Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[kjb1769]

How were the Ephesians in chapter 1 saved?
By trusting something right?
Works were not involved.

 

[Drew]

How were the Ephesians in chapter 1 saved?
By trusting something right?
Works were not involved.

I do not think you will be able to make this case.

Remember, on the position that I am suggesting that Paul advocates, those who place faith in Jesus are basically guaranteed to then manifest "saving good deeds".

Therefore, and this is really important, any statement about being "saved by faith" does not contradict what Paul writes in Romans 2 - that final salvatation is granted according to good works.

 

[Danus]

Your correct when you say the "that" is referring to efforts of our own. That's "not" what I was disputing however. That were agreeing upon. But did you read the rest of my interpretation ?

The "gift" of faith you speak of, is given to ALL of humanity. We're all able to choose what
we believe or not...

Humm........All have faith from God given to them and we take that and belive whatever we belive with that faith God gives us in him and so that's faith in God? If the bases of faith is that which we simply believe then who are we to question anyone for their belief? After all it's just their faith. Our faith has to be more than that.

If God gives faith than he can deny it also. True? Either way he does so for his will not ours. So what's the point in giving a measure of faith to someone how is going to take that faith and misplace it anyway in say...flying rainbows

Faith in Christ Jesus, and what he did for us,for who we are....is WAY more than just a belief. Faith is a real thing, if we are to have it at all. otherwise it's just something we say.

How do you explain the woman who reached out to touch the hem of Christ's garment and His response ? How do you explain the Centurions faith and how Christ was so impressed with it. ? How do you explain Peters (walking on water experience) and how Christ said to him Ye of little faith why did you doubt. These are all examples of human faith or lack of in some instances. Christ said you can move mountains with faith. One man said to Christ, I believe help my unbelief and Christ did...

What do you mean; how do I explain it? Christ, being God in the flesh, had the ability to see in the hearts of man. He knew who had faith and who did not. God gives a "measure" of faith, but there is no indication that he gives this to all for nothing. This also does not prove that faith does not come from God.

However, I think it's fair to say that we have the ability to exercise our faith. Do you think? ;)

 

[glorydaz]

How do you explain the woman who reached out to touch the hem of Christ's garment and His response ? How do you explain the Centurions faith and how Christ was so impressed with it. ? How do you explain Peters (walking on water experience) and how Christ said to him Ye of little faith why did you doubt. These are all examples of human faith or lack of in some instances. Christ said you can move mountains with faith. One man said to Christ, I believe help my unbelief and Christ did...

I explain it by saying there is the faith of Christ, and our faith in Christ. Had the woman not seen Christ...had Christ not been lifted up, she would have no faith to believe He could heal. There are many verses that speak of our faith, but there is also the faith of Christ.

Christ's faith unto all and upon all them that believe....

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

We live by His faith...not our own.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

From faith to faith....His to ours in Him.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[glorydaz]

I do not think you will be able to make this case.

Remember, on the position that I am suggesting that Paul advocates, those who place faith in Jesus are basically guaranteed to then manifest "saving good deeds".

Therefore, and this is really important, any statement about being "saved by faith" does not contradict what Paul writes in Romans 2 - that final salvatation is granted according to good works.

No, final salvation is not granted according to good works, but according to faith. His faith to us, our faith in Him, and good works are the consequence of our being saved. You're correct, though, that being saved by faith is not contradicted by what Paul says in Romans 2.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Humm........All have faith from God given to them and we take that and belive whatever we belive with that faith God gives us in him and so that's faith in God? If the bases of faith is that which we simply believe then who are we to question anyone for their belief? After all it's just their faith. Our faith has to be more than that.

If God gives faith than he can deny it also. True? Either way he does so for his will not ours. So what's the point in giving a measure of faith to someone how is going to take that faith and misplace it anyway in say...flying rainbows

Faith in Christ Jesus, and what he did for us,for who we are....is WAY more than just a belief. Faith is a real thing, if we are to have it at all. otherwise it's just something we say.





What do you mean; how do I explain it? Christ, being God in the flesh, had the ability to see in the hearts of man. He knew who had faith and who did not. God gives a "measure" of faith, but there is no indication that he gives this to all for nothing. This also does not prove that faith does not come from God.

However, I think it's fair to say that we have the ability to exercise our faith. Do you think? ;)

Danus says-----All have faith from God given to them and we take that and belive whatever we belive with that faith God gives us in him and so that's faith in God?

Grubal----That's not an accurate conclusion to what I said. What I'm saying is that, God has created ALL men with the freedom to choose whatever they want to believe in...God forces no man to choose His way...

Danus says----- If the bases of faith is that which we simply believe then who are we to question anyone for their belief? After all it's just their faith. Our faith has to be more than that.

Grubal----It depends on, what you ultimately put your faith in... There's only one truth, and Jesus said it best, I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but through me...

Danus says-----If God gives faith than he can deny it also. True?

Grubal-----God gives ALL men the ability to choose where they put their faith...Just as Christ died for the sins of ALL men. Not all will put their faith in Christ though...

Danus-----So what's the point in giving a measure of faith to someone how is going to take that faith and misplace it anyway in say...flying rainbows

Grubal-----The point is, God wants us to come to Him of our "free-will" not because we were forced or coerced into coming to Him...As you say some may misplace their faith in something else, well that's true. But that's the freedom we all have...

Danus-----Faith in Christ Jesus, and what he did for us,for who we are....is WAY more than just a belief. Faith is a real thing, if we are to have it at all. otherwise it's just something we say.

Grubal----Didn't quite understand what your saying ??

Danus-----What do you mean; how do I explain it? Christ, being God in the flesh, had the ability to see in the hearts of man. He knew who had faith and who did not. God gives a "measure" of faith, but there is no indication that he gives this to all for nothing. This also does not prove that faith does not come from God.

Grubal-----Their faith was manifested outwardly. Anyone could see that these people believed. The people in question here, let it be known to Christ and before the rest of the world that they believed in Christ. God doesn't force ANYONE to place their faith in His Son. God wants all men to come to His Son but not all will. That's the price of Free-will...

Danus----However, I think it's fair to say that we have the ability to exercise our faith. Do you think?

Grubal-----We exercise it by, choosing what we believe and what we don't believe...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I explain it by saying there is the faith of Christ, and our faith in Christ. Had the woman not seen Christ...had Christ not been lifted up, she would have no faith to believe He could heal. There are many verses that speak of our faith, but there is also the faith of Christ.

Christ's faith unto all and upon all them that believe....

We live by His faith...not our own.

From faith to faith....His to ours in Him.

The faith of Christ is witnessed in the story of the man who believed but asked Jesus to help his unbelief. Christ then added what the man was missing then the miracle took place...

 

[Danus]

Danus says-----All have faith from God given to them and we take that and belive whatever we belive with that faith God gives us in him and so that's faith in God?

This is why it's difficult to have a written conversation with you GM. You seem to not understand when I am summarizing what you are saying. Then you take that and say it's what I'm saying. When in fact it's what your saying.

Grubal----That's not an accurate conclusion to what I said. What I'm saying is that, God has created ALL men with the freedom to choose whatever they want to believe in...God forces no man to choose His way...

...We'll again it dose summarize what you said, however you'll notice I added a "?" giving you the opportunity to answer. What you have here now is completely different. Now your saying what you meant by God giving all men faith is that he let's us choose.

However, our choice is in fact limited to our nature. Therefore it is by his gift of faith that we are able to chose him.

Danus says----- If the bases of faith is that which we simply believe then who are we to question anyone for their belief? After all it's just their faith. Our faith has to be more than that.

Grubal----It depends on, what you ultimately put your faith in... There's only one truth, and Jesus said it best, I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but through me...

Well then, one is a said faith and the other is a real faith. Does God give a man said faith? I don't think so. Any one can say I believe in X, but does that make X true? If not, then how is one said faith real? How is it of any value if it is not placed in truth?

Muslims believe in their "X", Budist believe in their "X", and so on... Why would God give man a gift for something he wants us to believe in knowing we might use it for something that is a lie?

Danus says-----If God gives faith than he can deny it also. True?

Grubal-----God gives ALL men the ability to choose where they put their faith...Just as Christ died for the sins of ALL men. Not all will put their faith in Christ though...

No not quite. First of all, you did not answer the question. Can God deny faith ? can he hold it back form someone? Man has free will to believe what he wants within the confines of his own nature. This includes all the religions in the world , but he says that we will not choose him on our own. For that he has to intervene because our nature is that of sin. We have to be born again, converted. Given over to a new nature. In that we are given faith.

Danus-----So what's the point in giving a measure of faith to someone how is going to take that faith and misplace it anyway in say...flying rainbows

Grubal-----The point is, God wants us to come to Him of our "free-will" not because we were forced or coerced into coming to Him...As you say some may misplace their faith in something else, well that's true. But that's the freedom we all have...

But he says we will not on our own do this. God only gives a measure of faith to those he elects to do so for his own benefit, not ours. It's not about you, it's about him.

This does not negate the fact that you, or others who have heard the word, seek him, and are in fact elect for salvation. I have no doubt about that. However, to think that ones salvation is because of their own effort to be saved fly's in the face of what the bible clearly teaches about the nature of God, the nature of man and the relationship between the two.

Danus-----Faith in Christ Jesus, and what he did for us,for who we are....is WAY more than just a belief. Faith is a real thing, if we are to have it at all. otherwise it's just something we say.

Grubal----Didn't quite understand what your saying ??

And I respect your honesty. But I do want you to see it.

Faith is different from belief. The two are similar, but not the same. Faith is not just an idea that makes sense. When we speak of the Christian faith is it a conclusion to truth that is solid and free from any doubt. That is the type of faith the bible is speaking of.

Danus-----What do you mean; how do I explain it? Christ, being God in the flesh, had the ability to see in the hearts of man. He knew who had faith and who did not. God gives a "measure" of faith, but there is no indication that he gives this to all for nothing. This also does not prove that faith does not come from God.

Grubal-----Their faith was manifested outwardly. Anyone could see that these people believed. The people in question here, let it be known to Christ and before the rest of the world that they believed in Christ. God doesn't force ANYONE to place their faith in His Son. God wants all men to come to His Son but not all will. That's the price of Free-will...

No one is saying that God forces anyone to believe. brother. And I agree with you. Their faith was displayed. It was real, solid. Your saying it came from them. their ability to manifest it. i'm saying it did not.

I'm saying this on the bases of what God says man is. From his word about us.

Danus----However, I think it's fair to say that we have the ability to exercise our faith. Do you think?

Grubal-----We exercise it by, choosing what we believe and what we don't believe...

Well, this is where we differ. Let me state that I do not think you are less of a Christian. I think you love God just as much as me. I am no more saved than you might be as well. OK? we are brothers in the faith.

However, I am not starting post designed to draw out Armenians. . I'm cool with Arianism to the point where they challenge my understanding and call it wrong. That's where I have to defend the bible. not for the sake of John Calvin, but for the whole of God's word.

So, where would you like to go from here? Let's take one or two scriptures at a time and I will commit to this with you if in fact your here to learn about the reformist view. If all your doing is attacking the reformist view then i'll stop right now and just let you proceed.

Your position is that man has free will and therefore can choose God or reject God.

My position is that man can not, and will not accept God on his own, and that he must be regenerated by God to accept God.

We both agree that God desires all to be saved.
We both agree that not all are saved.

 

[kjb1769]

What works shall a lost, doomed, & damned sinner do today to gain salvation?

 

[EricTheBaptist]

Faith is necessary. The belief of works to get into Heaven is an ancient belief that is not very widespread today. You should do works out of the kindness of God in you but not to get into Heaven. God has made his plan of salvation so simple, if works we're true then not everyone could be saved, and God says everyone can. If someone is disabled you honestly think they can do as many works as someone who isn't? What about the guy turning to Christ on his deathbed how is he going to do enough works to get into Heaven?

 

[Danus]

Faith is necessary. The belief of works to get into Heaven is an ancient belief that is not very widespread today. You should do works out of the kindness of God in you but not to get into Heaven. God has made his plan of salvation so simple, if works we're true then not everyone could be saved, and God says everyone can. If someone is disabled you honestly think they can do as many works as someone who isn't? What about the guy turning to Christ on his deathbed how is he going to do enough works to get into Heaven?

Well put in it's simplest form Eric.

 

[glorydaz]

The faith of Christ is witnessed in the story of the man who believed but asked Jesus to help his unbelief. Christ then added what the man was missing then the miracle took place...

Amen...This shows the exact moment when a man recognizes Jesus as the source. Belief alone isn't enough, for even the devils "believe". There must be trust in the Lord...that He is able. At that moment of trust, the faith of Christ is imparted to us, and it becomes our faith in or toward Him.

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

 

[glorydaz]

However, our choice is in fact limited to our nature. Therefore it is by his gift of faith that we are able to chose him.

True, faith is a gift...Ephesians 2:8-"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Choice being limited to our nature is what's in dispute, I suppose.

Faith is different from belief. The two are similar, but not the same. Faith is not just an idea that makes sense. When we speak of the Christian faith is it a conclusion to truth that is solid and free from any doubt. That is the type of faith the bible is speaking of.

I would say it depends on how belief is used. To believe usually implies a trust.

Matthew 9:28 - "And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord."

Luke 1:45 - " And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord."

Faith comes by hearing the gospel (looking upon Jesus).
I would be inclined to say...Faith = belief + trust + confidence in the source of said belief.

Your position is that man has free will and therefore can choose God or reject God.

My position is that man can not, and will not accept God on his own, and that he must be regenerated by God to accept God.

Then could you please explain to me the serpent on a pole?

I can't seem to get anyone who believes man has no choice until regeneration to address this issue, and you seem like a very reasonable person. Perhaps you could clarify this for me.

 

[glorydaz]

What works shall a lost, doomed, & damned sinner do today to gain salvation?

Look upon the Lord Jesus Christ when He is lifted up. Although that's not exactly a work, is it?

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Faith[faithfulness] and works of Christ was necessary for Salvation, the Salvation of all those given to Him by the Father. Jn 17:2

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

 

[Danus]

Then could you please explain to me the serpent on a pole?

I can't seem to get anyone who believes man has no choice until regeneration to address this issue, and you seem like a very reasonable person. Perhaps you could clarify this for me.

I'd be happy to weigh in on Theology with you. I think you are referring to "Numbers", (Moses and the Serpent on the pole) ? ,but go ahead and tell me your explaination as it fits within yout theology, which I assume is of the Arminian view, and I'll tell you mine from the reformist view. Not sure we will differ much on this, but you first.

 

[glorydaz]

I'd be happy to weigh in on Theology with you. I think you are referring to "Numbers", (Moses and the Serpent on the pole) ? ,but go ahead and tell me your explaination as it fits within yout theology, which I assume is of the Arminian view, and I'll tell you mine from the reformist view. Not sure we will differ much on this, but you first.

I don't think I subscribe to any particular view, although I do see those names being referred to quite often. I tend to listen to what a person says and respond to that.

Yes, it's in Numbers and shows the remedy for sin represented by the poison from the serpents. Everyone that was bitten (by sin - as all have sinned), were told if they looked at the serpent, they would live.

7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Some could have decided not to look at the fiery serpent, but they would have died. They could have run around and caused the poison to spread faster. They could have believed a lancing would have been better. They could have gone to seek herbal remedies. Lots of possibilites. But, it was only those who believed enough to look at the serpent who lived. There we see man's FREE WILL....choosing to look and live. First the look...then LIFE.

When Jesus was telling Nicodemus how to be born again, He pointed back to this serpent on a pole as the way to have eternal life. First we look at Christ, who is lifted up for all to see by the Gospel message, then we have life. We aren't given life and then we look. Right?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[glorydaz]

The Faith[faithfulness] and works of Christ was necessary for Salvation, the Salvation of all those given to Him by the Father. Jn 17:2

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Yep, all those who chose to look when Christ was lifted up to them.

 

[Danus]

I don't think I subscribe to any particular view, although I do see those names being referred to quite often. I tend to listen to what a person says and respond to that.

Yes, it's in Numbers and shows the remedy for sin represented by the poison from the serpents. Everyone that was bitten (by sin - as all have sinned), were told if they looked at the serpent, they would live.

Some could have decided not to look at the fiery serpent, but they would have died. They could have run around and caused the poison to spread faster. They could have believed a lancing would have been better. They could have gone to seek herbal remedies. Lots of possibilites. But, it was only those who believed enough to look at the serpent who lived. There we see man's FREE WILL....choosing to look and live. First the look...then LIFE.

When Jesus was telling Nicodemus how to be born again, He pointed back to this serpent on a pole as the way to have eternal life. First we look at Christ, who is lifted up for all to see by the Gospel message, then we have life. We aren't given life and then we look. Right?

...perhaps when we're done I can get you to at least consider a wider view.

I think your thinking on the right path, and honestly see no real error, but I want to look at this scripture with you from a grater distance. I say this not to belittle your theology, but to journey with you in looking at it in a slightly different way. Let's look at Numbers 21 and do this.

You've made in interesting observation about the Israelites, and their exercising "free will" to live by choosing to look about the brass serpent, as we see described in Numbers 21.

However, if we look deeper into Numbers and wider into the OT from Exodus, what do we see, or what could we say about the Israelites and their "free Will" and God's intervention?

If left to their free will, the Israelites would have stayed in Egypt. Why? because it's all they knew. It's all they trusted. They constantly complained and they constantly wanted to turn back even after they witnessed God's hand at work trying to deliver them. That's what we see of man's "free will" in numbers. We see it's limited. Limited to what? Limited to their nature. A nature of sin. We see in fact that it is the hand or God that brings them out. It is the effort of God that guides them, and we see that it is God who heals them and ultimately saves them. Not the will of these people, but the will of God.

We see God trying to teach and guide them and we see over and over his intervention upon them. the sovereignty of God is such a reoccurring theme in the OT that you can just about blindly point to any passage and read of it.

As you know, the bible is beautifully illustrated with words. It's emblematic in language designed to point to something else, something bigger. Here are some examples: In Noah's day the ark symbolized the gospel as the good news of salvation. The ark was a type of the Saviour. In Abraham's day his son, Isaac, was a symbol of the Lord Jesus Christ. Joseph was a "type" of Christ, a symbol of Jesus. In Moses time the serpent on the pole symbolized the Lord Jesus Christ, and as you pointed out, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:14,15.

Let's look at some more of man's free will and God's will in the book of Numbers.

Man's will: 1 When the Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that Israel was coming along the road to Atharim, he attacked the Israelites and captured some of them. 2 Then Israel made this vow to the LORD: “If you will deliver these people into our hands, we will totally destroy[a] their cities.”

God's will: The LORD listened to Israel’s plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns; so the place was named Hormah.

Man's will: 4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[c] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”

God's will: 6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.

Man's will: 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

God's will: 8 The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

Now, obviously this whole story is actually God's will upon man. again Man would have stayed in Egypt to begin with, if not for the sovereignty of God and God's will upon man to fulfill God's purpose which is to save man, not man's purpose to save himself. Man is hopeless, without God. Man of his own will would be back in Egypt.

 

[glorydaz]

...perhaps when we're done I can get you to at least consider a wider view.

I think your thinking on the right path, and honestly see no real error, but I want to look at this scripture with you from a grater distance. I say this not to belittle your theology, but to journey with you in looking at it in a slightly different way. Let's look at Numbers 21 and do this.

You've made in interesting observation about the Israelites, and their exercising "free will" to live by choosing to look about the brass serpent, as we see described in Numbers 21.

However, if we look deeper into Numbers and wider into the OT from Exodus, what do we see, or what could we say about the Israelites and their "free Will" and God's intervention?

If left to their free will, the Israelites would have stayed in Egypt. Why? because it's all they knew. It's all they trusted. They constantly complained and they constantly wanted to turn back even after they witnessed God's hand at work trying to deliver them. That's what we see of man's "free will" in numbers. We see it's limited. Limited to what? Limited to their nature. A nature of sin. We see in fact that it is the hand or God that brings them out. It is the effort of God that guides them, and we see that it is God who heals them and ultimately saves them. Not the will of these people, but the will of God.

We see God trying to teach and guide them and we see over and over his intervention upon them. the sovereignty of God is such a reoccurring theme in the OT that you can just about blindly point to any passage and read of it.

As you know, the bible is beautifully illustrated with words. It's emblematic in language designed to point to something else, something bigger. Here are some examples: In Noah's day the ark symbolized the gospel as the good news of salvation. The ark was a type of the Saviour. In Abraham's day his son, Isaac, was a symbol of the Lord Jesus Christ. Joseph was a "type" of Christ, a symbol of Jesus. In Moses time the serpent on the pole symbolized the Lord Jesus Christ, and as you pointed out, as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:14,15.

Let's look at some more of man's free will and God's will in the book of Numbers.

Man's will: 1 When the Canaanite king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that Israel was coming along the road to Atharim, he attacked the Israelites and captured some of them. 2 Then Israel made this vow to the LORD: “If you will deliver these people into our hands, we will totally destroy[a] their cities.â€

God's will: The LORD listened to Israel’s plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns; so the place was named Hormah.

Man's will: 4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[c] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!â€

God's will: 6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.

Man's will: 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us.†So Moses prayed for the people.

God's will: 8 The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.†9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

Now, obviously this whole story is actually God's will upon man. again Man would have stayed in Egypt to begin with, if not for the sovereignty of God and God's will upon man to fulfill God's purpose which is to save man, not man's purpose to save himself. Man is hopeless, without God. Man of his own will would be back in Egypt.

What God does is to draw man into the promised land...no argument there. God draws all men. Without God's drawing, man would not come. Without God's grace, no man could be saved. On that we agree. I believe our point of contention comes when man is sufficiently ripe for the harvest, is man able to turn back or can he choose to cross over (look upon Christ). Some men love Egypt and want to return. Some trust and cross over, just as those who followed Joshua did. I hope you're not of the belief that God created some for destruction, and some for life. That seems to be the only alternative to free will.

Why would God say, "YOU WOULD NOT", rather than "YOU COULD NOT", in response to His drawing them?

To say that man's sinful nature makes it impossible to believe until he's saved isn't supported by any wider view of the Old Testament. Sin came into the world, not into men. Each man chooses to follow his conscience or not, and each man sins on his own account. This is not because our father Adam sinned, but because sin is in the world, and we're weak in the flesh. We don't sin because we have no other choice than to sin. Man is without excuse in that regard. That said, by the grace of God, the evidence in nature, the moral law written in our heart (conscience), and the power of the Gospel message, we can choose to believe and look upon the Son when He is lifted up.