IS FREE WILL AN ATTRIBUTE GOD GIFTED TO MAN?

[GodsGrace]

This is the first I have heard that free will was lost at the fall, and I have been a member of reformed churches before. I do, however, think it obvious that that is not possible, since free will first was necessary in order for there to be a fall in the first place. I do not believe in predestination.

Also, you implied it was a given that man was gifted with an absence of sin nature from the beginning. I don't know that Scripture supports that. Again, were it not both for free will and a sin nature, would the fall have been possible? To illustrate: suppose we have a new gun--never been fired. Do guns--by their nature--kill? The gun has a nature; a purpose. Before it ever fires a shot.

Hi 1 pet2_9
Of course free will was not lost at the fall. This is what the reformed believe.
You really have to study Calvinism if you want to understand it. Just attending a church service will not explain too much. Perhaps their bible study would give more information.

I agree with you that God did not predestinate persons for either salvation or damnation.
Some parts of the biblical story were predestinated, but certainly not salvation since God desires that all men be saved.

Adam and Eve could not have had the sin nature.
God said that all He created was good. The sin nature is not good.
The sin nature was in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
When Eve and Adam ate of the fruit, they became aware of sin and what is evil.
Thus they were ashamed before God whereas before they weren't.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think, as a person makes free choices, the "momentum" of those choices accumulates in a particular direction that increasingly constrains the person's freedom to choose differently. Any addiction is an example of what I mean. The man who has become a drunkard did so through a series of choices, the accumulated force of which has carried him into bondage to alcohol. He did not begin in bondage to booze, but in freedom from its destructive power; his choices, however, to consume alcohol, as they are repeated, increasing limit his ability to choose not to drink.

There are, then, genuinely free choices we make, but as those choices are made, they set our will into a certain line of future choices from which it becomes increasingly difficult to extricate ourselves.

Jeremiah 13:23
23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.

Jeremiah 18:11-12
11 "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."'
12 "But they will say, 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'

We harden into various patterns of thinking, desire and choices, for good or ill. It's just the way God has made humans to be. The longer we remain in a certain pattern, the more hardened into it we become and the less able we are to break free of it, or even to think about breaking free of it. I see this in Scripture and in stark evidence in the people around me (and in myself). Think Jezebel. Or Absalom. Or king Zedekiah. Or the Pharisees and scribes.

You got a like from another member that is reformed but I think he doesn't understand what you're saying.
I agree with you 100%.

As it works toward the negative, it can also work toward the positive.
The more we serve God and as our life continues, the more it becomes difficult to commit sin.
(not that we never do, we all sin).
The more we become sensitized to the will of God which is to serve Him only and not the enemy.

I'd also add that forces will always affect our free will.
If we choose not to sin, some force or other will prevail.
And V V.
By force I mean a force within us, for example, our conscience or our desire to please God.
Again, this also works for the negative.
Satan knows our weak points and sometimes the temptation from him will be satisfied.
Only Jesus was able to fend him off completely.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you really expect me to believe that the God who created everything didn't have the free will to make the sky blue instead of purple ?
Do you really expect me to believe that God didn't have the free will to create fish with gills to breath in the water ?
He made all things according to His will !

What could prevent the Lord's will from being accomplished ?

God is not free to sin
.God is not free to lie.
God is not free to change.
His Holy Attributes, Nature, and Perfection Prevent such an idea. It is not a possibility as He always does what He intended to do.

 

[GodsGrace]

God is not free to sin
.God is not free to lie.
God is not free to change.
His Holy Attributes, Nature, and Perfection Prevent such an idea. It is not a possibility as He always does what He intended to do.

Agreed.
God is free to do as He pleases....
but He cannot go against His will and character, His nature, and attributes.

God IS what He is.
This is known as Divine Simplicity.

 

[Hopeful 2]

God is not free to sin
.God is not free to lie.

God is God.
He can do anything He wants.
He just doesn't want to sin/lie.

God is not free to change.

He has changed His mind on numerous occasions.
Gen 6:6, Exod. 32:14, Judges 2:18, 1 Sam 15:35, 2 Sam 24:16.

His Holy Attributes, Nature, and Perfection Prevent such an idea. It is not a possibility as He always does what He intended to do.

He changed His mind about destroying humanity during Noah's time.
How many of the old time believers prayed that God would have mercy on those destined for destruction ?
Moses alone got God to change His mind several times during the 40 year march through the desert.

God doesn't change, but He does occasionally change His mind on some subject.

 

[Iconoclast]

God is God.
He can do anything He wants.
He just doesn't want to sin/lie.

He has changed His mind on numerous occasions.
Gen 6:6, Exod. 32:14, Judges 2:18, 1 Sam 15:35, 2 Sam 24:16.

He changed His mind about destroying humanity during Noah's time.
How many of the old time believers prayed that God would have mercy on those destined for destruction ?
Moses alone got God to change His mind several times during the 40 year march through the desert.

God doesn't change, but He does occasionally change His mind on some subject.

The biblical God never changes, He never has to. The passages you offer are anthropomorphisms.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The biblical God never changes, He never has to. The passages you offer are anthropomorphisms.

As I wrote...God doesn't change, but He does occasionally change His mind on some subjects.
Don't you think God has emotions ?

 

[Tenchi]

As it works toward the negative, it can also work toward the positive.

A very important thing to observe!

 

[Iconoclast]

As I wrote...God doesn't change, but He does occasionally change His mind on some subjects.
Don't you think God has emotions ?

No He never changes His mind. No, He is without passions or emotions. He is God, you are trying to describe a god who is just a man.
Men have changeable emotions, God being perfect gets it right each time.It is always plan A, no need for plan B.

 

[Riven]

No He never changes His mind. No, He is without passions or emotions. He is God, you are trying to describe a god who is just a man.
Men have changeable emotions, God being perfect gets it right each time.It is always plan A, no need for plan B.

Then why did God regret creating man after seeing how sinful they had become? How does a deity with perfect knowledge have regrets?

 

[Hopeful 2]

No He never changes His mind. No, He is without passions or emotions. He is God, you are trying to describe a god who is just a man.
Men have changeable emotions, God being perfect gets it right each time.It is always plan A, no need for plan B.

It is written...

1. Genesis 6:6
   And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
   
   
2. Exodus 32:14
   And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
   
   
3. Judges 2:18
   And when the Lord raised them up judges, then the Lord was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the Lord because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

There are three instances of God regretting His actions and changing His mind about them.
You should be sure your POVs are actually in the bible.

 

[Iconoclast]

Then why did God regret creating man after seeing how sinful they had become? How does a deity with perfect knowledge have regrets?

He doesn't. He has Moses write it, in a way that we can understand.

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Anthropomorphism​

Anthropomorphism
(Gk. anthropos [a[nqrwpo"] [human] + morphe [morfhv] [form]). Assignment of human attributes to nonhuman things. Biblical anthropomorphisms are used primarily in reference to God, who is neither visible ( John 1:18 ) nor human ( Num 23:19 ; 1 Sam 15:29 ). They are also used to assign human characteristics to angels ( Gen 16:7 ; 18:1-19:1 ), Satan ( 1 Chron 21:1 ; Luke 13:16 ), and demons ( Luke 8:32 ). Evil is also personified, depicted as slaying ( Psalm 34:21 ) and pursuing ( Pr 13:21 ). Infrequently, human qualities are attributed to animals ( Nu 22:28-30 ) or vegetation ( Jud 9:7-15 ).
The use of human terminology to talk about God is necessary when we, in our limitations, wish to express truths about the Deity who by his very nature cannot be described or known. From biblical times to the present, people have felt compelled to explain what God is like, and no expressions other than human terms are able to convey any semblance of meaning to the indescribable. Thus, in Genesis alone God creates ( 1:1 ), moves ( 1:2 ), speaks ( 1:3 ), sees ( 1:4 ), divides ( 1:4 ), places ( 1:17 ), blesses ( 1:22 ), plants ( 2:8 ), walks ( 3:8 ), shuts ( 7:16 ), smells ( 8:21 ), descends ( 11:5 ), scatters ( 11:8 ), hears ( 21:17 ), tests ( 22:1 ), and judges ( 30:6 ).
Perhaps the most profound anthropomorphism is the depiction of God establishing a covenant, for the making of covenants is a very human activity. God enters into an agreement (covenant) with Israel at Sinai ( Exod 19:5-6 ), an outgrowth of an earlier covenant he had made with Abraham ( Gen 17:1-18 ). Later, this agreement is transformed into a new covenant through Jesus Christ ( Matt 26:26-29 ). Theologically, the legal compact initiated by God becomes the instrument through which he established an intimate and person al relationship with the people, both collectively and individually. Without anthropomorphic expressions, this theological reality would remain virtually inexplicable.
Anthropomorphisms also attribute human form and shape to God. God redeems Israel from Egyptian bondage with an outstretched arm ( Exod 6:6 ). Moses and his companions see God, and they eat and drink with him ( Exod 24:10-11 ). Other texts refer to the back, face, mouth, lips, ears, eyes, hand, and finger of God. The expression, "the Lord's anger burned" ( Exod 4:14 ) is interesting. A literal translation of the Hebrew is "the nose of the Lord burned."
Indirect anthropomorphic expressions also appear, such as the sword and arrows of the Lord and the throne and footstool of God.
Akin to anthropomorphisms are anthropopathisms (Gk. anthropos [a [nqrwpo"] + pathos [pavqo"] [passion]), used to refer to God's emotions. God is a jealous God ( Exod 20:5 ) who hates ( Am 5:21 ) and becomes angry ( Jer 7:20 ), but he also loves ( Exod 20:6 ) and is pleased ( Deu 28:63 ).
Anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms are figures of speech that transmit theological truths about God to humankind. Only when taken literally are they misconstrued. Taken as metaphorical expressions, they provide by analogy a conceptual framework by which the God who is beyond our comprehension becomes a person — a person whom we can love. In the New Testament the analogy becomes reality in the mystery of the incarnation ( John 1:1-18 ).

Keith N. Schoville​

 

[Fastfredy0]

For this discussion Free Will simply means having the ability to make a moral choice.

The author has failed to define the FREE part of FRED WILL and therefore the thread lacks intellectual foundation.
EVERYONE know men have the ability to make moral choices. Everyone make moral choices every day.

Now, if you google FREE WILL you will find several definitions ... but the definition offered by this thread can't be found because it is obtuse and thus worthless. All arguments based of the thread's definition are STRAW MAN arguments as the definition of FREE WILL has been subverted.

Enough time wasted on pointless thread.

 

[Hopeful 2]

He doesn't. He has Moses write it, in a way that we can understand.

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Anthropomorphism​

Anthropomorphism
(Gk. anthropos [a[nqrwpo"] [human] + morphe [morfhv] [form]). Assignment of human attributes to nonhuman things. Biblical anthropomorphisms are used primarily in reference to God, who is neither visible ( John 1:18 ) nor human ( Num 23:19 ; 1 Sam 15:29 ). They are also used to assign human characteristics to angels ( Gen 16:7 ; 18:1-19:1 ), Satan ( 1 Chron 21:1 ; Luke 13:16 ), and demons ( Luke 8:32 ). Evil is also personified, depicted as slaying ( Psalm 34:21 ) and pursuing ( Pr 13:21 ). Infrequently, human qualities are attributed to animals ( Nu 22:28-30 ) or vegetation ( Jud 9:7-15 ).
The use of human terminology to talk about God is necessary when we, in our limitations, wish to express truths about the Deity who by his very nature cannot be described or known. From biblical times to the present, people have felt compelled to explain what God is like, and no expressions other than human terms are able to convey any semblance of meaning to the indescribable. Thus, in Genesis alone God creates ( 1:1 ), moves ( 1:2 ), speaks ( 1:3 ), sees ( 1:4 ), divides ( 1:4 ), places ( 1:17 ), blesses ( 1:22 ), plants ( 2:8 ), walks ( 3:8 ), shuts ( 7:16 ), smells ( 8:21 ), descends ( 11:5 ), scatters ( 11:8 ), hears ( 21:17 ), tests ( 22:1 ), and judges ( 30:6 ).
Perhaps the most profound anthropomorphism is the depiction of God establishing a covenant, for the making of covenants is a very human activity. God enters into an agreement (covenant) with Israel at Sinai ( Exod 19:5-6 ), an outgrowth of an earlier covenant he had made with Abraham ( Gen 17:1-18 ). Later, this agreement is transformed into a new covenant through Jesus Christ ( Matt 26:26-29 ). Theologically, the legal compact initiated by God becomes the instrument through which he established an intimate and person al relationship with the people, both collectively and individually. Without anthropomorphic expressions, this theological reality would remain virtually inexplicable.
Anthropomorphisms also attribute human form and shape to God. God redeems Israel from Egyptian bondage with an outstretched arm ( Exod 6:6 ). Moses and his companions see God, and they eat and drink with him ( Exod 24:10-11 ). Other texts refer to the back, face, mouth, lips, ears, eyes, hand, and finger of God. The expression, "the Lord's anger burned" ( Exod 4:14 ) is interesting. A literal translation of the Hebrew is "the nose of the Lord burned."
Indirect anthropomorphic expressions also appear, such as the sword and arrows of the Lord and the throne and footstool of God.
Akin to anthropomorphisms are anthropopathisms (Gk. anthropos [a [nqrwpo"] + pathos [pavqo"] [passion]), used to refer to God's emotions. God is a jealous God ( Exod 20:5 ) who hates ( Am 5:21 ) and becomes angry ( Jer 7:20 ), but he also loves ( Exod 20:6 ) and is pleased ( Deu 28:63 ).
Anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms are figures of speech that transmit theological truths about God to humankind. Only when taken literally are they misconstrued. Taken as metaphorical expressions, they provide by analogy a conceptual framework by which the God who is beyond our comprehension becomes a person — a person whom we can love. In the New Testament the analogy becomes reality in the mystery of the incarnation ( John 1:1-18 ).

Keith N. Schoville​

I am happy to believe in the God who has feelings and emotions.
If He didn't have them, neither would those made in His image have them

 

[Tenchi]

If anthropomorphisms of the divine in Scripture do not point to something actual, something true, about God that approximates to something within a human frame of reference, then they would be lies about God. That the Bible repeatedly assigns emotions to God, for example, indicates that God does feel in some sense that permits the anthropomorphism, that legitimizes it. If not, then anthropomorphism of God is not merely analogical rhetoric, but falsehood. If God actually has nothing like human emotion whatever, if He doesn't have emotions at all, in fact, what purpose is served by Scripture offering anthropomorphisms of emotion that suggest He does? How would these not be misleading at best, if not outright falsehoods?

It is because there is actually something akin to the lion that roars in a man who "roars like a lion," that the simile is warranted; it is because Bob's wit is in some real sense like a razor, that his wit is said to be "sharp as a razor"; Lucy is described by her mother as a "songbird" because Lucy is always singing to herself and in this respect actually resembles a songbird. So, too, with biblical descriptions of God. Descriptions of a God who hates, or is jealous, angry, or tender; who is compassionate, or regretful, or longsuffering, all approximate to something actually the case about God.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am happy to believe in the God who has feelings and emotions.
If He didn't have them, neither would those made in His image have them

You must be careful to find out what God reveals about who He is; and Who man is.
While we are image bearers of God, there are differences between us, and God who is High above us.
The people thought The apostles were gods in Acts 14.
To show the people they were not gods and were just men, they said this;
11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.

14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

A man centered theology seeks to bring God down and speak of Him as if He was a changeable man who is erratic and unstable. God does not have such passions. He is Perfect. He does not have emotional "mood swings".
God is Love...His love is constant and eternal. He is not fickle like men, hot and cold.

If a person makes a man centered god, they leave the true God.

 

[Iconoclast]

If anthropomorphisms of the divine in Scripture do not point to something actual, something true, about God that approximates to something within a human frame of reference, then they would be lies about God. That the Bible repeatedly assigns emotions to God, for example, indicates that God does feel in some sense that permits the anthropomorphism, that legitimizes it. If not, then anthropomorphism of God is not merely analogical rhetoric, but falsehood. If God actually has nothing like human emotion whatever, if He doesn't have emotions at all, in fact, what purpose is served by Scripture offering anthropomorphisms of emotion that suggest He does? How would these not be misleading at best, if not outright falsehoods?

It is because there is actually something akin to the lion that roars in a man who "roars like a lion," that the simile is warranted; it is because Bob's wit is in some real sense like a razor, that his wit is said to be "sharp as a razor"; Lucy is described by her mother as a "songbird" because Lucy is always singing to herself and in this respect actually resembles a songbird. So, too, with biblical descriptions of God. Descriptions of a God who hates, or is jealous, angry, or tender; who is compassionate, or regretful, or longsuffering, all approximate to something actually the case about God.

Hello T, consider post 36...Acts 14

 

[Tenchi]

Hello T, consider post 36...Acts 14

Hey!

A man centered theology seeks to bring God down and speak of Him as if He was a changeable man who is erratic and unstable. God does not have such passions. He is Perfect. He does not have emotional "mood swings".
God is Love...His love is constant and eternal. He is not fickle like men, hot and cold.

If a person makes a man centered god, they leave the true God.

Just to be clear: I didn't offer a Man-centered understanding of God; I only pointed out that anthropomorphisms of God in Scripture relate to something actually the case about God. This isn't bringing God down but merely acknowledging what it is to for human beings to be in the "imago dei." There is some likeness to God in how He made us to be.

Of course, God is far more unlike us than like us. He isn't at all like the silly "gods" of human (and demonic) imagination, throwing lightning bolts from atop a mountain, or molesting human women, or demanding children be burned to death in sacrifice to him (Molech), and so on. No, the God revealed in Scripture is quite...alien, actually. I don't know about you, but what it means for God to be "a se" is impossible for me to grasp. When I ponder the power required not only to bring material reality into being but to sustain it moment-by-moment, I find myself both mind-blown and not a little frightened by God. When I consider the depthless love and mercy of God, His patience, holiness and grace, He quickly expands to proportions that make me feel very, very, very small - and deeply grateful that God isn't like me!

But in spite of the alien-ness of God, He is accessible, He is knowable, I can relate with Him daily in intimate communion, just as His word promises (Revelation 3:20; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 John 1:3). Wow.

 

[GodsGrace]

God is God.
He can do anything He wants.
He just doesn't want to sin/lie.

He has changed His mind on numerous occasions.
Gen 6:6, Exod. 32:14, Judges 2:18, 1 Sam 15:35, 2 Sam 24:16.

He changed His mind about destroying humanity during Noah's time.
How many of the old time believers prayed that God would have mercy on those destined for destruction ?
Moses alone got God to change His mind several times during the 40 year march through the desert.

God doesn't change, but He does occasionally change His mind on some subject.

If God changed His mind, how could we ever trust Him again?

The only way we could trust God is to believe that He remains the same and never changes His mind.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus accuses the Jews in Jerusalem of not WANTING to follow Him:
Clearly teaching Free Will of those Jews....

Matthew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.


If I am unwilling to do something, it certainly means that I have the ability to either do or not do....
and the choice is mine.

John Calvin stated something interesting regarding the above.
He said:

"...it does not follow that by the wickedness of men the counsel of God was frustrated."
Book III, Chapter 24, Paragraph 17


When reading Matthew 23:37, it certainly sounds to me as if Jesus, who is God, sounded very frustrated.