Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

[savedbygrace57]

By the The Omniscience of God !

That it was God's purpose before Creation that adam would sin and bring into the world as a result both sin and death Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This must be True if we believe in the all knowing God, and that He knew fully well before He Created adam that he would sin if given the opportunity in the garden, and as God knew this perfectly, it was up to God to give adam being or not. It was not up to adam on whether or not he come into the world, but God's Sovereign prerogative ! Did adam influence God to Create him so that he could sin and bring death into the World ? Could God have made adam in such a way that he would not sin ? If God could not have done that, then how can we be sure that no one will sin in Eternal Glory, where God makes all things new ?

For adam to have being and any opportunity to sin and bring death into the world was up to God, not adam. Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

And adam, Lucifer whoever has being at all is God's work !581

 

[About the Son of God]

about

Up UNTIL the time of Adam's sin, we have no evidence against his love of God.

Jesus said if ye love me you would keep my commandments. If Adam Loved God he would have kept God's Commandment. Its pretty cut and dry. Evidence proves he did not Love God with all his heart , mind and soul as required. Deut 13:3

Again: Your statement doesn't prove that Adam failed to love God with all his heart before the event called the "fall".
It at most, indicates a later time; so you aren't answering my objection -- but substituting another.

Genesis says that the serpent was "the most subtle of God's creatures."; yet if the case is *really* cut and dry, then you can't tell me anything subtle about the temptation.

Or again, what exactly did Eve "SAY" to Adam; Please quote me the words, if you have understanding of *exactly* what she said.

I have answered your objections now. Essentially you are arguing double predestination to do evil.
I don't believe that. I agree with Deborah and others, man had free will to make a choice.

But I'll strengthen my position:
In the case of Adam; during the interrogation he accused his wife of giving him the fruit -- and God did not say to Adam "Because you didn't love me with all your heart" or anything along those lines at all -- but God first interrogates the woman, which indicates her part in the sin was important to God; then and only then, God says "Because you ate of the fruit." and not "because you failed to Love from the beginning."

Paul, one of the greatest Lawyers -- would comment in his epistles: "The WOMAN was in the transgression"
1Timothy 2:13-15

(Transgression is KNOWINGLY breaking a Law, but sin is where the accused is guilty of the crime, WHETHER OR NOT they committed it themselves.)

Do you even notice that Adam defense can be in earnest and not a lie? for you attack Adam before you even attack Satan.
It is only the devil whom had no one else to accuse at all.

Nor do you seem to have any mercy toward Adam for mitigating circumstances; although there is plenty of scriptural evidence that God did.

Jesus says, the second command is like unto the first: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
And, again, Jesus never gave the first command without the second. The two commands are inseparable.

BUT: Eve was not just a "neighbor" of Adam. She was much more, she was his own flesh and bone -- his bride -- his love; (Love DOES NO WRONG) and Eve had already eaten of the fruit -- putting Adam in ambiguous legal territory that God did not map out in his one law. (With good reason, for our salvation depends on them having children.)

 

[savedbygrace57]

Created for an Purpose !

That this World was created for an Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus involving the purposing of sin into the World, is seen here Eph 1:9-10

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Col 1:20

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

It was God's Eternal Purpose, before adam was a atom, to for His Glory, unite all things in Christ, things in Heaven and things on Earth, God purposed a cosmic reconciliation in Christ, which purpose would not have been needed if sin was not purposed to disrupt the kosmos by its entrance into the world. This is also what Eph 3:9-11 means:

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[About the Son of God]

Created for an Purpose !

It was God's Eternal Purpose, before adam was a atom, to for His Glory, unite all things in Christ, things in Heaven and things on Earth, God purposed a cosmic reconciliation in Christ, which purpose would not have been needed if sin was not purposed to disrupt the kosmos by its entrance into the world. This is also what Eph 3:9-11 means:

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The OP. of the thread is that God "Caused" evil; Whereas, you are now talking about God's purpose (the ends, or goal.).
Those are two very distinct things; discussed in various kinds of Ethics.

I have no problem with God planning to put evil events to a good use; that God's purpose in *allowing* evil is ultimately Good.
However: I do have a problem with any claim that God directly did (eg: created) a moral evil, himself, so that a good may come of it.
God can not do evil, himself, or he is not the definition of Good. But: only God *IS* good; therefore God does not DO evil. (period).
God can not lie, himself; or else Adam could be vindicated in doubting God.

In a previous post, you implied that Eve was a prophet; and that Adam did not love God with his whole heart because he "listened" to her.
Yet, you did not quote any words she spoke in prophecy. I noticed, when comparing your ideas to scripture, that there were no words to quote.

The only thing that Genesis tells us is Eve's motive; which is done by the narrator of the Story of Genesis, and not by the character -- Eve -- in the story.

In the Greek (an ancient copy of the O.T. older than Jesus himself) the phrase in Genesis 3:17 is (very precisely):
Genes 3:17 τω δε Αδαμ ειπεν οτι ηκουσας της φωνης της γυναικ-ος σου και εφαγες απο του ξυλου

But, to Adam he-said, because you listened to-the sound from/of-the woman of-you and ate....

God does not specify any "words", "logic" or future prophecy which Eve said to Adam; Therefore, I need more evidence that she was acting as a prophet.

I am even less convinced Eve was sent by God to put Adam to the test; rather than be a true wife; a "helper" and not a seductress but rather a woman who truly loves her husband.

That's why I'm going to give another alternative; The possibility of it being true is sufficient to cast in doubt the certainty of the prophecy proof; for a proof must exclude all contrary possibilities, not just a specific one.

When a dragon becomes involved in the place between a man and his woman (dragon=serpent, as in Revelation 12:7-9); That woman choosing that moment to start prophesying is not the first sound I would expect she would make (Although not impossible....); I would have to admit that Eve might have been doing something far more like this:

[video=youtube;v7lsbwm-dvc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7lsbwm-dvc[/video]

With this in mind..... :D ..... The devil's words "you will not die IF...." can be understood as a subtle and veiled threat.
But the bottom line is this: I don't think God's words to Adam about Eve indicate she was a prophet.

Oh, and I think the ending to ritterschlag is amusing.. even though it's too long a skit.... Perhaps Eve was one very disenchanted woman with her husband.

 

[savedbygrace57]

absog

The OP. of the thread is that God "Caused" evil;

He did, for an Redemptive Purpose in Christ. This World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose that required God ordaining evil into His World !

 

[About the Son of God]

You haven't proven it to me.

"Caused" is not the same as "used" or "purposed".
I'd say God is an opportunist of a divine ability; but not THE creator of Evil.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Yet, if it were predestination -- then God would speak the lie through the devil. But God doesn't do that -- for the lie is the devil's ALONE.

I suppose we just need to agree to disagree. Cheers.

 

[Brother Mike]

God did not create evil........... Wow folks. He "FOUND" iniquity in Satan. Satan was not created to be a butt head. God also had nothing to do with Adam eating that fruit, had not planned it, had no foreknowledge of it. There is not even a scripture that says God did. In fact, if you study out what God knows and does not know, you find that God had no knowledge of a lot of things concerning man and man doing evil. In other words, God does not plan or create evil. If you think he did, then we have to start marking out a whole bunch of scriptures that are no longer true.

savedbygrace57

He did, for an Redemptive Purpose in Christ. This World was Created for a Redemptive Purpose that required God ordaining evil into His World !

What your saying is that God caused a bunch of pain and suffering for thousands of years just so he could prove to us stupid humans (created in his image) that we needed Jesus for being dumb. The original plan was fellowshipping with Jesus without Him having to be crucified at the cross. God is not the God of the dead, nor the God of pain, no the God of suffering. Jesus did tell us that it is Satan the kills, steals and destroys. Lets not confuse the two.

Mike.

 

[savedbygrace57]

What your saying is that God caused a bunch of pain and suffering for
thousands of years just so he could prove to us stupid humans (created in his
image) that we needed Jesus for being dumb. The original plan was fellowshipping
with Jesus without Him having to be crucified at the cross. God is not the God
of the dead, nor the God of pain, no the God of suffering. Jesus did tell us
that it is Satan the kills, steals and destroys. Lets not confuse the
two.

God Created this World for an Redemptive Purpose in Christ !

 

[savedbygrace57]

God is Eternal, we are not !

The Eternal Purpose and decree's of God, though they find an actual fulfillment in time amongst us as time creatures, nevertheless, But God's decrees unto Him are given being before Him and real subsistence before the world began !583

 

[John 8:32]

This world was Created for the Purpose of the Cross, that the lamb slain from the foundation would be actually slain in time by hands of wicked men Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

God purposed sin and wickedness to fulfill the purpose for which this world was Created,The Cross of Christ !

God did not purpose sin and wickedness, before the world began God planned that Christ would die for the sins of man-kind. God did not cause the Jews to murder Christ else God is the one Who committed murder with wicked hands. God foreknew that if the Jews had the opportunity, they of their own will would choose to murder the Messiah. God simply used their free will choices to accomplish His own will, God did not cause anyone to do things violating their free will.

Who put Him to death?

Luk 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Luk 18:32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
Luk 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

What is the antecedant of they in verse 33? The Gentiles.

 

[Larry H]

The answerto the question is absolutely Yes ! All things are made or created for God's good pleasure

Rev 4:11

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thouhast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

If we believe in the True and Living God, then we ought know He is the FirstCause of all causes.

He created the devil for His Pleasure and ordained his activities, He created Adam for His pleasure and ordained his activitiesand the subsequent consequences.

From the time God said this Gen 1:1-3

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face ofthe deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

It put into effect this Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to thepurpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

If we do not believe this, rest in this, and we do debate it, reject it, we areno better off than an athiest ! We are as David wrote Ps 14:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, theyhave done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Honest and interesting quote. Getting back into the Garden of Eden did Adam’s disobedience cause his physical death?

And what was God’s original purpose for creating the physical universe in the first place. I believe the end justifies the means.

The later part of the question is to give Jesus, His first born, brothers and sister in the Royal Family of God.

Romans 8:28 And weknow that in ALL THINGS GOD WORKS FOR THE GOOD of those who love him, who havebeen called according to his purpose.

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the FIRSTBORN AMONG MANY BROTHERS.

30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Hebrews 2:10 In BRINGING MANY SONS TO GLORY, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Hebrews 2:13 And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again he says, "HERE AM I, AND THE CHILDREN GOD HAS GIVEN ME."

All of this could not be possible without sin entering the world. However within the frame work of this concept man has a free will to choose his own destiny.

 

[savedbygrace57]

beforetime

what was God’s original purpose for
creating the physical universe in the first place

A Redemptive Purpose centered in Chris's Death for sin !

 

[savedbygrace57]

God dishonoring view !

Those who hold the blasphemous concept that God foreknows something because He foresaw it was going to happen in the future,

Then they deny that God foreknew something based upon His own Purpose within Himself, For they say He did foreknow something because He saw it was going to happen, rather than He foreknowing something would happen because He so determined it to happen within His Own Purpose, which is a big difference.

Now for instance, some, even most say that God knew adam would sin because God foresaw it. Now understand, if God knew a thing was going to happen merely because He foresaw it would by looking into the future and seeing it occur, then God gained knowledge of a thing or was instructed concerning it by what He saw, and not by what He originally Purposed. Then we find conflict with scriptures like Is 40:14

With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

You see in this God dishonoring view, God knew something [ adams sin] the same way you and i do, but only He gained it[The Knowledge of it] much earlier by foreseeing before it actually happened. Yes this is the necessary conclusion if we deny that God purposed sin for adam from within Himself and for His Purpose !585

 

[smaller]

Nearly all believers claim 'The Divine, Sovereign.'

It's when men or sects claim to hold thee sole definitions of what those things might be or consist of that we get into trouble.

If The Sovereign is Truly Sovereign, then it is also True that Only He knows the entirety of what He Is and Consists of.

Reasoning 101.

So if that is true of him, then all other things by definition are LESS. Lacking by comparision. Insufficient by comparison.

Sin is a simple byproduct of being less than Perfection, Himself.

There is God and there are 'things.' It will always be impossible to set these next to each other and find an exact match.

Is then God the 'cause' of less than Perfection?

Of course!

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

Prov 16:4

Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Prov 16:4

The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.


Now if God made the wicked for Himself, the it stands to reason that He made their wickedness that proceeds from them, which constitutes them the wicked, for Himself. All things God made He made for His own Eternal Purpose founded on Christ and His Redemptive Blood.

Being of the wicked is not a mere secondary exception, but was part of God's primary purpose for Creation, of which He made all things unto Himself Col 1:16

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:.

That this is True is seen most strikingly in the day of my Lords Crucifixion whereby Peters states this Acts 2:22-23

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The wicked hands here were of Divine appointment as much as the Crucifixion was, and His Crucifixion was fixed and appointed before the world began 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

In fact the same greek word is used here as in Acts 2:23, letting us know that the foreknown wicked hands were as predetermined as the slaying of Christ was and of the same date !

So were the Wicked hands appointed and fixed, prearranged ? Yes their lives and persons, when and where they would live was all Divinely determined as depicted here in Acts 17:26

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

26 ·God began by making one person, and from him came all the different people [L From one, God made every nation of people] ·who live everywhere in the world [or in order to inhabit the whole earth]. God ·decided exactly [determined; or allotted] ·when [or their appointed time in history; or the seasons of their year] and ·where they must live [or the boundaries of their lands]. The EB

All the wickedness of the men and who they were, that brought Christ to the Cross to be slain, were determined by God Acts 4:26-29

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

Yes even judas was the one God made to fulfill his part in the wicked hands that were to be guilty in the slaying of Christ. No judas had no freewill choice in the matter as whether or not he be the one who should betray Christ, and be held accountable for the same, God foreknew him for the deed before the world began, Yes God made that choice for him to be the one, and behold an instance of what Prov 16:4 means ! All the Wicked were made by God to carry out His Purpose in Creation !590

 

[savedbygrace57]

Because of Mercy !

Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

We know God created this world for a redemptive purpose that involved and in which He willed sin and death into His World, thats because He purposed to show mercy upon those that fear Him in the time state, this Purpose was from Everlasting to Everlasting ! And Mercy's priority is to pass by the sins or transgression of some and treat them better than they deserve, which points are seen here Mich 7:18-20

18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.

The Mercy to Abraham [God's Elect]. This is what John the Baptist Father Zacharias refers to Lk 1:67-73

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;[The Everlasting Covenant]

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Ps 103:10

10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

God purposed before the World was Created to Manifest His Glory by being Merciful to a Elect Remnant !591

 

[savedbygrace57]

Because Of God's Own Purpose !

2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God before the World began formulated His Own Purpose from within Himself, not by foreseeing what something or someone was going to do.

Eph 1:9

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

So before the World was Created, God purposed within or in Himself to Glorify Himself and His Attributes, within the Eternal Purpose of Christ Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Which Purpose was before the World Began 2 Tim 1:9 above !

This Purpose of God gave Him the occasion to make known His Will, Wisdom, Power, Love, Mercy, Justice and Wrath.

God's Throne has always been established in Justice Ps 89:14

Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

God would not Create a World without it being an occasion to make known His Justice and Judgment, as well as Mercy !

These Attributes are all revealed in Scripture of God, through Jesus Christ Our Lord. The Wrath that God now reveals from Heaven was by His Own Purpose and Will Rom 1:18

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

No, God did not consult His Creatures to see what they would do to form His Eternal Purpose to make known His Attributes and How He would Glorify Himself through the Redemptive Purpose of Christ, by the Creation of the World !

God did not need to consult His Creation to form His Purpose in Christ, for God to say to adam as He stated to Job Job 38:4

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.592

 

[Brother Mike]

Those who hold the blasphemous concept that God foreknows something because He foresaw it was going to happen in the future,

Then they deny that God foreknew something based upon His own Purpose within Himself, For they say He did foreknow something because He saw it was going to happen, rather than He foreknowing something would happen because He so determined it to happen within His Own Purpose, which is a big difference.

Now for instance, some, even most say that God knew adam would sin because God foresaw it. Now understand, if God knew a thing was going to happen merely because He foresaw it would by looking into the future and seeing it occur, then God gained knowledge of a thing or was instructed concerning it by what He saw, and not by what He originally Purposed. Then we find conflict with scriptures like Is 40:14

That is interesting Savedbygrace57................ If God foreknew all of a individualize mans path. Then in effect God would also be responsible for that path for God hath put the spirit in man knowing if the man make it or not. That means God knew and planned Adams fall.

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Prov 16:4

The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

I read this different. What is here Good or Evil that God did not make? If something becomes evil on their own then the evil shall slay the wicked. Not that God made them evil for a purpose but was used for that purpose because they became evil.

Otherwise God would not have said I take no please in the death of the Wicked. Meaning His Divine will was that they were not wicked but since they became wicked on their own he will deal with it.

Nearly all believers claim 'The Divine, Sovereign.'

This is a true statement even by those that claim not to believe in an election Doctrine. Sovereign normally means God does what He wants, to who He wants, When He wants, despite what God said in His Word.

Mike.

 

[savedbygrace57]

bm

That is interesting Savedbygrace57

Really, what am I saying then ?

 

[Brother Mike]

Your saying God created some folk to sin. So therefore it's the will of God that people disobey him and sin. That is all your saying. OH, only those special selected people he made to sin and disobey him for God created evil for his special purpose.

Mike.