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Is God Immutable?

smaller said:
Good! See how easy it is to agree. :lol


No, they are NOT. It's not possible for 'US' individually or collectively to BE GOD. That is impossible unless we ARE GOD. We do not have that seat. Our seat is progressive, but limited sharing in His Spirit. It is limited by the fact of His Superiority over "all things." We are "created" which puts US in and under 'subjection' to Him Who Is Greater.



I agree. The very fact that we need our attentions drawn shows us what? Our lack.


Great. I think I'm only discussing the obvious that any believer can come into understanding of as it pertains to God and not equaling Him to any "thing" in creation or trying to make God a "subject" or "lesser" of any thing. It would generally be proposed in the realm as Divine Undefinable Sovereignty i.e. An Eternal Mystery.
Click to expand...

Thanks Smaller, we think a bit different of course. I believe that he laws and word of God is written in our heart. I believe Jesus when He said not one is good, but my Father in Heaven, but on the same token, I believe it's also possible to be perfect like the Father (Walk in all the light given you) and Come to the full stature and Measure of the Anointing (Christ) and his purpose and anointing. (Eph 4) I believe God has given us the tools to overcome walking in the dictates of the flesh.

As for Election, I believe everyone was created for his Workmanship, God sets everyone in the body according to his divine will and purpose, and all those who believed in Christ Jesus no longer have their own life, but better follow and obey Him that made us by His election and plan for us.

We can't be good on our own, but with all the tools, through the anointing, Word which transforms us, and God's correction, we can walk pleasing to Him.

Thank you for responding back.

God bless.
Mike.


Edited to remove discussion of Trinity. The material has been posted in the appropriate thread and is not lost.
 
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smaller said:
I'd suggest then that the scriptures need a rewrite to support your positions. Adam should have been inserted as an exception. But of course that's not going to happen.

Yes, God, God bound "everyone" to disobedience, exactly as the scripture says. Romans 11:32.

I don't think your positions proposals can stand the weight of scriptural scrutiny.

It is PAUL who tells us exactly, to very specific points or order, HOW Adam, the natural man was made, and does so quite succinctly in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. And this aligns perfectly with PAUL's statement of fact in Romans 11:32 as well.

What you have going on is really a story that you bought into, probably a long time ago, and all your positions are built on that faulty premise. Sorry to have to kick the legs out from under it. Had to kick that phony story out from under the same phony story line myself. Adam was made HOW PAUL SAID he was made and that's the SCRIPTURAL account, not a phony story.


God created exactly what we had then, what we have now, and what we will have going forward. I don't practice giving excuses to The Creator, trying to "protect" my petty little version of God that I concoct in my own mind, trying to exonerate Him from what exists in His creation. I see no point whatsoever in such a storyline or in such a God, uninterested, incapable, isolated, can't be engaged when it comes to the facts of evil and sin. That is not a credible story line.
Click to expand...

God doesn't need a rewrite of Scripture. Smaller seems to be making the 'very good' of Gen 1:31 (ESV) equal with the 'disobedience' of Rom 11:32 (ESV). The problem is with smaller's interpretation and not with God's Scripture.
 
smaller said:
It is only in Gods Hands, can such be seen.

But when people try to isolate and extract God from His Creation, they think "things" are good.

Strictly speaking, and answer me truthfully, IF God bound us to disobedience SO THAT we, some of us anyway, would come to know His Mercy in Christ, is God Justified by using disobedience to that end? Simple question.
Click to expand...

Is God telling us the truth when Scripture states: 'And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good' (Gen 1:31 ESV)?
 
JohnDB said:
I'm posting this question because as iron sharpens iron I'm thinking that several people here aren't understanding these concepts and absolutes about God very clearly.

So consider the following:

Is God really Immutable?
What do you think that this means?
How does God's eternity play into this aspect?
Do these two attributes really make God different from us in respect to emotional actions?
Click to expand...

JohnDB,

I think it's time to get back to the OP. Both God's immutability and eternity have been hotly contested regarding the meaning of these two attributes of God.

I'll check out the support of immutability from Scripture. Norman Geisler gives this definition in his systematic theology: 'That God is unchangeable [i.e. immutable] in His nature has solid support in biblical, historical and philosophical theology. Despite many anthropomorphic expressions, ... the Bible has clear and repeated references to God's immutability' (Geisler 2003:74). Then Geisler gives this biblical basis of God's immutability:
  • Num 23:19 (NIV)
  • 1 Sam 15:29 (NIV)
  • Ps 102:26-27 (NIV); cf. Heb 1:10-12 (NIV)
  • Mal 3:6 (NIV)
  • Rom 1:23 (NIV)
  • Heb 6:18 (NIV)
  • Heb 13:8 (NIV)
  • Titus 1:2 (NIV)
  • James 1:17 (NIV)
Geisler makes the obvious and pointed comment: 'It is clear from these verses that not only does God not change, but it is also impossible for Him to change' (Geisler 2003:75).

Isn't it amazing to worship the God is not going to change according to climate change, change of Presidency, change in marriage and family, disappointments and suffering?

Oz

Works consulted
Geisler, N 2003. Systematic theology: God, creation, vol 2. Minneapolis, Minnesota: BethanyHouse.
 
OzSpen said:
JohnDB,

I think it's time to get back to the OP. Both God's immutability and eternity have been hotly contested regarding the meaning of these two attributes of God.

I'll check out the support of immutability from Scripture. Norman Geisler gives this definition in his systematic theology: 'That God is unchangeable [i.e. immutable] in His nature has solid support in biblical, historical and philosophical theology. Despite many anthropomorphic expressions, ... the Bible has clear and repeated references to God's immutability' (Geisler 2003:74). Then Geisler gives this biblical basis of God's immutability:
  • Num 23:19 (NIV)
  • 1 Sam 15:29 (NIV)
  • Ps 102:26-27 (NIV); cf. Heb 1:10-12 (NIV)
  • Mal 3:6 (NIV)
  • Rom 1:23 (NIV)
  • Heb 6:18 (NIV)
  • Heb 13:8 (NIV)
  • Titus 1:2 (NIV)
  • James 1:17 (NIV)
Geisler makes the obvious and pointed comment: 'It is clear from these verses that not only does God not change, but it is also impossible for Him to change' (Geisler 2003:75).

Isn't it amazing to worship the God is not going to change according to climate change, change of Presidency, change in marriage and family, disappointments and suffering?

Oz

Works consulted
Geisler, N 2003. Systematic theology: God, creation, vol 2. Minneapolis, Minnesota: BethanyHouse.
Click to expand...

A. W. Tozer wrote a book on the attributes of God called "Knowledge of the Holy". In it I find a great section on this attribute. The book isn't expensive and is downloadable (I think that a free PDF exists out there too).
It isn't exactly going to be an easy read. This is '50's long sentence hard to read style. But I think you can handle it. It isn't a big book either... but you will feel like it is by the time you finish it.

Enjoy!
 
Gods Immutability:

Ephesians 1:
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Ephesians 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

The Picture of Gods Immutability is this:

Creator

all things under.

This structure changes NOT.
 
Moderator Hat on:

While forum drift is OK...the hijacking of a thread to discuss other topics is not in the interest of the OP or most who would seek to read on the topic of the OP.

Please start a new thread if there is interest in debating Trinity doctrine.
 
I'd like to say (I may be repeating...) that God cannot change.
If He did, how could we ever trust anything He taught us about himself and about how we should live our lives while here on earth.

For instance, why would Abraham have left Ur if God could have changed His mind after Abraham had made such a sacrifice?
Hebrews 11:12 Abraham considered God to be faithful to His word.

Or, why change our thought process if God could then decide it wasn't really necessary?
Romans 12:2

Wondering
 
Jesus is also the (Son of Man). That part of Christ can change his mind

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

This verse was speaking of the Father. Right? God is not a man? That is why you want to be on Christ's mercy seat. And this is why Christ is the mediator between God and man.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
 
LovethroughDove said:
Jesus is also the (Son of Man). That part of Christ can change his mind

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

This verse was speaking of the Father. Right? God is not a man? That is why you want to be on Christ's mercy seat. And this is why Christ is the mediator between God and man.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Click to expand...
In "mediator" I'm going to assume that you mean a peace negotiator...

Because in the Bible there are messengers who spoke on behalf of God... including the likes of Gabriel and The Angel of the Lord.

Blessed are the peacemakers for....
 
JohnDB said:
In "mediator" I'm going to assume that you mean a peace negotiator...

Because in the Bible there are messengers who spoke on behalf of God... including the likes of Gabriel and The Angel of the Lord.

Blessed are the peacemakers for....
Click to expand...

I'm saying, Christ came in flesh and can judge perfectly because of it.
 
LovethroughDove said:
Jesus is also the (Son of Man). That part of Christ can change his mind

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

This verse was speaking of the Father. Right? God is not a man? That is why you want to be on Christ's mercy seat. And this is why Christ is the mediator between God and man.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Click to expand...
Hi LTD
When we say that Jesus is the "Son of Man" we don't really mean this in the sense that he was born of Mary and thus a man like us. That's why it's in quotation marks. This refers back to the O.T. of the coming Messiah.
I'm not at my desk, JohnDB might want to comment on this.

So I could not agree if you are saying that Jesus could change His mind about something.
Would you have a scripture regarding this? I cannot think of any

Wondering
 
JohnDB said:
A. W. Tozer wrote a book on the attributes of God called "Knowledge of the Holy". In it I find a great section on this attribute. The book isn't expensive and is downloadable (I think that a free PDF exists out there too).
It isn't exactly going to be an easy read. This is '50's long sentence hard to read style. But I think you can handle it. It isn't a big book either... but you will feel like it is by the time you finish it.

Enjoy!
Click to expand...

John,

Thanks for the recommendation. I have the book in my library and have read it. In fact, A W Tozer was ordained with the Christian & MIssionary Alliance denomination, the same denomination in which I'm ordained.

The evidence I gave in #82 demonstrates that there is biblical evidence to prove God's immutability. He does not change.

Oz
 
LovethroughDove said:
Jesus is also the (Son of Man). That part of Christ can change his mind

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

This verse was speaking of the Father. Right? God is not a man? That is why you want to be on Christ's mercy seat. And this is why Christ is the mediator between God and man.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Click to expand...
LTD
I wanted to confirm to you that in the verse you picked, it does mean that God is not the son of a real man as in mankind.

Wondering
 
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wondering said:
Hi LTD
When we say that Jesus is the "Son of Man" we don't really mean this in the sense that he was born of Mary and thus a man like us. That's why it's in quotation marks. This refers back to the O.T. of the coming Messiah.
I'm not at my desk, JohnDB might want to comment on this.

So I could not agree if you are saying that Jesus could change His mind about something.
Would you have a scripture regarding this? I cannot think of any

Wondering
Click to expand...
I disagree. I believe Mary's egg was fertilized by the Holy Spirit. He is the Christ, Son of Man/Son of God.

The scripture I quoted earlier says, "the man, Christ Jesus". He's not man also?

The wedding in Cana. He said it wasn't his time and then did it. John 2:4-8
 
LovethroughDove said:
I'm saying, Christ came in flesh and can judge perfectly because of it.
Click to expand...

wondering said:
Hi LTD
When we say that Jesus is the "Son of Man" we don't really mean this in the sense that he was born of Mary and thus a man like us. That's why it's in quotation marks. This refers back to the O.T. of the coming Messiah.
I'm not at my desk, JohnDB might want to comment on this.

So I could not agree if you are saying that Jesus could change His mind about something.
Would you have a scripture regarding this? I cannot think of any

Wondering
Click to expand...

The reason I am bringing this up is that some people believe that a pre-incarnate Christ appeared at times in the Old Testament. Possibly the Man Joshua met with before going to Battle that said he was the commander of the army of God.

Possibly one of the three who ate a meal with Abraham...

And the list goes on.

But considering how God can move about in time as we might a room...it's a possibility.
 
LovethroughDove said:
I disagree. I believe Mary's egg was fertilized by the Holy Spirit. He is the Christ, Son of Man/Son of God.

The scripture I quoted earlier says, "the man, Christ Jesus". He's not man also?

The wedding in Cana. He said it wasn't his time and then did it. John 2:4-8
Click to expand...
I'm sorry LTD
I reread my post no.75 I added the word " not" for the son of man.
Please remove the word not. Jesus IS also the son of man as you correctly state.
 
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