal is the eye witness accounts of it. Bill Wiese was taken to hell and he saw the different aspects of it. In a prison-like cell, demons repeatedly destroyed his soul-body (Your soul-body is more real than your physical body) He was perishing non-stop. Just like the people he saw in the lava-like area.

When it says "put everything under him, so that God may be all in all"....This does not include the darkness

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

The second death is hell
Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

The last enemy destroyed is death (the first death......physical dying......that's cause it's the end of the age)

Why would people care about hell at all if you just get destroyed? Most people think we just get destroyed after physical death anyways. It's not scriptural to say there isn't eternal punishment. Just as I posted previously. Matthew 25:46

 

[UberMink]

Maybe God makes the topic of the afterlife for those who die in their sins a matter of debate so that the world's people keep the topic alive and thoughtful.
Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things, says the Lord Almighty." (Malachi 4:3)

 

[LovethroughDove]

Maybe God makes the topic of the afterlife for those who die in their sins a matter of debate so that the world's people keep the topic alive and thoughtful.
Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things, says the Lord Almighty." (Malachi 4:3)

Agree with you on that.
I feel compelled to pair this scripture with what you said
Matthew 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Here's a quote that pretty much is my view. I know there are other views but I cannot get past a loving God eternally "torturing" creatures he created in His image. I've long ago rejected this idea of God. His love is perfect and this sort of thing is not perfect love by any stretch.

Clark H. Pinnock picks up on this theme as well:

Let me say at the outset that I consider the concept of hell as endless torment in body and mind an outrageous doctrine, a theological and moral enormity, a bad doctrine of the tradition which needs to be changed. How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon His creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards, and by the gospel itself. How can we possibly preach that God has so arranged things that a number of his creatures (perhaps a large number predestined to that fate) will undergo (in a state of complete consciousness) physical and mental agony through unending time? Is this not a most disturbing concept which needs some second thoughts? Surely the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is no fiend; torturing people without end is not what our God does. Does the one who told us to love our enemies intend to wreak vengeance on his own enemies for all eternity? As H. KŸng appropriately asks, "What would we think of a human being who satisfied his thirst for revenge so implacably and insatiably?"
(The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent by Clark H. Pinnock McMaster Divinity College Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, Pinncok article defending Conditional Immortality)​

 

[Razeontherock]

Then add the idea of predestination to it and what does that say about God's character? I find it slanderous.

 

[Jim Parker]

Here's a quote that pretty much is my view. I know there are other views but I cannot get past a loving God eternally "torturing" creatures he created in His image. I've long ago rejected this idea of God. His love is perfect and this sort of thing is not perfect love by any stretch.

Dr. Pinnock rejects the teaching of scripture as, apparently, you do also.
Other members have already posted all the scripture that bears upon the issue.
I would reiterate, however, that God has done everything necessary for every last human being to spend eternity in His presence bathed in His perfect love.
But everyone who rejects God's gracious offer gets to spend eternity separated from God in a hopeless, loveless, existence of their own choosing yet still sustained by God's infinite love.
That is not God torturing anyone. That is those who choose to reject God choosing the torture of an eternal, meaningless, hate-filled existence of their own making.
See C. S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce" for a good illustration.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Then add the idea of predestination to it and what does that say about God's character? I find it slanderous.

The teaching of predestination, as propagated by Calvinists, is not Biblical. God knows who will choose Him and who will reject Him but He gives everyone plenty of time and everything necessary to repent and choose eternal life.
Foreknowledge is not foreordination.
God does not force anyone to love Him nor does He prevent anyone from doing so.
If He did, He would not be God; He's be a monster.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Dr. Pinnock is a proponent of "Open Theism.
Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future.
Open Theism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
https://www.iep.utm.edu/o-theism/
That definition is nonsense. One cannot be both omniscient and ignorant of what people will freely do in the future particularly when God does not exist "in time". All "time" is present to God. Therefore, being omniscient and experiencing past,present, and future as "now", it is impossible to be unaware of what people wil do in their experience of the future.

iakov the fool

 

[Papa Zoom]

Dr. Pinnock rejects the teaching of scripture as, apparently, you do also.
Other members have already posted all the scripture that bears upon the issue.
I would reiterate, however, that God has done everything necessary for every last human being to spend eternity in His presence bathed in His perfect love.
But everyone who rejects God's gracious offer gets to spend eternity separated from God in a hopeless, loveless, existence of their own choosing yet still sustained by God's infinite love.
That is not God torturing anyone. That is those who choose to reject God choosing the torture of an eternal, meaningless, hate-filled existence of their own making.
See C. S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce" for a good illustration.

iakov the fool

Yes, that must be it. I reject the teaching of Scripture. I knew there was something I was missing. I just couldn't put my finger on it. The Scripture! I guess I'll have to go find that dusty ole Bible of mine. If I even have one!

 

[Papa Zoom]

Dr. Pinnock is a proponent of "Open Theism.
Open Theism is the thesis that, because God loves us and desires that we freely choose to reciprocate His love, He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future.
Open Theism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
https://www.iep.utm.edu/o-theism/
That definition is nonsense. One cannot be both omniscient and ignorant of what people will freely do in the future particularly when God does not exist "in time". All "time" is present to God. Therefore, being omniscient and experiencing past,present, and future as "now", it is impossible to be unaware of what people wil do in their experience of the future.

iakov the fool

It's an Ad hominem fallacy to attack the person in order to discredit and idea you don't agree with. But then again, Dr Pinnock is the ONLY one that holds to the Conditional View. If there were more biblical scholars that held to that view....wait a sec.....

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes, that must be it. I reject the teaching of Scripture. I knew there was something I was missing.

2
OK Got me.

Dr Pinnock is the ONLY one that holds to the Conditional View. If there were more biblical scholars that held to that view....wait a sec.....

"In Pinnock’s view, God could not have predicted salvation through the cross since Christ may or may not have been crucified at the hands of wicked men. Yet the Word of God is clear on the matter."
Take a read of this:
https://banneroftruth.org/us/resources/articles/2001/the-teaching-of-clark-pinnock/

 

[Jim Parker]

It's an Ad hominem fallacy to attack the person in order to discredit and idea you don't agree with.

So you agree that "God could not have predicted salvation through the cross since Christ may or may not have been crucified at the hands of wicked men."?
If someone tells me that the moon is made of cheese and I say he's full of cheese, that is not an "ad hominem attack." That is a statement of fact given that my use of the word "cheese" is a metaphor for a different ingredient.

 

[Papa Zoom]

https://www.christianpost.com/news/dr-clark-h-pinnock-voice-of-open-theism-7570/

I studied Pinnock in college. I know his view on Open Theism. I don't agree with it completely but that view has nothing to do with his view of Hell. And I only quoted him because he states exactly what I came to believe apart from anything he has said. It's a sadistic god that would created a human body that cannot die so it can sizzle in a fire and feel that pain for eternity. Pinnock said it much more eloquently. So to counter his quote on Hell, you attacked him for his ideas on Open Theism. Which has stopped this conversation in its tracks. And this folks is an example of why it's NOT safe to hold to a different view because you'll be told you are against the Scripture. And here I thought I was for God. Well, I guess that's that.

 

[JLB]

Here is something to consider, concerning what the scripture says about this matter.

I think we all agree, that God is a loving merciful Father, who loves all of mankind dearly, and wants us to be with Him forever in His kingdom, as His sons.

I don’t honestly believe we have the capacity, while in the flesh, to comprehend the riches of His love for each of us, though Paul prays for the Church to do so.



Likewise, God is also just, and without partiality.

I don’t honestly believe we can’t comprehend just how perfectly just He is.

I think we all know this story, so I will pick it up in verse 28.


28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet[d] and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’[e] 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:28-35


Key Point -


And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”


I think we all can agree, that a person who once enjoyed the forgiveness of sins, then had that forgiveness revoked, would indeed be sentenced to hell with the sinners.

I see no evidence of the person ceasing to exist in this teaching.

On the contrary, will continue to be tortured until...


The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, that turns one away from the snares of death.



JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

A finite creature, who could have lived a basically good life but didn't know Jesus, is going to die one day and be resurrected to a new body - one that can never die. That way, a good and loving god can throw that person into a fire to burn and be tormented day and night forever. A sliver of life on earth and the sins that come with it, can only receive proper justice to burn eternally. Mind you, normally a fire would kill the body but not now, because god will make it so you can't die - that way you can suffer and feel the pain of fire day and night.

Oh yeah, and Jesus love you. Now, let me tell you about the 4 spiritual laws.

 

[JLB]

I don’t know about 4 spiritual laws, but I do know what the scripture says.


34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Acts 10:34-35




JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

I don’t know about 4 spiritual laws, but I do know what the scripture says.


34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Acts 10:34-35




JLB

I was being sarcastic. I've had enough fire and brimstone preaching and I don't buy it. God is first and foremost a God of love. Perfect love. The whole of Scripture has hidden mysteries in it. We have more questions than answers. Anyone who thinks they "know" the answers is acting foolishly. We can have strong beliefs and we can have a high degree of confidence, but we can't know as God knows. That is because we have no way of fully knowing that we are knowing.

If I believe something is true, but I'm wrong, how will I know?

People often say, the Scripture is plain. But to that I say, nonsense. If it were so plain, you'd believe exactly what I believe. But you don't. I read the same Bible as you and come away with a different view. When I ask, why is that? I'm told, "You don't understand Scripture."

Funny, I was thinking the same thing of the other person!

We don't understand what we think we understand when it comes to the full Grace of God. And whatever Hell is, it's not burning sulfur to torture people for eternity. For what purpose? To appease an angry god? What? Like Moloch?

No, our God is not that way. I've got scriptures too that I can quote to support my view.

Fear of the Lord is not to be afraid of Him. It's to be in awe of Him for who He is. He is worthy. What would a perfect loving God whose justice is pure and to be celebrated do to creatures that reject Him?

 

[Jim Parker]

A finite creature, who could have lived a basically good life but didn't know Jesus, is going to die one day and be resurrected to a new body - one that can never die. That way, a good and loving god can throw that person into a fire to burn and be tormented day and night forever.

Scripture does not describe God as acting like that.
It is those who know Him and still reject Him that will be consigned to whatever hell turns out to be.
Psa 116:5
Gracious is the LORD, and righteous;
Yes, our God is merciful.
I see in scripture the revelation of God as merciful toward anyone who tries to be merciful, just, and humble.

That way, a good and loving god can throw that person into a fire to burn and be tormented day and night forever.

No where in scripture is God described like that.
It is those who choose to be His enemies who are punished; not the guy who never heard of Jesus.

And since the scripture does not specifically address the question, one guess is as good as another. So, if you're going to offer another opinion, you need to get me another beer.