Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

[JLB]

Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ? The answer to the question is absolutely Yes ! All things are made or created for God's good pleasure Rev 4:11

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.


Turn away from teaching false doctrine.

From saying that Jesus is Michael the Archangel to now this thread!

You are a teacher of False Doctrine.


JLB

And yet we read...

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

So you believe God created sin?

Did sin enter the world by God or by man?

Did God cause Lucifer to sin?

God is Holy.

Teaching that God created sin, teaches that God tempts men to rebel against Him.

Your are not rightly dividing the word.

If Gods evil to be done to evil people or demons then He is just.

Hell is a place of evil not good. That place is for the evil.

JLB

 

[John 8:32]

Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ? The answer to the question is absolutely Yes ! All things are made or created for God's good pleasure Rev 4:11

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.


Turn away from teaching false doctrine.

From saying that Jesus is Michael the Archangel to now this thread!

You are a teacher of False Doctrine.


JLB

And yet we read...

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

So you believe God created sin?

Did sin enter the world by God or by man?

Did God cause Lucifer to sin?

God is Holy.

Teaching that God created sin, teaches that God tempts men to rebel against Him.

Your are not rightly dividing the word.

If Gods evil to be done to evil people or demons then He is just.

Hell is a place of evil not good. That place is for the evil.

JLB

Actually, I believe that God inspired Isaiah to write what he wrote. Sorry if He did not consult you first.

 

[WIP]

Let's keep this civil and discuss it to gain understanding and not use it as ammunition to put each other down. Thank you.

 

[John 8:32]

Let's keep this civil and discuss it to gain understanding and not use it as ammunition to put each other down. Thank you.

You are very correct and my apologies.

 

[John 8:32]

God is the author of all and as such "the buck stops here". He takes full responsibilty for all. He may not carry out evil but when He allows it or sometimes suggests it, He does not shirk responsibility...

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Does God create evil? In this particular passage He did through instruments of His choosing.

 

[savedbygrace57]

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things

God is the First and Primary cause of sin and death because as Per Rom 11:36

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

This verse concludes Paul's exposition of God's Purpose of Salvation for His People, which included the Mystery of the Church and the Gentiles, and Israel, National Israel's unbelief and rejection Rom 11:20

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Which unbelief is of God, His Purpose 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Matt 21:42

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

It included the grafting in of the Gentiles into the Olive Tree, all was Caused by God !

 

[Deborah13]

Actually, I believe that God inspired Isaiah to write what he wrote. Sorry if He did not consult you first.

God also wrote in Jeremiah that He did not command, neither did it enter His mind to command the children of Israel to burn there babies in fires!!!

God does not control everything, EVIL MEN do evil things, sometimes on their own, sometimes lead by satan, sometimes used by God.

 

[Deborah13]

Actually, I believe that God inspired Isaiah to write what he wrote. Sorry if He did not consult you first.

God also wrote in Jeremiah that He did not command, neither did it enter His mind to command the children of Israel to burn there babies in fires!!!

God does not control everything, EVIL MEN do evil things, sometimes on their own, sometimes lead by satan, sometimes used by God.

Because God did stop them from sinning is not the same as making them sin or causing them to sin.

 

[John 8:32]

Actually, I believe that God inspired Isaiah to write what he wrote. Sorry if He did not consult you first.

God also wrote in Jeremiah that He did not command, neither did it enter His mind to command the children of Israel to burn there babies in fires!!!

God does not control everything, EVIL MEN do evil things, sometimes on their own, sometimes lead by satan, sometimes used by God.

Do you really believe that God is NOT in control of everything?

 

[Deborah13]

Do you really believe that God is NOT in control of everything?

Yes, in this way. That God's perfect will is not always manifested here on earth. That God gave man free will and with that free will we do not always walk and behave in the will of God. God is in control ultimately in that is was His will to give men free will. So to me the Sovereignty of God is such, that His will is done in man as to free will. In His Sovereign position as the Almighty God and Creator of all things, he gave dominion over the earth to man. Did He not? We are not robots. His will is that we choose Him and His righteousness over our own will. "Your will, Lord, not mine."

So did God kill those 20 babies in CT? No, a man did exercising his free will. I do not believe that God commanded him to do that.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Deny's God is Primary Cause of all things !

To deny that God is the First and Primary cause of sin and death, its to deny that God Created this World unto Christ for an Redemptive Purpose, and therefore He Caused and Purposed that adam after creating him would disobey His command and bring about the consequences of sin and death, that they enter into His World for that Purpose.

Its not as religionists tell us that God formed His Eternal Purpose of Redemption of Christ because He foresaw that adam would sin, and so God was influenced by that which He observed that his creature adam would do, which means a temporal being in time, influenced a Eternal Purpose eons and eons before the creature existed, and so God formed His Eternal Purpose to send Christ on what an non entity would do. This logically means that the Eternal Purpose and Will of God was controlled and influenced by something or someone outside of Himself, and so the temporal [in time] determined that which was Eternal, as in the Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This is backwards and God dishonoring as it can get, to say the temporal influenced the forming of the Eternal. It Deny's the God purposed things within Himself !

Eph 1:9

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

 

[Deborah13]

To deny that God is the First and Primary cause of sin and death, its to deny that God Created this World unto Christ for an Redemptive Purpose, and therefore He Caused and Purposed that adam after creating him would disobey His command and bring about the consequences of sin and death, that they enter into His World for that Purpose.

Your Hyper-Calvinism is a shame. Calvin, Spurgeon never taught such things.
You're over the top.

Did you even bother to read the quote I gave? You don't even believe what God said Himself. God didn't tell them to do that, HE says He never even thought to tell them to do that. God was sicken by what they did it was NOT HIS WILL.

 

[savedbygrace57]

A Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus !


That this world was Created for a Redemptive Purpose in Christ Jesus, is not only declared here in Col 1:16-18

16 For by him[Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him[Christ], and for him[Christ]:

17 And he[Christ] is before all things, and by him[Christ] all things consist.

18 And he[Christ] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he[Christ] might have the preeminence.

Now when we say Christ here, it means Christ and His Eternal Purpose f Redemption Eph 3:8-11

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:


But it is also declared here Rev 1:11

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

He is the Beginning, His Purpose of Redemption is the Beginning !

Rev 22:12-13

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

All Earthly History began in His Purpose and shall end in His Purpose !

This World was Created according to God's purpose to Glorify Himself by the Person and Work of Redemption by Jesus Christ, in His Destruction of sin and its evil consequences by His Cross ! Col 2:14-15

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it[His Cross].

This Victory of the Cross over sin and spiritual enemies was Purposed in God and Christ before one molecule was formed, or one particle of dust was made !

Neither was this Eternal Purpose of Display of Wisdom and Power through the Cross an emergency back up plan by God because of Adam's sin or Satan's rebellion, but in fact they were created to serve the already formed Eternal Purpose of God in Christ, in other Words, the Cross was the Main Purpose for their Creation, of Adam and the Devil. The Eternal Transactions of the Everlasting Covenant gave purpose to the Creation of this World !

 

[About the Son of God]

I'm not going to read the whole thread, It seems to be intent of getting a reaction; but I will comment on one part of the OP.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

The Fool is a wicked person, morally depraved, who does destructive and vicious acts; It is not merely a "stupid" person in the American sense of the word.
There is a distinct difference between the sons of "men" and the sons of "God" that is often lost in English translation.
"Men" (plural) generally indicates in the Hebrew and Greek OT, those who are strong and violent; men of war.

But, there is a key to reading Psalm 14 because reading it as you have done will cause contradiction.
For it says:
Psalm 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

So, take for example:

Genes 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
Genes 4:26 (LXX) ... ηλπι-σεν επι-καλει-σθαι το ονομα κυριου του θεου
So, some men have Called on the Lord since the earliest of times; and are not Fools who deny the existence of God.
And it's important to note that in the LXX (Greek) that Genesis 4:26 does not have the plural "men" anywhere in it. It's all singular or un-numbered.

Our English translations hardly do the words justice.

The saying of Psalmist's fool does not even provably end at "There is no God." It can go all the way to the end of the sentence.
It is the fools who also say that there is no good person, not ONE

There is a saying "It takes one to know one."; and this is a very strong meaning of the psalm, for a wicked person believes that there is no such thing as a good person. Hence the fool believes all men are corrupt *like himself*, and justifies himself in his own mind to do wickedness in that way.

This statement hardly applies to the creation of evil; for men do call on the name of Lord; and
note the psalm doesn't say there is only one solitary good person, rather it says:

Psalm 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Psalm 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

Adam was not created evil; but his fall begot evil sons and Good -- mixed.
The key difference before the fall, and after it -- it unity with God, and disunity.

With God as a friend, who can be ignorant of what they are to do, that they may do evil by ignorance?
But, once God is made an enemy -- who could have knowledge of what is Good at all?

There is only one way to be good, and that is to be created in friendship with God, as Adam originally was; and to persevere in that friendship.
but God *CAN* do that, and did from the beginning.

 

[savedbygrace57]

about the son

Adam was not created evil;

I disagree. Why did he transgress God's Law ? Did he Love God in his nature as required ? Deut 13:3

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

 

[About the Son of God]

I am not Adam's judge, that I can read his mind; nor do I think you can; let along God's mind.

Adam is not a machine that is programmed; he had choices to make, he *COULD* have chosen to obey.
So, the very fact is that Adam COULD have loved God with all his heart -- is enough to say God didn't HAVE to create evil. (and accusing God is therefore folly.)

But:
There are things God can not do; for if he were to do them, he would destroy himself and everything would be chaos and cease to exist.
If God, by merely saying "light" created all the light in the universe -- then woe to us if God can fall asleep like us, and have nightmares with all his power still engaged.
Nor can God, himself, lie -- for if he were to utter a word, even briefly, -- the thing would come into being, and therefore be true.

I think this is what is hard for you to grasp: It's not possible for God to be divided; that's the doctrine of the trinity. For this reason God can't create evil itself.

Here's a list of ideas that answer the question in my own mind:

1) As perfect, all powerful, omniscient -- God is not a creatable thing; for he is already perfect, and if he could create another of himself -- that would necessarily add to a perfection. (impossible). God is therefore, uncreated.

2) Because of #1 -- *in order to create anything at all*, God had to make it *less* than himself. (Necessity, not option.)

3) SInce evil is a privation, a loss, a rotting away --- it's clear that something deprived of God's perfection is evil.
Hence, Creation may, at most, be relatively perfect; "perfected" not "perfect" in itself.

4) But, we are told "God hates nothing he has made.", so things can't be *created* deprived of access to God's perfection.


The solution to such a seeming paradox (as you are proposing), lies in that God can bridge the gap between Evil and Good.
That is, God can be the "ALL" in every thing; so that there are no holes in the ability of a creature to act perfectly.

So, when I say God created Adam Good -- I mean, he created him as less than God (potentially evil, not actually evil) -- BUT THAT ADAM WAS A FRIEND OF GOD.
And, therefore, God himself took care of everything Adam was lacking so that Adam did not have to die.

So long as Adam was in friendship with God -- he was not evil; and God provided care for Adam's potential ignorance. (The same for the Devil, BTW.)
If God had not told Adam "you shall not eat." Adam would have been ignorant of the danger. But God, being Good, gave Adam that knowledge.

So, there is no need for God to Create evil; it is merely evil whenever something leaves God, looses access to the perfections, and then begins self destruction.

 

[savedbygrace57]

about

I am not Adam's judge, that I can read his mind

Nobody said nothing about that. However scripture says if we Love Him we will keep His Commandments. Jn 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Now lets try this again. Adam was Given a Commandment by his God Gen 2:16-17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Did adam Love God and prove it by keeping His Commandment. Yes or No ?

 

[About the Son of God]

Jn 14:21 is said by Jesus.
Faith in Jesus wasn't the path of Salvation before sin; for there was no need for salvation.

Up UNTIL the time of Adam's sin, we have no evidence against his love of God. Period.
Therefore, we have no proof Adam was EVIL before the sin.

If you wish to use your argument against Adam, you need to show where God made the command separate from Jesus.
AND you need to show Adam didn't love God from the VERY beginning.

I will agree that once he sinned, we have EVIDENCE (not quite proof) he NO LONGER loved God with all his heart.
But: Don't tempt me to Judge Adam before he was Judged by God. It's arrogant.

 

[savedbygrace57]

about

Up UNTIL the time of Adam's sin, we have no evidence against his love of God.

Jesus said if ye love me you would keep my commandments. If Adam Loved God he would have kept God's Commandment. Its pretty cut and dry. Evidence proves he did not Love God with all his heart , mind and soul as required. Deut 13:3

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

What did adam do ? Gen 3:17

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

And of course eve hearkened to the voice of the serpent. All thise prothishat they did not Love God with all their heart and with all their soul.

 

[Mountain Man]

Poor mankind,he cannot admit that God gave him a choice between Heaven and Hell,blessing and cursing,he blew it and must take responsibility....so he puts together all manner of nonsense to say that it was realy meant to be this way.