IS FREE WILL AN ATTRIBUTE GOD GIFTED TO MAN?

[electedbyhim]

I understand Calvinism is a man made teaching.


You don’t understand the scriptures.

You have not proven either of your claims.

We are still brothers in Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

While my point of view may be off; since none of us can for certain what God's Plan has been since the beginning (although I do have my opinion on that as well), I think is fair to say we should reserve judgement on all of it.

Agreed, though His ultimate plan is known by all...a day of judgement.

If God empowered Moses to part the Red Sea for the Israelites to pass, I'm sure God could have kept everyone of them alive throughout the wilderness.

Could have.

And my first thought is; the Israelites who rejected the law, were the ones who died; because of their own choices and not God's.

They didn't reject the Law, as it wasn't even available till after they made and worshipped the golden calf.
They rejected the God who had just decimated the Egyptians and freed them from slavery.

 

[Iconoclast]

But under Calvinism how can these things you've listed be excuses? Aren't the unbelief, impenitence, ignorance and unwarranted expectations all meticulously ordained by God? Isn't the lost person unalterably lost until God saves them, under Calvinism? How, then, does blame affix to the lost person who has been ordained by God unto all these things? If they don't come to Christ, it is ultimately because God has so-ordained that they shouldn't.

I realize Reformed/Calvinist belief is not monolithic; there is a spectrum of belief on its doctrines of the Total Depravity of Man and Irresistible Grace. But I can cite mainstream, high-profile Reformed proponents who plainly and strongly affirm that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass - not just rejecting Christ, but rape, murder, genocide, etc., too. If this is so, then I can't see how those who are kept from Christ bear any real responsibility for being so kept. Ordained by God to their lostness and spiritual blindness, they are simply acting according to His will.

While God does indeed ordain all that comes to pass, He is not ever the cause of mans sin.Man is 100% responsible for his actions. Here is the 1689;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree 1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

The second causes means it is not God causing the sin

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

Agreed, though His ultimate plan is known by all...a day of judgement.

I believe that is called Final Judgement Day; and some of us aren't even close to that Day.

 

[electedbyhim]

Freewillism is that doctrine that says, “God loves you, Christ died for you, and the Holy Spirit is calling you; but it will all be vain unless you choose to be saved.” Freewillism makes the determining factor in salvation to be the will of man. It makes the work of the Triune God and the grace of God to be impotent without the consent of man’s “freewill.” Freewill religion is in direct opposition to the gospel of the free grace of God. The Bible declares that salvation is not accomplished, determined by, or dependent upon the will of man, but by the will of God (John 1:12-13; Rom. 9:16). The word “freewill”, when used with reference to salvation is a blasphemous obscenity!

Don Fortner​

 

[electedbyhim]

If any man ascribes anything of salvation, even the very least thing, to the free will of man, he know nothing of grace, and he has not learned Jesus Christ rightly.

Martin Luther​

 

[electedbyhim]

Got to love C.H. Spurgeon


Our opponents say, “Salvation belongs to the free will of man; if not to man’s merit, yet at least to man’s will;” but we hold and teach that salvation from first to last, in every iota of it, belongs to the Most High God. It is God that chooses His people. He calls them by His grace; He quickens them by His Spirit, and keeps them by His power.


Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven


Free-will doctrine – what does it? It magnifies man into God; it declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God’s will a waiting servant to the will of man, and the whole covenant of grace dependent upon human action. Denying election on the ground of injustice it holds God to be a debtor to sinners, so that if He gives grace to one He is bound to do so to all. It teaches that the blood of Christ was shed equally for all men and since some are lost, this doctrine ascribes the difference to man’s own will, thus making the atonement itself a powerless thing until the will of man gives it efficacy. Those sentiments dilute the scriptural description of man’s depravity, and by imputing strength to fallen humanity, rob the Spirit of the glory of His effectual grace: this theory says in effect that it is of him that willeth, and of him that runneth, and not of God that showeth mercy.

 

[JLB]

You have not proven either of your claims.

We are still brothers in Christ.

• I believe God desires all men to be saved —

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

• He desires even the elect to be saved —

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


God desires for all men to be saved because He loves the world, and wants them to believe in His Son, so that they may receive eternal life.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world and wants them to believe in His Son, so they may receive everlasting life?






JLB

 

[electedbyhim]

• I believe God desires all men to be saved —

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

• He desires even the elect to be saved —

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


God desires for all men to be saved because He loves the world, and wants them to believe in His Son, so that they may receive eternal life.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the world and wants them to believe in His Son, so they may receive everlasting life?






JLB

I believe that the Love God has for humans is incomprehensible to us. He is infinite. Our limited understanding and thinking wants us to describe God's love as we would. As for the world I believe that He had a love for the sinful world of humanity.

Many of my peers will dispute what I believe. I have studied such passages for a long, especially on God's love and hate. in my finite mind, I will never understand His love and hate.

I tend to believe the following.

Verse 16 is undoubtedly the most familiar and beloved verse in all of Scripture. Yet its very familiarity can cause the profound truth it contains to be overlooked. God’s motive for giving “His indescribable gift” of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 9:15) was that He loved the evil, sinful world of fallen humanity. As noted earlier in this chapter, all humanity is utterly sinful, completely lost, and unable to save itself by any ceremony or effort. Thus, there was nothing in man that attracted God’s love. Rather He loved because He sovereignly determined to do so. The plan of salvation flowed from “the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind” (Titus 3:4). “God demonstrates His own love toward us,” wrote Paul to the Christians in Rome, “in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8). John wrote in his first epistle, “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.… We love, because He first loved us” (1 John 4:10, 19). Such love is so vast, wonderful, and incomprehensible that John, shunning all adjectives, could only write that God so loved the world that He gave His own Beloved Son (cf. 1 John 3:1). World is a nonspecific term for humanity in a general sense. The statement in verse 17, “that the world might be saved through Him,” proves that it does not mean everyone who has ever lived, since all will not be saved. Verse 16 clearly cannot be teaching universal salvation, since the context promises that unbelievers will perish in eternal judgment (vv. 16–18). Our Lord is saying that for all in the world there is only one Savior (1 John 2:2), but only those who are regenerated by the Spirit and who believe in His gospel will receive salvation and eternal life through Him. (For a more extensive discussion of this point, see my book The God Who Loves [Nashville: Word, 2001], especially pp. 99ff.)

Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:19 used the term world in a similar way: “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.” God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not in the sense of universal salvation, but in the sense that the world has no other reconciler. That not all will believe and be reconciled is clear from the pleading in verse 20: “Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” (For a further discussion of those verses, see 2 Corinthians, The MacArthur New Testament Commentary [Chicago: Moody, 2003]).

There are no words in human language that can adequately express the magnitude of God’s saving gift to the world. Even the apostle Paul refused to try, declaring that gift to be “indescribable” (2 Cor. 9:15). The Father gave His only begotten (unique; one of a kind; cf. the discussion of 1:14 in chapter 3 of this volume) Son—the One of whom He declared, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased” (Matt. 3:17; cf. 12:18; 17:5; 2 Peter 1:17); the One whom He “loves … and has given all things into His hand” (John 3:35; cf. 5:20; 15:9; 17:23, 26); the One whom He “highly exalted … and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name” (Phil. 2:9); the One with whom He had enjoyed intimate fellowship from all eternity (John 1:1)—to die as a sacrifice on behalf of sinful men. “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf,” wrote Paul, “so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor. 5:21). In his majestic prophecy of the Suffering Servant Isaiah declared,

He was pierced through for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;

The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,

And by His scourging we are healed.

All of us like sheep have gone astray,

Each of us has turned to his own way;

But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all

To fall on Him. (Isa. 53:5–6)[1]



[1] John F. MacArthur Jr., John 1–11, MacArthur New Testament Commentary (Chicago: Moody Press, 2006), 115–116.

 

[JLB]

But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all

To fall on Him. (Isa. 53:5–6)

Who does all include in this verse?


Everyone or just those He chooses for salvation?





JLB

 

[electedbyhim]

Who does all include in this verse?


Everyone or just those He chooses for salvation?





JLB

Who does all include in this verse?


Everyone or just those He chooses for salvation?





JLB

Only those He chose for salvation.

Everyone or just those He chooses for salvation?

I thought you believed man can choose salvation?

 

[JLB]

Verse 16 is undoubtedly the most familiar and beloved verse in all of Scripture. Yet its very familiarity can cause the profound truth it contains to be overlooked.

One of those profound truths that may be overlooked is what the biblical word “believe” means. We tend to use a “post-modern” definition for believe when we read this word in verse 16.


Most don’t realize that the biblical word “believe” Carrie’s the idea of commit - trust - and obey.

Believe and obey are used interchangeably in scripture.


Here is a verse from John 3 that demonstrates this —


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NASB


We see the phrase believe the Gospel in scripture but do we see and understand the phrase obey the Gospel when we see it?


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

again


For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17


again


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8


Unbelief = Disobedience





JLB

 

[electedbyhim]

One of those profound truths that may be overlooked is what the biblical word “believe” means. We tend to use a “post-modern” definition for believe when we read this word in verse 16.


Most don’t realize that the biblical word “believe” Carrie’s the idea of commit - trust - and obey.

Believe and obey are used interchangeably in scripture.


Here is a verse from John 3 that demonstrates this —


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NASB


We see the phrase believe the Gospel in scripture but do we see and understand the phrase obey the Gospel when we see it?


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

again


For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17


again


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8


Unbelief = Disobedience





JLB

I will agree.

Obedience sums up a true regenerated saint.

 

[JLB]

Only those He chose for salvation.

Thanks for your honest answer.


All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6


Did Jesus go to the cross for the world or for the elect?

• I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


The LORD desires the elect to also obtain salvation.





JLB

 

[JLB]

I will agree.

Obedience sums up a true regenerated saint.

The condition for salvation is obeying the Son; obeying the Gospel of Jesus Christ.



He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36 NKJV

 

[Tenchi]

While God does indeed ordain all that comes to pass, He is not ever the cause of mans sin.Man is 100% responsible for his actions. Here is the 1689;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree 1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

The second causes means it is not God causing the sin

I'm not sure why you've offered me this part of the Confession. All it does, as far as I can see, is assert a contradiction (aka "mystery" in Calvinism) that is not actually present in God's word. No matter who says it, or how formally it is enshrined in something like a Confession, it is nonsensical to say on one hand that God has decreed all things that come to pass, but that God is not therefore the Author of sin. These cannot both be the case without plain contradiction. And without a Reformed/Calvinist lens over my understanding, I can't see that Scripture gives me good cause to think this contradiction actually exists.

Jeremiah 19:4-5
4 "Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

 

[Hopeful 2]

I believe that is called Final Judgement Day; and some of us aren't even close to that Day.

As that day will be the same for all, how can some be any closer to it than others ?

 

[for_his_glory]

I would think that Eve would be the first example of a freewill choice as she gave that which was forbidden to Adam as they shared in a freewill choice to disobey God.

With permission from Joe R. Price to use what he has written about freewill.

FREEWILL
By Joe R. Price
joe@bibleanswer.com

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (cf. Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

Some do not understand the above passages on predestination. They think that if a person is not of those predestinated, he is just out of luck, is eternally damned, and there is nothing he can do about it. However, it is a particular group or class of people that God chose before the foundation of the world and not individuals. It is up to us to be part of that class of those "in Him" if we want to be of the chosen.

 

[jasonc]

I would think that Eve would be the first example of a freewill choice as she gave that which was forbidden to Adam as they shared in a freewill choice to disobey God.

With permission from Joe R. Price to use what he has written about freewill.

FREEWILL
By Joe R. Price
joe@bibleanswer.com

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (cf. Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

Some do not understand the above passages on predestination. They think that if a person is not of those predestinated, he is just out of luck, is eternally damned, and there is nothing he can do about it. However, it is a particular group or class of people that God chose before the foundation of the world and not individuals. It is up to us to be part of that class of those "in Him" if we want to be of the chosen.

Our actions and thoughts are pre known by God .

To him we are not very able quite limited as we can't control much .
Only our thoughts and actions tommorow nay the next second isn't promised .

In him we move ...

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm not sure why you've offered me this part of the Confession. All it does, as far as I can see, is assert a contradiction (aka "mystery" in Calvinism) that is not actually present in God's word. No matter who says it, or how formally it is enshrined in something like a Confession, it is nonsensical to say on one hand that God has decreed all things that come to pass, but that God is not therefore the Author of sin. These cannot both be the case without plain contradiction. And without a Reformed/Calvinist lens over my understanding, I can't see that Scripture gives me good cause to think this contradiction actually exists.

Jeremiah 19:4-5
4 "Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

You do not see it yet. Let me try this way. It was ordained by God the Job was afflicted by Satan, but he could not take his life. Are you suggesting that God forced Satan to afflict Job? Satan did not want to do it, but God somehow forced him???? you are suggesting this with your post...clarify if you would. Also, same case with Judas. Did he want the 30 pieces of silver, or did Jesus force him to betray Him?

You cite Jer. 19:5...are you suggesting that a 100% Omniscient God had something slip by Him without crossing His mind??? or could it have a different meaning?
The wording of the Confession of faith is the consensus of several learned Pastors, based upon the scripture, not just pulling things out of the air.

Nothing can happen, that was not ordained to come to pass. The atom bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. It was ordained to come to pass. Did God himself,
1]create the bomb ?
2] load the bomb on the plane ?
3] Give the order to drop the bomb ?
4] Fly the plane ?
These are secondary means that were used. As the confession states....GOD IS NEVER THE AUTHOR OF SIN.
Sin and death have entered, because of Adam's sin. Blame man, not God.