Reformist, Calvin, would agree up to the point of your definition of Free Will, or should I say the nature of Free Will.
No one says that God forces people to believe. What's at issue is does God choose people to be saved, calling them who are chosen elect for salvation. The bible says he does, God says he does.
The counter argument is not a disagreement that the bible says this, or that God says this. the counter argument is ...THAT'S NOT FAIR!
To make it seem fair, people reconstruct the nature of God, the nature of man and the relationship between the two in saying that God gives man a choice when in fact God says over and over that man will not choose him, man is full of sin to the core, man must be regenerated and that he in fact chooses the elect before man can have any hope for salvation. He further illustrates this notion all thought out the bible and yet, there are those who just don't accept it, which backs up what God says about man to begin with. That he not only will not accept him, he can not accept him.
However, if you think it's not fair, that God in fact chooses the elect, your right. It's not fair; It's JUST. It's not only just, it shows the full measure of God's justice, sovereignty, mercy and glory. This does not mean you have to believe or understand this theological understanding to be saved.
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It does not mean your not elect.
Tell you what, if you have any questions about the reformist view, or Calvan that you would like to ask me, I am here to ask.
I am not attempting to discredit the Armenian view on salvation. It's no threat to me, or to ones Salvation. It's a road block to fully understanding the bible, but not one that God does not deal with. Armenians reach a point of full understanding all the time, and it does not make them Calvinist, or any more saved, or liked by God...none of that, however, don't let John Calvin threaten you.
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try instead to reach a real understanding of why the reformist view is what it is to those it is to.
Recommended reading, and I think you will like this. The book is called "Chosen by God" by RC Sproul. It's very good and it will open you up to a wider world. Try it out when you can. here is a link to Amazon on it. You can even look inside the book on this link.
http://www.amazon.com/Chosen-God-R-C-Sproul/dp/0842313354
Danus-----No one says that God forces people to believe. What's at issue is does God choose people to be saved, calling them who are chosen elect for salvation. The bible says he does, God says he does.
Grubal-----Could you use direct versus to back up your stand, please?? People ARE basically "forced" to believe due to the "elect" program of which Calvin taught...What else would you call it, if you had no choice in the matter?? You would call it forced, chosen, or perhaps picked. It's all just "semantics" when it boils down to it...Either way you had no "choice" in the matter...
Danus-----The counter argument is not a disagreement that the bible says this, or that God says this. the counter argument is ...THAT'S NOT FAIR!
Grubal---- No the counter argument is, we are not chosen, we have a choice in the matter...A God given choice...
Danus-----To make it seem fair, people reconstruct the nature of God, the nature of man and the relationship between the two in saying that God gives man a choice when in fact God says over and over that man will not choose him, man is full of sin to the core, man must be regenerated and that he in fact chooses the elect before man can have any hope for salvation. He further illustrates this notion all thought out the bible and yet, there are those who just don't accept it, which backs up what God says about man to begin with. That he not only will not accept him, he can not accept him.
Grubal-----So your saying that "some" people (unmentioned here out of courtesy) change the truth and twist it to something that they can live with?? Rather than seek truth through the Scripture, sort of a "politically correct" thought process, in order for them to except the bitter medication of truth?? I don't wish to put words in your mouth but, is that what your saying??
Danus----- in fact God says over and over that man will not choose him, man is full of sin to the core, man must be regenerated
Grubal---- It's true, if you take the message of God's mercy and forgiveness through Christ, and the Holy Spirit out of the equation, then man would not come to God...However, if we add these two back into the equation, we then have a formula for the Salvation of those who will place their faith in Christ, be born-again and placed in the body of Christ and henceforth, called a "child of God...
Danus-----That he not only will not accept him, he can not accept him.
Grubal-----Man will not accept, (without the striving of the Spirit, and the message of God's Grace,) God....Man has an opportunity to become a child of God, through Christ's work on the cross and by placing his faith in that same Christ...
Danus-----However, if you think it's not fair, that God in fact chooses the elect, your right. It's not fair; It's JUST. It's not only just, it shows the full measure of God's justice, sovereignty, mercy and glory. This does not mean you have to believe or understand this theological understanding to be saved.
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It does not mean your not elect.
Grubal-----God would be within His right's to condemn ALL of humanity, to eternal separation and punishment...That would be "just" for a perfect righteous God...However, because of His love for man, and the worth He see's in man, He sent His Son to die for "our" combined sins... And His mercy and forgiveness is offered to ALL of humanity... To those who will place their faith in His Son, as their Lord and Savior.....
Danus-----Tell you what, if you have any questions about the reformist view, or Calvan that you would like to ask me, I am here to ask.
Grubal-----I know about Calvin and his doctrines, there was a time, many year's ago, (maybe before you were born or per chance, you were very young) that I too bought into Calvin's teaching. And have, long since left the "Calvin camp."
I do appreciate your offer though, and also appreciate your "civil" attitude while sparring on this topic...