Is God finished with Israel?

[Relic]

.

As per another thread that was in the midst of being derailed... Here is the posting for further discussion on this matter:

jasoncran wrote:
tell that to the jews then yourself as they see otherwise,

Drew wrote:

Well of course they see otherwise.

But for those of us who look to the Scriptures, the case is pretty clear - as of the Cross, God is "finished" with the nation of Israel. Now please do not misrepresent me - this is not a statement that "Jews are second class citizens", it is merely a statement that God makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile, as of the cross.

.

 

[Joe67]

Re: Is God finished with Israel? (Drew thinks He is)

Not only is he finished with Israel.

He is finished with institutional Christianity and its image to the twelve tribes with their 7 day weekly cycle like 7 heads of wisdom, 10 laws like 10 horns, and their golden crowns of 10% tithe enforced by hanging on the horns.

So He now makes no distinction between Jewish and Christian in the institutional process. The veil of deceit has been torn away. Both were God given to teach what he is not. Let us not curse the evil that God has ordained. Joab and Judas have to do their work of betrayal so we can see the true character of greed hidden behind the mask of God given worship. The worship of the Lord is good and better and best of all, but vain deceit and voluntary humility in the name of Jesus and God will be exposed through those with iron teeth who stomp the residue/remnant/elect underfoot.

The times of the gentiles is finishing and we are now entering the dividing of time, cutting the work short in righteousness. The earth is laboring. She is soon to disclose her slain. Mother earth, who is in bondage with her children is being handed over to Satan for the torment of our flesh, that our spirits may be saved in the day of Jesus Christ, the man who God ordained and raised from the dead.

The kingdom is now being handed over to the father for the discipline/chastening of the elect to bring forth the fruit of the earth. Let us patiently wait for it. The vision will not tarry, though it tarries, yet it will not tarry, it will come. Without the vision we will perish. Without the vision we will not repent again. The Father will perfect his elect through suffering in the image of Jesus.

Yes, we must needs repent a mature repentance. Repentance in the elementary principles of Christ is good, but we must not only be forgiven, we need to gain the victory over the wicked one and then go on to understanding in knowing him who is from the beginning.

Let us not draw back to perdition when the Lord shakes not only the earth but also the heavens.

Your servant and brother in Jesus our Lord,
Joe

 

[Vic C.]

What in God's Good Creation are you trying to say Joe?

 

[toddm]

What in God's Good Creation are you trying to say Joe?

Phewww...I thought I was the only one! haha

 

[jasoncran]

care to restate that one joe, it was written in english but i didnt understand the idea of it.

as for the jews one could look to the apostle paul and romans 9.

jews arent better than the gentiles but the lord gave them the promise and he walked through the hewn heffer, not abraham therefore he cant break his own promise.

 

[destiny]

No, God is not through with Israel! This is a prophetic word for the Jews that fulfills Romans 11:26. It will take place before Israel is totally annihilated by her enemies:

Zechariah:
12 This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,†declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

6 “On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

Mourning for the One They Pierced

10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

 

[Joe67]

More of the rest of the story.

Zech 14:1-2
:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. KJV

Is this symbolical of the conflict of law against grace; or is it literal, as we are, in the flesh?

Joe

 

[Nick]

I believe that the people of Israel, while they might have been the chosen nation before the cross, I don't think so now. As it says in the beginning of 1 Peter, we are a royal priesthood, a holy nation with an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. The cross is for Jews and Gentiles. We are all one and the same now.

 

[sheshisown]

:waving In Romans chapter 11 Paul shows us that God set aside Israel for a time, in order that grace might do its work among the Gentiles,

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 11:1-5

So God has completely set aside the flesh, the fallen nature, what we are by human nature, so that we might learn what God will do for and through us. When we freely admit it, even we the royal priesthood, this christian holy nation (now grafted into the Vine in which Isreal are the original branches) can do nothing WITHOUT Christ.

That is when we learn that we can do all things through him who strengthens us. Faith is the process of this, and it will never be any different. No matter how long we live as Christians, we will ourselves never become any better or any more able to serve Christ, apart from simple dependence upon Him. It is always and only Christ working in us which accomplishes our Father's will. :yes

Pride, then, is our greatest temptation and our cruelest enemy! Will the church born out of the blood of Christ ~a Jew~ replace God's people by whom Christ entered the world to save it? Would God do a switcheroo on His own childen of Isreal? Will God NOT be able to KEEP His promises to them? Let us NEVER say so~ oh be careful my fellow inheriters of God's MOST awesome grace.

Some day even our flesh will serve God by his grace. Jesus Christ will be rewarded with EVERY single member of His inheritance! Not one soul will be lost! :heart In the day when creation is freed from its bondage to sin and the sons of God (the Sons made up of ONE body who are neither Jew nor Gentile male nor female, yet made up of both!) We His own will stand forth in resurrection bodies! Then even that which was once rejected and cursed will be made to fulfill the promises which are God's purpose to fulfill to demonstrate His mighty power! This is all illustrated by God's treatment of Israel. . . Which really helps us understand better God's description of His nature at the close of chapter 11... see verse 33...

O, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! :amen

sheshisown~ BTW~ Great post Destiny!

 

[veteran]

In Jeremiah 31, God declared that if one could stop the ordinances of His creation, then the seed of Israel would no longer exist. In other words, God has declared the seed of Israel will exist forever, and that includes His promises to them that have carried into the New Covenant Jesus Christ also. The problem is Christ's enemies do not want believers to see just how those promises to Israel are in effect on earth with The Gospel and among those in Christ Jesus.

That Israelite remnant of Romans 11:1-5 is specifically about the flesh seed of Israel that are in Christ Jesus, a remnant according to the election of Grace.

When we look at the how the western Christian nations were established, and their taking The Gospel to all other nations on earth (which is their job), what makes one think that has not involved the seed of Israel? And I'm not specifically talking about Jews, (though it does include Jews that believe on Christ Jesus.)

Have my brethren been deceived with the false teaching that only Jews are Israelites? I've long had a feeling that our Heavenly Father is somewhat hiding understanding of the history of the old kingdom of Israel being split into two separate kingdoms, each with their own king and having went to war against each other, literally becoming two separate nations. Yet that history is clearly written starting in 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17. Why won't believers today read that and understand?

Here's a type of line history order about what I'm talking about...

1. Solomon took many wives of the nations, and he allowed them to bring in their nation's idols into Israel.
2. God's punishment for that was to "rent" the kingdom of Israel, but in the days of Solomon's son Rehoboam.
3. God sent His prophet to Jeroboam, an Ephramite of the "house of Joseph" which Solomon had put in charge over the many of the northern tribes of Israel. Jeroboam was offered "ten tribes" to rule over in the northern lands, where the majority of Israelites dwelt.
4. God said He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem for the sake of Jerusalem and His servant David. That's the tribe of Judah.
5. When Solomon's son Rehoboam became king of Judah in Jerusalem (of the house of David), the ten tribes came to him to ask him to lighten the burdens Solomon had put on them. Rehoboam refused, and said he'd increase the burdens even more.
6. Rehoboam sent his ambassador to the northern tribes, and they killed him.
7. The ten tribes in the north then setup Jeroboam (house of Joseph) as their king at Samaria in the northern lands.
8. Rehoboam (king of Judah at Jerusalem) gathered the tribe of Judah, and the tribe of Benjamin, to make war and bring the ten tribes back into one kingdom again. Only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin were with him.
9. God sent word to Rehoboam (of Judah) to not war against the ten tribes, for the split was of Him.
10. So Jeroboam (house of Joseph, from his son Ephraim) became king at Samaria over the ten tribes, and they became known as the "house of Israel" thereafter in God's Word. From this point of history forward (even today), the ten tribes are labeled as the "house of Israel" in God's Word.
11. Rehoboam (king of Judah) reigned in Jerusalem, with only two tribes joined under him, the tribe of Judah, and the tribe of Benjamin. His kingdom at Jerusalem-Judea became known as the "house of Judah" in God's Word thereafter.
12. Jeroboam (king of Israel, ten tribes only) set up common priests of the people in his kingdom, and he made two golden calf idols for the then tribes to worship in the north, to keep them from going down to Jerusalem fearing they would join with the king of Judah's kingdom, and make him stronger.
13. Because the Levites who only were to provide worship for the people of Israel, were not allowed to do their duty among the ten tribes, they migrated south to Jerusalem and joined with Judah and Benjamin at Jerusalem. The "house of Judah" then became 3 tribes, as it is still today.
14. Both kingdoms continued, each with a lineage of their own kings, and each kingdom held war against each other.
15. Then because of what Jeroboam (king of Israel over ten tribes) did with the calf idols, He brought the king of Assyria upon the northern kingdom (house of Israel), and in stages took them ALL out of the land, captive to Assyria and the cities of the Medes. They did not return.
16. Then the king of Assyria took peoples from five different provinces around Babylon, each that worshipped their own pagan god, and placed them in the northern lands where the ten tribes had dwelt. These became the Samaritans. They were not of the seed of Israel.
17. Then around 120 after this, the house of Judah at Jerusalem also fell away from God, and He brought the king of Babylon upon them, and took the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi captive to Babylon. It was to last 70 years. The king of Babylon destroyed the city of Jerusalem and Solomon's temple. Then ten tribes were still scattered in captivity.
18. After the 70 years captivity, a small remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and very few of Levi, returned to Jerusalem to rebuild it and the second temple. The largest part of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi remained in Babylon of their own will, but would be further scattered through the nations like the ten tribes were.
19. The returning house of Judah to Jerusalem began to officially use the title of Jew, including all the non-Israelite inhabitants of the lands around Jerusalem.
20. The ten tribes were not recorded as returning to the lands of Israel, and never have to this day, but have become 'lost' to the world. They made up the majority of the number of Israelites, from ten tribes.
21. Archaeological records do exist, like the Behistun Rock in modern day Iraq, to show the captivity of the ten tribes there. They lost their Israelite heritage.
22. God said in Amos 9 that He will sift the seed of the house of Israel (ten tribes) like corn through a sieve, and not one grain would fall upon the ground. It means HE knows where the ten tribes are scattered to even today, and has promised to bring them back to their original inheritance of the land in final, under Christ Jesus.

So just because a lot of people today think only the Jews are Israelites, that's not actually true per the histories in God's Word, and the archaeological history that stands a proof. The ten tribes did not take the name 'Jew'. The word Jew, per the Jewish historian Josephus, said that title comes from the sole tribe of Judah. It became an appeallation only for the tribes of the "house of Judah", the southern kingdom at Jerusalem of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

The covenants of promises God gave to Israel are part of The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul confirms that in Ephesians 2. Those promises involve 1) plenty of corn and wine, put for God given possession of great natural resources and wealth, 2) controlling the gates of their enemies on earth, meaning even the going and coming of their enemies, and 3) an everlasting seed to sit upon the throne of David unto all generations, 4) great number of physical seed, as many as the sands of the sea and stars of the sky. Believe it not, those promises involve Christ's Gospel. But where?

In Romans 9, Apostle Paul mentioned that those of Israel, are not all of Israel. That those of the Promise are counted for the seed. That's about spiritual seed, believers of both Israelite and Gentile on The Savior Jesus Christ. Some try to use that to replace the literal seed of Israel, that remnant election of Romans 11:1-5, but it won't work. The promise of great number of seed has always been part of God's Birthright Promise to literal Israel, even from the beginning.

So if that's part of the New Covenant, which it is, where could those promises have been established after Christ's Resurrection? Primarily among the Christian nations in the west, and their satellite territories. And that means a literal seed of Israel, along with believing Gentiles, as one Body, what Paul called "the commonwealth of Israel" in Eph.2. And if we can see how populous the Jewish people are today, then multiply that by almost 4 for the literal seed of lost ten tribe Israelites today.

Many of the non-believing Jews will be included in that "commonwealth of Israel" one day, coming to Christ Jesus. That's one of God's promises to the seed of Israel also, joining both houses of Israel back together to their original inheritances of lands in the middleast, believing Gentiles being joined with Israel. That's what is to occur when Christ Jesus does return to this earth, as written. That is what the great gathering to Christ is really about per Scripture.

So who are the naysayers that think God has cast His people Israel away which He did foreknow? The actual ones behind that are the enemies of Christ. One deceived in ignorance can be doing their works, but there's a hidden element that's actually the cause ("workers of iniquity", and "mystery of iniquity"). When Christ returns, He will deal with those hidden elements that work against Him and His people that believe on Him.
.

 

[Cornelius]

People get very heated when this topic gets discussed, but the Bible is clear that the covenant with the Jews came to an end .

But the good news for them is that now they can still get saved in the same way that any non-Jew gets saved. By faith in the Son of God. There is simply no other way.A remnant of them will be saved , but not all of them.

Interesting fact: God decided to write the New Testament in Greek, and not to write it in Hebrew ! He wrote the New Covenant in the language of the Gentiles.

 

[Drew]

jews arent better than the gentiles but the lord gave them the promise and he walked through the hewn heffer, not abraham therefore he cant break his own promise.

No one is denying that God gave promises and does not break any promises. The real question, as I see it is this: "Is there any sense in which there are any promises, still on the table after the cross, that are specific to ethnic Jews and ethnic Jews only?".

I beleve that the answer to this is "no" - as of the cross, any "special" status for the nation of Israel is gone. One consequence of believing this is that the formation of Israel in 1948 does not constitute the fulfillment of a specific Biblical promise.

 

[seekandlisten]

People get very heated when this topic gets discussed, but the Bible is clear that the covenant with the Jews came to an end .

But the good news for them is that now they can still get saved in the same way that any non-Jew gets saved. By faith in the Son of God. There is simply no other way.A remnant of them will be saved , but not all of them.

Interesting fact: God decided to write the New Testament in Greek, and not to write it in Hebrew ! He wrote the New Covenant in the language of the Gentiles.

Sorry, I don't think God breaks his covenants or ends them. All of God's covenants will be fulfilled when He returns. Something interesting I came across the other day that I haven't had much of a chance to look into yet, but to my knowledge the Children of Israel were scattered in 600BC and during that same time frame all the religions of the 'East' or 'Orient' however they are termed came into being simultaneously. I thought this was interesting.

 

[Drew]

No, God is not through with Israel! This is a prophetic word for the Jews that fulfills Romans 11:26.

This passage is commonly cited as evidence that God still has promises on the table. And I can understand why - on a superficial reading this certainly appears to be the case.

I will not provide the relevant arguments right now, but I believe that Paul uses the term "Israel" here to denote the church, not ethic Jewry. That might seem like a dubious move on my part, but I am only following Paul. At various points, not least in the very book of Romans, Paul clearly uses "Israel-languag" to denote the Jew + Gentile church and not the nation of Israel. I am prepared to argue this point in some detail, but not right now.

 

[Drew]

Sorry, I don't think God breaks his covenants or ends them. All of God's covenants will be fulfilled when He returns.

This assertion is open to the counterargument that God has been entirely faithful to all the "special" (i.e. exclusive) promises He made to Israel, and has already fulfilled them all. If you believe that some promises to Israel will only be fulfilled when Jesus returns, then by all means please provide the relevant supporting arguments.

 

[Cornelius]

God's promises have conditions to them. He had conditions with Israel and He has conditions with the church too.

When we do not meet the conditions, He does not have to honor the promise.

For instance. When Israel reacted in unbelief, they broke the condition and then God did not allow them to enter into the Promise Land even though He promised them He would take them there. Even Moses, did not enter.

So its a fallacy that God cannot break a promise. He does.

Hbr 3:17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?

Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?

Hbr 3:19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

 

[seekandlisten]

Sorry, I don't think God breaks his covenants or ends them. All of God's covenants will be fulfilled when He returns.

This assertion is open to the counterargument that God has been entirely faithful to all the "special" (i.e. exclusive) promises He made to Israel, and has already fulfilled them all. If you believe that some promises to Israel will only be fulfilled when Jesus returns, then by all means please provide the relevant supporting arguments.

Well, it's been a while since I looked at Israel and their promises so I don't know which one's your are talking about being fulfilled. They were driven out of their land for their disobedience but they will return to their promised land. It speaks of the 144,000 in Rev. is this not the 12 tribes of Israel? I know there are different beliefs as to who the children of Israel are. My beliefs basically being that they are the decendents of the 12 tribes, they are not the nation of Israel to my understanding.

 

[seekandlisten]

God's promises have conditions to them. He had conditions with Israel and He has conditions with the church too.

When we do not meet the conditions, He does not have to honor the promise.

For instance. When Israel reacted in unbelief, they broke the condition and then God did not allow them to enter into the Promise Land even though He promised them He would take them there. Even Moses, did not enter.

So its a fallacy that God cannot break a promise. He does.

Hbr 3:17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?

Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?

Hbr 3:19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

Well I see evidence of people being punished for disobedience I have not seen any evidence of God not fulfilling His promises?? If you are going to say God's promise to Israel was broken because of unbelief well I would have to say the 'church' is in trouble.

 

[Drew]

They were driven out of their land for their disobedience but they will return to their promised land. It speaks of the 144,000 in Rev. is this not the 12 tribes of Israel?

I do not think this 144,000 are in any sense "ethnic Jews". However, I am not prepared to argue the point right now. But, of course, those who hold the position that I hold need, at some point anyway, to offer and defend the view that these 144,000 are not ethnic Jews.

 

[follower of Christ]

If you are going to say God's promise to Israel was broken because of unbelief well I would have to say the 'church' is in trouble.

I dont know if I understand where youre coming from.
Are you saying that God never ended/broke/annulled a covenant He made ?