IS FREE WILL AN ATTRIBUTE GOD GIFTED TO MAN?

[Iconoclast]

Hey!



Just to be clear: I didn't offer a Man-centered understanding of God; I only pointed out that anthropomorphisms of God in Scripture relate to something actually the case about God. This isn't bringing God down but merely acknowledging what it is to for human beings to be in the "imago dei." There is some likeness to God in how He made us to be.

Of course, God is far more unlike us than like us. He isn't at all like the silly "gods" of human (and demonic) imagination, throwing lightning bolts from atop a mountain, or molesting human women, or demanding children be burned to death in sacrifice to him (Molech), and so on. No, the God revealed in Scripture is quite...alien, actually. I don't know about you, but what it means for God to be "a se" is impossible for me to grasp. When I ponder the power required not only to bring material reality into being but to sustain it moment-by-moment, I find myself both mind-blown and not a little frightened by God. When I consider the depthless love and mercy of God, His patience, holiness and grace, He quickly expands to proportions that make me feel very, very, very small - and deeply grateful that God isn't like me!

But in spite of the alien-ness of God, He is accessible, He is knowable, I can relate with Him daily in intimate communion, just as His word promises (Revelation 3:20; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 John 1:3). Wow.

I was posting about hopefuls post.

 

[Whatever]

When God created man, He gifted man with some attributes.
Some were:
Infused Knowledge
Immortality
Absence of the Sin Nature

These gifts were lost at the fall.

The reformed believe that free will was also lost.

It's imperative for the reformed to believe that free will was lost because all of TULIP hinges on this.

If man has free will, TULIP is destroyed.

For this discussion Free Will simply means having the ability to make a moral choice.
We are faced with choices all day long....we either please God or we please the enemy.

Do we have Free Will to make that choice?




Tulipbee

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Jeremiah says no.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Seems to me that making the right moral choice would please God. Paul says the unregenerate cannot do that.

 

[JLB]

The biblical God never changes, He never has to. The passages you offer are anthropomorphisms.

Yes. God is love.

He never changes.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


He loves the world of sinners and desires all men to be saved.


For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1Timothy 2:3-4






JLB

 

[Whatever]

If I am unwilling to do something, it certainly means that I have the ability to either do or not do....

That is the logical fallacy all non Calvinists make. What is the cause of their unwillingness? And we are not talking about just the everyday "something" like putting on white or black socks. We are talking about coming to Christ and hearing His voice.

Joh_10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

The cause of their unbelief was their not being His sheep. His sheep do hear His voice and follow Him.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul does not say the natural wills not, but cannot.

Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

Again, not "you do not will" to listen, but "you are not able."

 

[Whatever]

Does God have free will ?
Of course He does.
Were we made in the image of God ?
Of course we were. (Gen 1:26-27)
If God has free will, then so do we.

God does not have free will the way you non Calvinists think of it. The ability to always choose the opposite.

Tit 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

God does not have your free will to lie or to not lie

Another thing you seem to forget the fall and it's effect on the creation and man himself.

 

[JLB]

That is the logical fallacy all non Calvinists make. What is the cause of their unwillingness? And we are not talking about just the everyday "something" like putting on white or black socks. We are talking about coming to Christ and hearing His voice.

Joh_10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

The cause of their unbelief was their not being His sheep. His sheep do hear His voice and follow Him.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul does not say the natural wills not, but cannot.

Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

Again, not "you do not will" to listen, but "you are not able."

You are lifting the “sheep” Jesus is referring to out of the context, and applying it to all Christians.


The “sheep” Jesus is contextually referring to in John 10, are His Jewish disciples; Apostles

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16


Of course taking the scriptures out of context is MO of Calvinist’s who follow the teachings of man; John Calvin.





JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

You are lifting the “sheep” Jesus is referring to out of the context, and applying it to all Christians.


The “sheep” Jesus is contextually referring to in John 10, are His Jewish disciples; Apostles

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16


Of course taking the scriptures out of context is MO of Calvinist’s who follow the teachings of man; John Calvin.





JLB

Dispensational error

 

[Hopeful 2]

You must be careful to find out what God reveals about who He is; and Who man is.
While we are image bearers of God, there are differences between us, and God who is High above us.

No doubt.

The people thought The apostles were gods in Acts 14.
To show the people they were not gods and were just men, they said this;
11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.

14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

A man centered theology seeks to bring God down and speak of Him as if He was a changeable man who is erratic and unstable. God does not have such passions. He is Perfect. He does not have emotional "mood swings".

Though you over-dramatize it, God went from "and it was good" to destroying the whole world in just a few chapters of Genesis.

God is Love...His love is constant and eternal. He is not fickle like men, hot and cold.

He isn't fickle like unregenerated men.

If a person makes a man centered god, they leave the true God.

What is a man-centered god ?
Is it one who gives His own Son for the salvation of all men ?

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus accuses the Jews in Jerusalem of not WANTING to follow Him:
Clearly teaching Free Will of those Jews...

No it does not "clearly teach FREE WILL"...It teaches a totally depraved heart....a Will bound by sin, and not at all free.

.

Matthew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.


If I am unwilling to do something, it certainly means that I have the ability to either do or not do....
and the choice is mine.

John Calvin stated something interesting regarding the above.
He said:

"...it does not follow that by the wickedness of men the counsel of God was frustrated."
Book III, Chapter 24, Paragraph 17


When reading Matthew 23:37, it certainly sounds to me as if Jesus, who is God, sounded very frustrated.

Only those who do not understand spiritual death correctly would offer a wounded Adam, not a dead Adam.

 

[Hopeful 2]

If God changed His mind, how could we ever trust Him again?

As there a more than a few instance of Him changing His mind, I must ask if it has made you lose trust in Him ?
Quite the contrary for me.
God was ready to destroy Israel in the desert, but Moses talked Him out of it.
His wrath for sinners can be assuaged by a true repentance from sin.
Thank God !!!!

 

[Hopeful 2]

God does not have free will the way you non Calvinists think of it. The ability to always choose the opposite.

I guess I can quit praying for relief from pain than.
He makes me hurt, so just suck it up ?
If God didn't have free will, then neither would those made in His and the Word's image.

Tit 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
God does not have your free will to lie or to not lie

Does it mean I don't have free will if I can't fly ? Or swim ? Or do algebra ?
He may not have free will regarding lying, but as being God, He could choose to lie any time He wants.
The rules are His to keep or change.
But He chooses to remain true.

Another thing you seem to forget the fall and it's effect on the creation and man himself.

In what regards ? OP wise ?

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus accuses the Jews in Jerusalem of not WANTING to follow Him:
Clearly teaching Free Will of those Jews....

Matthew 23:37
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.


If I am unwilling to do something, it certainly means that I have the ability to either do or not do....
and the choice is mine.

John Calvin stated something interesting regarding the above.
He said:

"...it does not follow that by the wickedness of men the counsel of God was frustrated."
Book III, Chapter 24, Paragraph 17


When reading Matthew 23:37, it certainly sounds to me as if Jesus, who is God, sounded very frustrated.

What keeps some people from Christ? Al Martin outlines four important reasons:
1) Ignorance of your desperate need of Christ;
2) Impenitence before the searching demands of Christ;
3) Unbelief with respect to the promises of Christ;
4) Unwarranted expectation of additional revelation from Christ.
These are often the reasons many will not come to Christ. May the Lord draw many more to Himself, breaking down all their excuses!
https://www.chapellibrary.org/book/rwsw/

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

This is my kind of conversation.

While we do have free will; there are occasionally those born whose lives are preordained. But even in free will; looking back on my own life, there have been situations I have encountered not of my own choosing. In those given situations I did have a choice to make; but the event or situation was caused (or controlled) by another.

As there a more than a few instance of Him changing His mind, I must ask if it has made you lose trust in Him ?

Whoever said God has changed His mind? The Story of Man and His Plan have been consistent; but God's choices (His free will) are generally set by what the people do, in the choices the people make. When the people got carried away with Sin; He sent the flood, with Noah. While He did foresee that need; in the few hundred years leading up to that choice that God made, if the people had shown the flood was not needed; then God would have made the choice to hold back the water.

God has a choice in all things; but that does not mean He has changed His mind. The Story of Man does continue; and all that is, has fulfilled His Purpose. Even up until this point; where this world is in such bad shape, it still does serve His Purpose to continue.

 

[Tenchi]

If God changed His mind, how could we ever trust Him again?

The only way we could trust God is to believe that He remains the same and never changes His mind.

I trust my wife enormously, but she has changed her mind about many things...

 

[Tenchi]

What keeps some people from Christ? Al Martin outlines four important reasons:
1) Ignorance of your desperate need of Christ;
2) Impenitence before the searching demands of Christ;
3) Unbelief with respect to the promises of Christ;
4) Unwarranted expectation of additional revelation from Christ.
These are often the reasons many will not come to Christ. May the Lord draw many more to Himself, breaking down all their excuses!

But under Calvinism how can these things you've listed be excuses? Aren't the unbelief, impenitence, ignorance and unwarranted expectations all meticulously ordained by God? Isn't the lost person unalterably lost until God saves them, under Calvinism? How, then, does blame affix to the lost person who has been ordained by God unto all these things? If they don't come to Christ, it is ultimately because God has so-ordained that they shouldn't.

I realize Reformed/Calvinist belief is not monolithic; there is a spectrum of belief on its doctrines of the Total Depravity of Man and Irresistible Grace. But I can cite mainstream, high-profile Reformed proponents who plainly and strongly affirm that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass - not just rejecting Christ, but rape, murder, genocide, etc., too. If this is so, then I can't see how those who are kept from Christ bear any real responsibility for being so kept. Ordained by God to their lostness and spiritual blindness, they are simply acting according to His will.

 

[Hopeful 2]

This is my kind of conversation.
While we do have free will; there are occasionally those born whose lives are preordained. But even in free will; looking back on my own life, there have been situations I have encountered not of my own choosing. In those given situations I did have a choice to make; but the event or situation was caused (or controlled) by another.

You made the choice.
I don't think calvinists will agree with you.

Whoever said God has changed His mind?

The bible says it.
Here are three examples...

1. Genesis 6:6
   And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
   Exodus 32:14
2. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
   1 Samuel 15:35
3. And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
   
   ENLIGHTENEDTRUTH:
4. The Story of Man and His Plan have been consistent; but God's choices (His free will) are generally set by what the people do, in the choices the people make. When the people got carried away with Sin; He sent the flood, with Noah. While He did foresee that need; in the few hundred years leading up to that choice that God made, if the people had shown the flood was not needed; then God would have made the choice to hold back the water.
   
   God has a choice in all things; but that does not mean He has changed His mind. The Story of Man does continue; and all that is, has fulfilled His Purpose. Even up until this point; where this world is in such bad shape, it still does serve His Purpose to continue.
   That is one way of looking at it, and I am sure God is never surprised by anything.
   But as God was going to lead the escaping Israelites to the promised land, He ended up changing His mind, and let most of them die in the wilderness.
   Circumstances forced His change of mind.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

But as God was going to lead the escaping Israelites to the promised land, He ended up changing His mind, and let most of them die in the wilderness.

While my point of view may be off; since none of us can for certain what God's Plan has been since the beginning (although I do have my opinion on that as well), I think is fair to say we should reserve judgement on all of it. If God empowered Moses to part the Red Sea for the Israelites to pass, I'm sure God could have kept everyone of them alive throughout the wilderness. And my first thought is; the Israelites who rejected the law, were the ones who died; because of their own choices and not God's.

 

[JLB]

Dispensational error

I posted scripture.

If you believe the scriptures are in error then that is between you and God.


I have found that Calvinist’s prefer their own teachings over scripture.

 

[electedbyhim]

I posted scripture.

If you believe the scriptures are in error then that is between you and God.


I have found that Calvinist’s prefer their own teachings over scripture.

You do not understand Calvinism.

 

[JLB]

You do not understand Calvinism.

I understand Calvinism is a man made teaching.


You don’t understand the scriptures.