IS FREE WILL AN ATTRIBUTE GOD GIFTED TO MAN?

[GodsGrace]

What you do is post that you agree, but one or two posts later say something that directly contradicts what you claim you agree with. You redefine terms to a point that is less than honest.
It is like a person says water is wet, you say you agree, and then two posts later you say I agree water is wet, and dry at the same time.

Please take note next time and show where I do this.
Because you say I do this, does not make it so.
It's a misunderstanding, I'm sure.

 

[GodsGrace]

EDIT all reformed people believe people make choices all the time.
Why not let reformed people say what they believe, and you stick to your non reformed carnal philosophy.


No, not at all.

You're doing what you accuse me of !

1. You say you make choices.
Could you please EXPLAIN HOW you make the choices you make if you believe God ordains, decrees, predestinates everything.

2. Reformed persons really never explain how they make a choice.


3. NOT AT ALL is referring to Romans 6:16 which states that we are slaves to the one to whom WE PRESENT OURSELVES.
Please explain how this is NOT free will.

Your saying so does not make it so.
If you present YOURSELF to something...
you are using your free will.

Unless you're reformed....then it's God MAKING YOU WANT to present yourself.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Every decision we make is affected by something.
But the reformed version is that God is COMPELLING us to the decision made.

If someone is holding a gun to our head, that will certainly affect our decision...coercion.

We have free will because God is not FORCING us into a decision.
It's indeed free UNLESS something is impeding it.

I think this is a very good definitionl
After reading all the stuff on this, it's the logical conclusion.

The reformed believe that God decides what a person is to decide...
THEN
God makes that person WANT to make the decision He had already decided on anyway.
So then they'll say that they WANTED to make that decision.

Pretty complicated, right?

Another important aspect is personal responsibility. With free will, you own the decisions you make, and you get to enjoy the reward or face the consequences, neither God nor the devil made you do it. I think maybe this is what the reformed is afraid of - you can't attribute your decisions to outside forces.

 

[electedbyHim]

Another important aspect is personal responsibility. With free will, you own the decisions you make, and you get to enjoy the reward or face the consequences, neither God nor the devil made you do it. I think maybe this is what the reformed is afraid of - you can't attribute your decisions to outside forces.

Please read post #160

 

[GodsGrace]

EDIT all reformed people believe people make choices all the time.
Why not let reformed people say what they believe, and you stick to your non reformed carnal philosophy.

Prove it.
HOW do you make choices?

 

[GodsGrace]

Another important aspect is personal responsibility. With free will, you own the decisions you make, and you get to enjoy the reward or face the consequences, neither God nor the devil made you do it. I think maybe this is what the reformed is afraid of - you can't attribute your decisions to outside forces.

Hmmm. No.
Reformed theology is based on 2 ideas.

1. Man is born totally depraved and is unable to seek after God.
Plainly refuted by scripture that actually tells us to seek God.

2. Man has no free will....
So God has to, by necessity, plan everything for each man.
Turning our existence into a huge video game and making robots out of mankind,
which God claims to love.
Would any reformed expect love from a robot? No, of course.

 

[Fastfredy0]

We all read the same bible, it's up to us to understand and decide what "image" really means.

Creating a theology based on one's tendency is dangerous. One can speculate to a degree, but not pose unsubstantiated or somewhat implied ideas as being fact.

Only 2 verses describe the meaning of the Image of God
Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new [spiritual] self who is being continually renewed in true knowledge in the image of Him who created the new self
Eph. 4:24 and put on the new self [the regenerated and renewed nature], created in God’s image, [godlike] in the righteousness and holiness of the truth"
From these verse we assume that the Image of God refers to: knowledge, righteousness and holiness .... anything else is a blind assumption/wish .... not to mention that the image of God was tarnished by Adam's sin such that now the unregenerate have Satan as their father which is contrary to the Image of God

I've given my definition in post #112, ... it's the ability to take initiative, to act ahead of time, to take control of situations instead of just passively reacting to situations with your fight or flight instinct.

Gee, should have given your definition and not someone else's ...
.... if that's your definition of Free Will then I believe everyone can "take control of situations" and can take "initative" assuming they are not brain dead. This definition I never heard before and is probably unique to you.
Aside: When most people talk about free will the FREE part refers to the reason(s) why they did X or Y ...

 

[Fastfredy0]

You didn't choose to respond.
God decreed that you would.

And, so, you wanted to.

I did choose to respond. Your statements lack clarity. Probably you meant to say: "You didn't self-determine (God had nothing to do with your decision) to respond
I can't comment further as your statement is unfounded .... you didn't explain compatibilism correctly.

Unfortunately, you still don't grasp libertarian free will.

You can't make this statement based on fact. No one has talked about Libertarian Free Will .... if Libertarian Free Will is what you agree to then you never explained your belief in should a way as to correspond to the definition of Libertarian Free Will. Your definition lack substance ... it is just the definition of one's WILL which you add the idea that it is applicable to morals; a unique position.

Libertarian Free Will is: the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volitions; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts. Indifference and therefore amorality belongs to Liberty in their notion of it, or that the mind, previous to the act of volition, be in equilibrio (equilibrium in uncertainty).

 

[Fastfredy0]

I was going to post a snoring emoji but it's not permitted here.

I think you just did by implication .... *giggle*

Wow.
WHO thinks he is all-knowing?
WHO thinks he is immutable?

You missed the point again. Unless the bible explicitly says what aspects of a human is made in the image of God it is unfounded to pick on an characteristic of God and assume we have the same characteristics. Thus one should not assume we have immutability, free will, that God uses a toilet or whatever.

 

[GodsGrace]

I cannot agree with that the reformed is nothing but a robot.

I know this.
But I would like to understand WHY you don't think so.
If God predestinates, decrees, foreordains, etc. everything,
then why do you think you're not programmed before the beginning of time?

If I make sinful decisions, that comes from myself, my flesh. Any good decision I doo comes from Holy Spirit who dwells in me

Every Christian will agree with that.

When I give to the church, I do it for the glory of God. The Lord loves a cheerful giver. I do not look at choices or decisions and say, God made me do this or God made me do that.

But do you believe God predestinated for you to give to the church?

I do not believe any reformed person believes that.

I'm not sure what you're speaking of.
Believes what?

I take personal responsibility for my sinful choices and decisions, I also give God all the glory for the positive good choices I make, it does not come from me but Holy Spirit.

Every Christian believes this.

The problem with reformed theology is that it states that God predestinates every single thing....John Piper says even the dust that floats in the air --
BUT
Somehow or other, even though God predestinates everything,,,,
it's YOU that is responsible for sinful actions.

Could you explain this?

The difference for me, is that when I was unregenerate, any good I chose was sinful. Why you ask? Because anything that I did or chose to do that was good in the eyes of humans came from a perspective of making myself feel better or happy. It was complete pride when I did anything good. None of it was for the Glory of God. It could never be as an unsaved person.

Every Christian believes the above.

I don't know if I'd say that every good deed was a sin...
I'd say that you're whole being was a sin.
Good works did nothing to save you.

 

[electedbyHim]

I know this.
But I would like to understand WHY you don't think so.
If God predestinates, decrees, foreordains, etc. everything,
then why do you think you're not programmed before the beginning of time?



Every Christian will agree with that.




But do you believe God predestinated for you to give to the church?



I'm not sure what you're speaking of.
Believes what?



Every Christian believes this.

The problem with reformed theology is that it states that God predestinates every single thing....John Piper says even the dust that floats in the air --
BUT
Somehow or other, even though God predestinates everything,,,,
it's YOU that is responsible for sinful actions.

Could you explain this?



Every Christian believes the above.

I don't know if I'd say that every good deed was a sin...
I'd say that you're whole being was a sin.
Good works did nothing to save you.

The problem with reformed theology is that it states that God predestinates every single thing....John Piper says even the dust that floats in the air --
BUT
Somehow or other, even though God predestinates everything,,,,
it's YOU that is responsible for sinful actions.

Could you explain this?

Piper is correct.

And it is completely Biblical.

Why is is a problem if God ordains every single thing that comes to pass?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Creating a theology based on one's tendency is dangerous. One can speculate to a degree, but not pose unsubstantiated or somewhat implied ideas as being fact.

Only 2 verses describe the meaning of the Image of God
Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new [spiritual] self who is being continually renewed in true knowledge in the image of Him who created the new self
Eph. 4:24 and put on the new self [the regenerated and renewed nature], created in God’s image, [godlike] in the righteousness and holiness of the truth"
From these verse we assume that the Image of God refers to: knowledge, righteousness and holiness .... anything else is a blind assumption/wish .... not to mention that the image of God was tarnished by Adam's sin such that now the unregenerate have Satan as their father which is contrary to the Image of God

Doesn't that "knowledge" include the knowledge of good and evil? If you use the bible to interpret the bible, then that knowledge is none other than the fruit of the forbidden tree, isn't it? Then a choice has to be made, and free will is involved. The image of God was tainted by sin because Adam made the wrong choice.

Aside: When most people talk about free will the FREE part refers to the reason(s) why they did X or Y ...

That's called "motive" or "excuse", not free will.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hmmm. No.
Reformed theology is based on 2 ideas.

1. Man is born totally depraved and is unable to seek after God.
Plainly refuted by scripture that actually tells us to seek God.

2. Man has no free will....
So God has to, by necessity, plan everything for each man.
Turning our existence into a huge video game and making robots out of mankind,
which God claims to love.
Would any reformed expect love from a robot? No, of course.

That sounds like a Debbie Downer full of self pity. That's not the attitude God expects his people to have.

 

[electedbyHim]

You keep passing judgements with the labels "regenerated" and "unregenerated", while I despise this kind of black and white thinking. In the parable of the sowere, there are FOUR kinds of soils representing four kinds of spiritual conditions. The first one, the stony ground, immediately rejects the seed of the gospel; the fourth one, the fertile ground, swallows it and slowly nurture it, it may take a long time for the seed to grow its root before it sprouts.

But what about the other two? The shallow ground and the thorny ground? According to a glass-half-empty conclusion, those are fake Christians, they're never saved and never will be; according to a glass-half-full conclusion, though, those are the vast majority of the mission field, shallow ground can be tilled, thorny ground can be weeded, their conditions are not permanent. Here it seems like you're the one with a glass-half-empty conclusion, I'm the one with a glass-half-full conclusion.

You may assume and despise all you like.

The parable of the sower are 4 types of heart condition of the hearers. Four types of people.

Only the 4th soil (Matt. 13:23) was truly saved. The first 3 were never saved and never can be.

Only 2 types of people in the world. Children of God, the regenerate and children of satan, the unregenerate.

 

[electedbyHim]

That sounds like a Debbie Downer full of self pity. That's not the attitude God expects his people to have.

The Reformed

You know Elected,
It would be nice if the reformed took the time to really understand what non cals believe instead of throwing out nonsense to them so as to avoid responding to real issues.

I think this is called strwmanning.

Is this done because you don't have real answers to our posts?

No christian believes what you've posted above.
None.

This makes no sense.

 

[electedbyHim]

I know this.
But I would like to understand WHY you don't think so.
If God predestinates, decrees, foreordains, etc. everything,
then why do you think you're not programmed before the beginning of time?



Every Christian will agree with that.




But do you believe God predestinated for you to give to the church?



I'm not sure what you're speaking of.
Believes what?



Every Christian believes this.

The problem with reformed theology is that it states that God predestinates every single thing....John Piper says even the dust that floats in the air --
BUT
Somehow or other, even though God predestinates everything,,,,
it's YOU that is responsible for sinful actions.

Could you explain this?



Every Christian believes the above.

I don't know if I'd say that every good deed was a sin...
I'd say that you're whole being was a sin.
Good works did nothing to save you.

What is food works motivated by in the unregenerate?

Dou you really believe it is to do something kind?

Is there not a selfish or prideful motive behind it?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You may assume and despise all you like.

The parable of the sower are 4 types of heart condition of the hearers. Four types of people.

Only the 4th soil (Matt. 13:23) was truly saved. The first 3 were never saved and never can be.

Only 2 types of people in the world. Children of God, the regenerate and children of satan, the unregenerate.

If so, nobody can be regenerated, we’re all bound on a highway to hell, as we were all unregenerated at birth as “children of Satan”. There were only two types of people at the end, but until the end, the unregenerated always have a chance to be regenerated.

 

[Fastfredy0]

the unregenerated always have a chance to be regenerated.

God knows all things. There is NO CHANCE in the immutable mind of God; it's a done deal.
Eph. 1:4 For He chose us in Him [we did not chose Him] before the foundation of the world [when we were nothing] to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined [predetermined] us for adoption.

Of course, if you're an R.C. maybe your buddies and pray and donate $$$$ to get you to heaven with the help of Mary of course.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

God knows all things. There is NO CHANCE in the immutable mind of God; it's a done deal.
Eph. 1:4 For He chose us in Him [we did not chose Him] before the foundation of the world [when we were nothing] to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined [predetermined] us for adoption.

Of course, if you're an R.C. maybe your buddies and pray and donate $$$$ to get you to heaven with the help of Mary of course.

That's talking about a fixed number of spots for His chosen people, that doesn't specify who's "regenerated" and who's not. Yes, God knows all things, but I don't, and neither do you. An unbeliever can be sanctified through their spouse who's a believer, and so can their children, no $$$ required, that debunks your "done deal" argument.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev. 6:9-11)

To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. (1 Cor. 7:12-14)

And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” (Acts. 10:13-15)

 

[electedbyHim]

If so, nobody can be regenerated, we’re all bound on a highway to hell, as we were all unregenerated at birth as “children of Satan”. There were only two types of people at the end, but until the end, the unregenerated always have a chance to be regenerated.

And God has predestined those people from the beginning.