IS FREE WILL AN ATTRIBUTE GOD GIFTED TO MAN?

[Carry_Your_Name]

Not relevant to my post which was asking you to give a verse saying we have Free Will and my pointing out that people abuse that idea that man was MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD to justify dumb ideas like Free Willyism.

Then how do you define "image"? Is it about character and representative? If you're tending some business on behalf of your company, family or community, then in biblical language, you're bearing the image of your company, family or community. "Free will" is just a part of this role, but not all of it.

Well, I imagine you can't or won't even define what you mean by Free Will so I don't know what you are talking about.

You're right that I won't, I respectfully yield to the mod's definition:

Biblical free will just means the ability to make a decision between two moral choices without any outside force impeding your will.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Then how do you define "image"? Is it about character and representative? If you're tending some business on behalf of your company, family or community, then in biblical language, you're bearing the image of your company, family or community.

Image of God means there is some similarity ... but the bible only mentions 2 or 3 similarities and anything else you dream up like Free Will is just that; a blind assumption. I.E. I take a picture/image of you .... don't assume the image can type or talk.

Re: Well, I imagine you can't or won't even define what you mean by Free Will so I don't know what you are talking about.

You're right that I won't, I respectfully yield to the mod's definition:

Biblical free will just means the ability to make a decision between two moral choices without any outside force impeding your will.

It's an obtuse/useless definition as it basically is the same as the definition of a person's will save for some reason it only deals with "moral matters".
So, if that's your definition ... I concur. It's obvious that people have Free Will by your definition that it's not worth discussing further. EVERYONE agree that people make moral choices ... like dah!

Aside: there are several definitions of Free Will but intellectually deeper discussions go into the cause of why one chooses to do "X" or "Y" and not a shallow surface definition as proposed above.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Image of God means there is some similarity ... but the bible only mentions 2 or 3 similarities and anything else you dream up like Free Will is just that; a blind assumption. I.E. I take a picture/image of you .... don't assume the image can type or talk.

But if this picture/image is on camera, then this picture/image can surely talk, can't it? The bible only mentions that God made man in his image, and at the end, the Beast forces everyone to conform to the Beast's image. We all read the same bible, it's up to us to understand and decide what "image" really means. If you think it's only limited to physical similarities, then that's just skin deep understanding, that much is for sure.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Re: Well, I imagine you can't or won't even define what you mean by Free Will so I don't know what you are talking about.

It's an obtuse/useless definition as it basically is the same as the definition of a person's will save for some reason it only deals with "moral matters".
So, if that's your definition ... I concur. It's obvious that people have Free Will by your definition that it's not worth discussing further. EVERYONE agree that people make moral choices ... like dah!

I've given my definition in post #112, it's all about human agency, which probably doesn't matter to you. That's why I brought up the mod's definition, which doesn't seem to matter to you either.

As a matter of fact, though, you're here at this forum posting a reply to my post without anybody telling you to do so, that's a conscious choice made out of free will. You stated this in post #137.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ridiculous. I am reformed and I choose to respond to your statement.

You didn't choose to respond.
God decreed that you would.

And, so, you wanted to.

Easy.

That's compatibilist free will.
Unfortunately, you still don't grasp libertarian free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

Free will gives you power to overcome sin? That is not what is taught in the Bible.

I could be wrong though because humans have such a high-esteem and self-importance of themselves that they could believe such nonsense.

So in your theology, man is sovereign. Got it.

Free will makes God dependent on humans and their choices. That is a doctrine of demons.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

You know Elected,
It would be nice if the reformed took the time to really understand what non cals believe instead of throwing out nonsense to them so as to avoid responding to real issues.

I think this is called strwmanning.

Is this done because you don't have real answers to our posts?

No christian believes what you've posted above.
None.

 

[GodsGrace]

Image of God means there is some similarity ... but the bible only mentions 2 or 3 similarities and anything else you dream up like Free Will is just that; a blind assumption. I.E. I take a picture/image of you .... don't assume the image can type or talk.

Re: Well, I imagine you can't or won't even define what you mean by Free Will so I don't know what you are talking about.

Biblical free will just means the ability to make a decision between two moral choices without any outside force impeding your will.

It's an obtuse/useless definition as it basically is the same as the definition of a person's will save for some reason it only deals with "moral matters".
So, if that's your definition ... I concur. It's obvious that people have Free Will by your definition that it's not worth discussing further. EVERYONE agree that people make moral choices ... like dah!

Aside: there are several definitions of Free Will but intellectually deeper discussions go into the cause of why one chooses to do "X" or "Y" and not a shallow surface definition as proposed above.

I was going to post a snoring emoji but it's not permitted here.

Why not learn what libertarian free will is.
You can still deny it exists, but at least you'll get some credit for understanding what it is.

Instead of this tirade of yours thats been going on since you got here??

Maybe you could actually join in the conversation instead of wasting time on the meaning?

Or is that the objective?

 

[electedbyhim]

There is no biblical verse to affirm that statement. There are only 2 or 3 verses saying how old being is an image of God and FREE WILL is not one of them. Most people can't even distinguish between man's will and Free Will.

If I had a nickel for every time someone make a statement that "X" must be true because it is true of God and we were made in the image of God I'd be rich.

Man must be all knowing because he is made in the image of God
Man must be immutable because he is made in the image of God
Man must have free will because he is made in the image of God

... all unfounded assumptions

Excellent.

 

[electedbyhim]

You know Elected,
It would be nice if the reformed took the time to really understand what non cals believe instead of throwing out nonsense to them so as to avoid responding to real issues.

I think this is called strwmanning.

Is this done because you don't have real answers to our posts?

No christian believes what you've posted above.
None.

My point is simple.

Anyone who believes that they can choose salvation, is sovereign in their own eyes. This is human self righteous, egotistical pride.

You can assume as you like what I post, this is your right and opinion. No hard feelings.

I used to have the Arminian view where I sat on the throne. I never understood it, or saw it from a Biblical perspective.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no biblical verse to affirm that statement. There are only 2 or 3 verses saying how old being is an image of God and FREE WILL is not one of them. Most people can't even distinguish between man's will and Free Will.

If I had a nickel for every time someone make a statement that "X" must be true because it is true of God and we were made in the image of God I'd be rich.

Man must be all knowing because he is made in the image of God
Man must be immutable because he is made in the image of God
Man must have free will because he is made in the image of God

... all unfounded assumptions

Wow.
WHO thinks he is all-knowing?
WHO thinks he is immutable?

NO ONE I've ever come across.

ALL of Christianity believes we have free will EXCEPT for the reformed.

Another strawman.

 

[GodsGrace]

My point is simple.

Anyone who believes that they can choose salvation, is sovereign in their own eyes. This is human self righteous, egotistical pride.

I agree that man is egotistical and proudful.
The two attributes that lead to the most sins.

But to say that Christians believe they are sovereign is not correct.
All Christians believe that ONLY GOD is sovereign.
And,,,,we all believe He is sovereign.

We do, however, have a choice as to whether or not we wish to be saved.
Isn't this why Jesus appeared as a human?
To be the final revelation,
To teach us how to become saved,
To teach us how to belong to the Kingdom of God here, right now?

If these were not the reasons, why did Jesus preach for over 3 years?

Jesus said that we MUST BE BORN AGAIN.
Jesus said REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM IS NEAR.

Why give such directions IF He knew that it was not up to man to decide if he WANTED to be saved?
This does not mean that man saves himself...
From the OT God's word states that HE HIMSELF will save us.
Jesus is God.
HE saved us by buying us back from satan.

But HOW do we tap into that salvation?
THIS is the important question.

IF God chooses those that will be saved, there was no reason at all for Jesus to present Himself to man,
or even to have to die.

You can assume as you like what I post, this is your right and opinion. No hard feelings.

I used to have the Arminian view where I sat on the throne. I never understood it, or saw it from a Biblical perspective.

Grace and peace to you.

When you were a non-cal (not every Christian is arminian) what exactly made you think YOU were on the throne?
Maybe this mistaken belief led you to Calvinism.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're right that I won't, I respectfully yield to the mod's definition:

Such an easy explanation.
But, of course, Fastfredy0 won't accept it.
Better to debate the meaning instead of biblical context.
Ignore the debate altogether....

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, it is a command for everybody. But there is a big problem:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A natural man does not receive (to receive favorably, give ear to, embrace, make one's own, approve, not to reject) this command.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

He is not subject to. the law of God.
Subject = to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience
Law = anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

But then, who can be saved if they cannot obey the command to repent?

Why would Jesus give a COMMAND, if no one has the ABILITY to obey?
Sounds like He's just wasting His breath.
And I doubt Jesus did that.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

Even when you were dead in sin and unable to obey, He made you alive.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
see = get knowledge of, understand, perceive

It's pretty clear to those willing to hear. You must be born again first by the unconditional power of God.

Please post a verse that states a person must be born again in order to be born again.

 

[GodsGrace]

Iconoclast

Are you ever going to reply to my post no. 105?
No.
As usual.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, you are doing this. The Law you are speaking about is the Old Testament sacrificial laws. We are not under that.

But we are under God's moral commandments to love God and love our neighbors.
Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER," "YOU SHALL NOT STEAL," "YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," "YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus to be saved.
This is a command from God. This makes it a "law" (any written or positive rule or collection of rules prescribed under the authority of the state or nation) or by God.

The natural man cannot and will not do this. You must get the idea out of your head of being saved by "doing something." This is salvation by works - doing something.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

works = Strong's G2041 - ergon
1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
A. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

When Paul says "not of works" he is not saying "not of obeying the OT sacrificial laws. He is saying not of doing anything by your own power that you can boats of. Like: Ha, ha, I was saved because I did something that you didn't do.

You will end up saying I was saved by the sovereign grace of God while I was still dead in my trespasses and sin and unable to call on Him He made me willing.

Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Statutes = Strong's H2706 - ḥōq = statute, ordinance, something prescribed, specific decree (like call on the name of Jesus)

Whatever,
I believe I replied to all of the above in my post no. 100

I agree with all of the above.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Such an easy explanation.
But, of course, Fastfredy0 won't accept it.
Better to debate the meaning instead of biblical context.
Ignore the debate altogether....

I have some misgivings on this definition, actually. You described an ideal condition where there's no "outside force impeding your will", but there're always outside forces or influences impeding your will, and sometimes you're not even aware of it.

 

[electedbyhim]

I agree that man is egotistical and proudful.
The two attributes that lead to the most sins.

But to say that Christians believe they are sovereign is not correct.
All Christians believe that ONLY GOD is sovereign.
And,,,,we all believe He is sovereign.

We do, however, have a choice as to whether or not we wish to be saved.
Isn't this why Jesus appeared as a human?
To be the final revelation,
To teach us how to become saved,
To teach us how to belong to the Kingdom of God here, right now?

If these were not the reasons, why did Jesus preach for over 3 years?

Jesus said that we MUST BE BORN AGAIN.
Jesus said REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM IS NEAR.

Why give such directions IF He knew that it was not up to man to decide if he WANTED to be saved?
This does not mean that man saves himself...
From the OT God's word states that HE HIMSELF will save us.
Jesus is God.
HE saved us by buying us back from satan.

But HOW do we tap into that salvation?
THIS is the important question.

IF God chooses those that will be saved, there was no reason at all for Jesus to present Himself to man,
or even to have to die.



When you were a non-cal (not every Christian is arminian) what exactly made you think YOU were on the throne?
Maybe this mistaken belief led you to Calvinism.

The point is, if you believe you can choose to be saved, you put yourself above God, you make yourself sovereign over the Lord.

IF God chooses those that will be saved, there was no reason at all for Jesus to present Himself to man,
or even to have to die.

I understand what you are saying. I believe He has done this to make known the riches of His glory.

The Bible teaches that man has to come to God, we see this in the Bible. The Bible also teaches that man is unable to come to God because of His sin. The Bible also teaches that God's children are chosen, the elect, predestined etc. God's word says that He gives man faith to believe as a gift from Him. Until the Lord does this, unregenerate man cannot come to saving faith in Christ.

Does this make sense?

The Trinity, Jesus being fully God and fully human makes no sense to a fallible mind. I take it on faith. This is how I see it.

I understand that we all take a view on this. Some go as far as saying that my beliefs in the Doctrines of Grace are heretical and that I am not saved.

In all honesty I am labeled a Calvinist, but never read anything by Calvin. Although it is on my list.

However, only the Lord knows my heart and I have a clear conscience on what I believe.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Just think about what makes our brain different from programmed AI, that difference is free will.

Agreed.
I do believe that, by reformed beliefs, man is nothing more than a robot.
I know this is a cliche', but it's so true.
If God decreed, predestinates, everything that is to happen to every person,
as Calvin states, then man is truly a robot - just following orders.

This would make for a bleak view of God and ourselves - His creation due to love.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have some misgivings on this definition, actually. You described an ideal condition where there's no "outside force impeding your will", but there's always outside forces or influences impeding your will, and sometimes you're not aware of it.

Every decision we make is affected by something.
But the reformed version is that God is COMPELLING us to the decision made.

If someone is holding a gun to our head, that will certainly affect our decision...coercion.

We have free will because God is not FORCING us into a decision.
It's indeed free UNLESS something is impeding it.

I think this is a very good definitionl
After reading all the stuff on this, it's the logical conclusion.

The reformed believe that God decides what a person is to decide...
THEN
God makes that person WANT to make the decision He had already decided on anyway.
So then they'll say that they WANTED to make that decision.

Pretty complicated, right?

 

[electedbyhim]

Agreed.
I do believe that, by reformed beliefs, man is nothing more than a robot.
I know this is a cliche', but it's so true.
If God decreed, predestinates, everything that is to happen to every person,
as Calvin states, then man is truly a robot - just following orders.

This would make for a bleak view of God and ourselves - His creation due to love.

I cannot agree with that the reformed is nothing but a robot.

If I make sinful decisions, that comes from myself, my flesh. Any good decision I doo comes from Holy Spirit who dwells in me. When I give to the church, I do it for the glory of God. The Lord loves a cheerful giver. I do not look at choices or decisions and say, God made me do this or God made me do that. I do not believe any reformed person believes that. I take personal responsibility for my sinful choices and decisions, I also give God all the glory for the positive good choices I make, it does not come from me but Holy Spirit.

I wonder if that makes any sense.

The difference for me, is that when I was unregenerate, any good I chose was sinful. Why you ask? Because anything that I did or chose to do that was good in the eyes of humans came from a perspective of making myself feel better or happy. It was complete pride when I did anything good. None of it was for the Glory of God. It could never be as an unsaved person.