IS FREE WILL AN ATTRIBUTE GOD GIFTED TO MAN?

[Iconoclast]

Yes, but what they don't often point out is that the person choosing what they want is made to want what they want by God. How, then, are they really choosing in any truly free sense? Obviously, they aren't, on Calvinism.

I am glad God made me willing in the day of His power. I would have perished in unbelief and sin otherwise.
God wrote this by the psalmist; 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

 

[Tenchi]

It is all in the archives there. I stand by what I posted. He has not welcomed correction and still posts error daily.

This misses my point.

Well maybe you could call up the dividing line program and deal with Dr.White directly, and correct him for us!

This misses my point, too. Why in the world would I want to deal with White directly when he has been so quick to ad hominem and various fallacies of reason with opponents of Reformed doctrine?

Well , you can believe what you want, and all the man centered teaching of these people. If you want to discuss truth, we can do that. If not tune in to Roger Olson, and the failed LF.

This sort of partisan rhetoric doesn't aid discussion but simply polarizes it, creating animosity rather than understanding.

 

[Iconoclast]

This misses my point.

I do not think it misses the point

This misses my point, too. Why in the world would I want to deal with White directly

Deal direct, rather than take pot shots at him. Dr.White is a friend of mine. I have seen him deal with people face to face, and he did so very graciously. people who offer these attacks I have found to be less than sincere.

when he has been so quick to ad hominem and various fallacies of reason with opponents of Reformed doctrine?

Prove it. Anyone can claim anything, to prove it is another matter.

This sort of partisan rhetoric doesn't aid discussion but simply polarizes it, creating animosity rather than understanding.

There is no discussion to be had, if you will not look at the original sources. You have put on your man centered glasses and look through that lens.

 

[Tenchi]

I do not think it misses the point

Yes, I realize this. That you don't think you missed it is exactly why you have.

Deal direct, rather than take pot shots at him.

Um, have you not taken "pot shots" at Dr. Flowers in this thread?

I have seen him deal with people face to face, and he did so very graciously.

Well, I'm glad to hear it. Unfortunately, James White's videos speak for themselves in regards to his ad hominem attacks on Dr. Flowers (and on non-Calvinists generally) and on the ugly manner of his rhetoric generally when dealing with Dr. Flowers's rebuttals to his views.

Prove it. Anyone can claim anything, to prove it is another matter.

There are any number of videos Leighton Flowers has made that draw out both the ad hominem attacks and the fallacious rhetoric of James White. Almost every video rebuttal Leighton makes involves some exposure of this stuff in which James White indulges. Feel free to watch them; there are dozens and dozens of them on YouTube.

There is no discussion to be had, if you will not look at the original sources. You have put on your man centered glasses and look through that lens.

Ah, well, at least you acknowledge that you're aren't looking for discussion but simply to assert your view and deride all others. We might as well stop this back-and-forth, then. It's not helpful to other readers and not glorifying to God, I think.

 

[Iconoclast]

No...I was looking for discussion but not like this. I will stick with my reformed brothers and stand against all dishonest attacks of leighton and others. I told you I interacted with him for years and know his dishonest tactics.
I have not taken potshots, but my comments were based on actual direct interactions with him.
The archives are still in print. Flowers lack of understanding are demonstrated as he seeks to skewer all the godly men, from the past or present. Listening to his unbiblical philosophy podcast damages brain cells.

 

[electedbyhim]

No, free will is a sign of maturity. "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good." (Is. 7:15-16) Tell me, was Jesus given a free will to sin? Why did He get to consciously rufuse the evil and choose the good, not automatically choosing good? He was given free will to overcome sin, not to indulge in sin. God doesn't depend on us, we depend on the power of God's Holy Spirit. You're making a strawman argument.

Free will is based on human ego and pride.

No one chooses God, there is none good, no not one.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Free will is based on human ego and pride.

No one chooses God, there is none good, no not one.

You conflate "choose" with "obey". All backsliding, complacent believers choose God in their words and thoughts but obey the evil spirits of the world in their actions, only true and faithful believers choose AND obey God by the power of the Holy Spirit. Think about Peter who swore to die for the Lord and then denied Him three times.

 

[electedbyhim]

You conflate "choose" with "obey". All lukewarm, complacent believers choose God in their words and thoughts but obey the evil spirits of the world in their actions, only true and faithful believers choose AND obey God by the power of the Holy Spirit.

They can only choose to obey after the Lord regenerates them.

Unbelievers are dead in their sin and cannot choose salvation.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

They can only choose to obey after the Lord regenerates them.

Unbelievers are dead in their sin and cannot choose salvation.

We all started off as unbelievers. God has no grandchildren, faith is not in the genes, it must be passed from generation to generation like a baton.

 

[electedbyhim]

We all started off as unbelievers. God has no grandchildren, faith is not in the genes, it must be passed from generation to generation like a baton.

One has to be regenerated to have faith that is a gift from God.

Faith does not come from humans.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

One has to be regenerated to have faith that is a gift from God.

Faith does not come from humans.

Nonetheless, sound doctrines are taught by humans. Whether the ears receive or reject, that's up to God.

"You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up." (Deut. 6:7)

 

[electedbyhim]

Nonetheless, sound doctrines are taught by humans. Whether the ears receive or reject, that's up to God.

"You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up." (Deut. 6:7)

So you agree the unregenerate cannot seek God?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So you agree the unregenerate cannot seek God?

Neither you nor I get to decide who's regenerated and who's not. You don't seek God, God seeks you.

 

[electedbyhim]

Neither you nor I get to decide who's regenerated and who's not. You don't seek God, God seeks you.

I never said that. Who said anything about who decides who is regenerated.

What are you going on about?

 

[Fastfredy0]

If God does, then we do, for we are made in God's image.

There is no biblical verse to affirm that statement. There are only 2 or 3 verses saying how old being is an image of God and FREE WILL is not one of them. Most people can't even distinguish between man's will and Free Will.

If I had a nickel for every time someone make a statement that "X" must be true because it is true of God and we were made in the image of God I'd be rich.

Man must be all knowing because he is made in the image of God
Man must be immutable because he is made in the image of God
Man must have free will because he is made in the image of God

... all unfounded assumptions

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I never said that. Who said anything about who decides who is regenerated.

What are you going on about?

You keep passing judgements with the labels "regenerated" and "unregenerated", while I despise this kind of black and white thinking. In the parable of the sowere, there are FOUR kinds of soils representing four kinds of spiritual conditions. The first one, the stony ground, immediately rejects the seed of the gospel; the fourth one, the fertile ground, swallows it and slowly nurture it, it may take a long time for the seed to grow its root before it sprouts.

But what about the other two? The shallow ground and the thorny ground? According to a glass-half-empty conclusion, those are fake Christians, they're never saved and never will be; according to a glass-half-full conclusion, though, those are the vast majority of the mission field, shallow ground can be tilled, thorny ground can be weeded, their conditions are not permanent. Here it seems like you're the one with a glass-half-empty conclusion, I'm the one with a glass-half-full conclusion.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The reformed believe we're incapable of choice

Ridiculous. I am reformed and I choose to respond to your statement.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is no biblical verse to affirm that statement. There are only 2 or 3 verses saying how old being is an image of God and FREE WILL is not one of them. Most people can't even distinguish between man's will and Free Will.

If I had a nickel for every time someone make a statement that "X" must be true because it is true of God and we were made in the image of God I'd be rich.

Man must be all knowing because he is made in the image of God
Man must be immutable because he is made in the image of God
Man must have free will because he is made in the image of God

... all unfounded assumptions

Did anybody order God to create the heavens and the earth? Was God under any pressure to create the heavens and the earth? Why did God do it if not out of free will? "Image" is not just physical resemblance, it means character, our creativity is inherited from God. If there's no free will, then we're all programmed robots, would you rather believe in that?

 

[Fastfredy0]

No one chooses God

I choose God .... but the cause of my choosing was God; my choosing Him was an effect.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Did anybody order God to create the heavens and the earth? Was God under any pressure to create the heavens and the earth? Why did God do it if not out of free will? "Image" is not just physical resemblance, it means character, our creativity is inherited from God.

Not relevant to my post which was asking you to give a verse saying we have Free Will and my pointing out that people abuse that idea that man was MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD to justify EDIT

If there's no free will, then we're all programmed robots, would you rather believe in that?

Well, I imagine you can't or won't even define what you mean by Free Will so I don't know what you are talking about.