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Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

savedbygrace57 said:
You made a statement here:

But God chose to allow for man to have His own free will
Click to expand...

Please provide us with the scripture that states that.
Click to expand...

Oh interesting, let me give a definition of reconcile from the GK.

to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
  1. to reconcile (those who are at variance)
  2. return to favour with, be reconciled to one
  3. to receive one into favour

    This is a verb, an action word, clearly something that one must DO. And clearly in the reading of the simple scripture it is clear seeing that the apostles says they are begging that one DO this it is a willful action on their part.
I am not detoured by evading. I still get to present the Word of God in it's clear meaning. Blessings :)
 
One thing that I see taking place alot in the christian community nowadays is the placing of our CREATOR / GOD in a box that alows us to examine him according to our parameters and according to what we are composed of.

The problem is that we are simply bound to what we are composed of, witch is not what God is composed of.
We are three dimensional beings perhaps with the partial ability to perceive two other dimensions being TIME and SPIRIT. God however does not abide by the same physics that we do on a physical spiritual or any other set of laws that apply to any other dimension.

I do see how one could think that God is responsible for evil in the world. I myself believe that he is responsible for some of it. Simply because he states in his word that he is
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

But that does not hold him to some conceptual or theoretical rule that he absolutely has to be responsible for every evil that is committed here. Again we see here that he does make everything for his purpose
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
He even cause some to lie
2Ch_18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
Paul touched on the subject of Gods supreme authority
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

My research has proven to me that some evils are absolutely Gods doing FAULT may not be the proper term but as it is used Yes some evils are Gods fault or purposed by him rather. Even the simplest common logic will prove that God does Commit evil What do you think SODOM and GOMORAH thought about what was happening to them. God did tell Israel to Kill MEN, WOMEN, CHILDREN, even BEASTS
But that does not give us the right to dictate to the owner and creator what he is allowed to do with the things in witch he owns and creates. Even as it is stated with Pharaoh if it was necessary raise him up and destroy him for his divine purpose and will then What do we have to do with it. I is similar to the sin of COVETING. Human nature tells us that since we have play by some rules that God allso is bound to them.And we tend to Covet Gods abilities,which I might add was the very thing that satin wanted from GOD. witch goes along with the sin of PRIDE,.....

I have decided as a created thing, an infant dependent on my father that I am not the adult and I must submit as a good son should. Humbling as it may be God may very rightfully commit all the evil he needs to, so that his will should be accomplished. Because his adversaries have committed many more evils toward him. HE IS THE JUST AND RIGHTEOUS RULER it is up to him to decide what actions may be approved.
NOT MAN KIND.

Ecc 3
 
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God is God what He does is Godly . He can only be Godly. We try and put Him in a box we recognize He don't fit our thoughts
 
Maybe someday we will have a forum that allows discussion encourages others to post and all this without changing font or color?

reba, get out your rolling pin; get it done for me, will ya? ;)
I'll give you a couple days... clock is ticking...
 
Yeah I would hate to see a man posting in PINK :toofunny

Sparrow replies inside the post, real sneaky like: HEY! What happens in the Moderator Forum stays in the Moderator Forum

oops! :oops
 
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Sorry about the green I'll try some other color


Thanks ! [MENTION=95373]lowrab777[/MENTION]
 
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One thing that I see taking place alot in the christian community nowadays is the placing of our CREATOR / GOD in a box that alows us to examine him according to our parameters and according to what we are composed of.

The problem is that we are simply bound to what we are composed of, which is not what God is composed of.
We are three dimensional beings perhaps with the partial ability to perceive two other dimensions being TIME and SPIRIT. God however does not abide by the same physics that we do on a physical spiritual or any other set of laws that apply to any other dimension.

I do see how one could think that God is responsible for evil in the world. I myself believe that he is responsible for some of it. Simply because he states in his word that he is
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

But that does not hold him to some conceptual or theoretical rule that he absolutely has to be responsible for every evil that is committed here. Again we see here that he does make everything for his purpose
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
He even cause some to lie
2Ch_18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
Paul touched on the subject of Gods supreme authority
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

My research has proven to me that some evils are absolutely Gods doing FAULT may not be the proper term but as it is used Yes some evils are Gods fault or purposed by him rather. Even the simplest common logic will prove that God does Commit evil What do you think SODOM and GOMORAH thought about what was happening to them. God did tell Israel to Kill MEN, WOMEN, CHILDREN, even BEASTS
But that does not give us the right to dictate to the owner and creator what he is allowed to do with the things in which he owns and creates. Even as it is stated with Pharaoh if it was necessary raise him up and destroy him for his divine purpose and will then What do we have to do with it. I is similar to the sin of COVETING. Human nature tells us that since we have play by some rules that God allso is bound to them.And we tend to Covet Gods abilities,which I might add was the very thing that satin wanted from GOD. which goes along with the sin of PRIDE,.....

I have decided as a created thing, an infant dependent on my father that I am not the adult and I must submit as a good son should. Humbling as it may be God may very rightfully commit all the evil he needs to, so that his will should be accomplished. Because his adversaries have committed many more evils toward him. HE IS THE JUST AND RIGHTEOUS RULER it is up to him to decide what actions may be approved.
NOT MAN KIND.

Ecc 3
 
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Logical Ramifications !

The logical ramifications we must have if we conclude sin and death were not originally Caused by God's Eternal Purpose and predestination. It would mean that God would rather it not to have happened , and then we must ask ourselves did God even know that when He made adam and would place him in the garden, where he would be tempted by the devil or the serpent and transgress because of it.

Now if God knew this, and rather it not happen, then thats a problem and a stigma against His Wisdom and Power.

Now if God did not know, then He is not Omniscience and Perfect in Knowledge and we must disregard the Book of Jobs Testimony Job 37:14

16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?

Then we must consider that God knew it, but lacked the ability to make an Adam a perfect sinless man that would not yield to temptation. Did God have that ability, the power to have made adam in a fashion that he could not be corrupted. If God lacked that power and ability, then can we believe and trust that there will be a time that God can make men in that fashion, or has God now grew in His ability since then when creating adam ?595
 
Logical Ramifications !2


Now either the entrance of sin and death was by God's Eternal Purpose of Redemption in Christ Eph 3:11, formed in and of Himself, or all that it entailed in time, like Christ coming as the propitiation 1 Jn 4:9-10

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Hence, His obedience unto death, His Resurrection and Ascension to the Right Hand of God, are not of His own purpose within Himself, and then all that Christ came and accomplished owes its existence to the act of adam and the serpent, and God would have rather that it did not have to be that way ! However todays religionists present it so that God's Eternal Redemptive Purpose was influenced by what He foresaw !

Also according to these religionists, God would have rather not for it to be sinners to redeem, and rather not to be praised throughout Eternity for Redemption as here Rev 5:9-14

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

So according to them, if God really had His way, He would have rather not be Praised in this fashion by redeemed humanity !596
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Logical Ramifications !2


Now either the entrance of sin and death was by God's Eternal Purpose of Redemption in Christ Eph 3:11, formed in and of Himself, or all that it entailed in time, like Christ coming as the propitiation 1 Jn 4:9-10

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Hence, His obedience unto death, His Resurrection and Ascension to the Right Hand of God, are not of His own purpose within Himself, and then all that Christ came and accomplished owes its existence to the act of adam and the serpent, and God would have rather that it did not have to be that way ! However todays religionists present it so that God's Eternal Redemptive Purpose was influenced by what He foresaw !

Also according to these religionists, God would have rather not for it to be sinners to redeem, and rather not to be praised throughout Eternity for Redemption as here Rev 5:9-14

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

So according to them, if God really had His way, He would have rather not be Praised in this fashion by redeemed humanity !596
Click to expand...


Consequently, they believe not in the God of the Bible, but in a god that suits their own ideology:
that created mankind had the ability to thwart God's Eternal Purpose?

But the opposite is true.

Col. 1:16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by Him, and for Him

Sin is a dominion (Psalm 19:13; Rom. 6:14) that was created and is controlled by God for His Purpose
and Pleasure (Rev. 4:11). And sin is also a power (Rom. 7:8).

Was not sin created for Christ to die for? Yes.

He died for our sins (1 Cor. 15:3).

So, Jesus Christ Himself, the creator of all things, created sin for Himself to die for as Mediator
for all His elect people... the only ones the Father gave Him (John 17:9-11).

This is the Fellowship (koinonia: joint participation; intimacy; intercourse) of the Mystery
spoken of in Ephesians 3:9.

The only ones who will "see" or understand this are God's elect ones! (Eph. 1:18; 2 Tim. 1:9)

TGBTG!
 
Read the scriptures...Isiah says in Isiah 45:7 I make peace and I create evil" In fact Isiah 45 is a great chapter on what the Lord does. God is not only the God of Love for his people but also the God of Rightous Judgement. God would not be GOD if he was limited to good only. BUT he is GOD OF ALL and soverign in all he does with his creation. Even Satan himself can only do what God allows him to do. What an amazing Saviour who has a people for himself and I am so glad he does.........I hope you are also his ,and may he bless you as only he can do.
 
Because of Mercy ! 2

Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Again we know God Created His World for a purpose of mercy, if we believe what is here revealed, that His Mercy is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him in the time state. Note : To fear Him is an effect of His having Mercy upon one !

Now mercy primarily has to do with those who are sinners, we read of of God's Rich Mercy Eph 2:4-5

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

Now this Rich Mercy was purposed for the Sinful Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:21,23

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

This Mercy showed to Elect sinners in time, was according to the Everlasting Covenant which is what is meant in Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting[Of the Everlasting Covenant] to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

David had it revealed to him that Mercy was ordered ,arranged for sinners in that Covenant 2 Sam 23:5

5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

Ps 25:14

The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

And that Covenant is all his Salvation, and all whom He concluded to unbelief, was that He would shew them His Mercy of this Covenant Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[The Election of Grace] in unbelief, that[For His Purpose] he might have mercy upon all.

Which mercy results in God quickening them in time while they are being dead in sin Eph 2:4-5, all this was prearranged in the Everlasting Covenant from Everlasting Ps 103:17 !

Note: Gods Salvation Mercy was never intended for all mankind without exception,but only for a remnant Micah 7:18

18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.597
 
Its only reasonable !

Its only reasonable that a person who believes that God purposed Christ because of sin, such rationale must make Christ a second option, or plan b. Reason being,such a one denies that sin was originally purposed by God, but it resulted from something He saw happen outside of His Original Purpose for adam and the world, and then God purposed Christ to meet with this unpurposed by Him occurrence. This therefore automatically defaults into an a and b Will of God. In reality what they tell us is that God purposed to do something, and foreseeing that it would not work out perfectly to His Own Purpose from within Himself, He made some subsequent arrangements to counter that which He foreseen that was not in His Original Purpose for Adam and the World !600
 
josefnospam said:
Even Satan himself can only do what God allows him to do.
Click to expand...


Do you believe that God always uses His ability of foreknowledge to know what satan or man is going to do?
Do you believe that satan must ask God's permission to do evil? If so just how would satan go about asking God, seeing he no longer has access to the Throne of God?
If everything that man does and satan does is with God's foreknowledge and permission, even in the OT, how does one explain what God says in these verses?
Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

God is pretty upset! He didn't command it and He never entered His mind to tell them to do it.

God in His sovereign position CHOSE to give man free will to Choose, life or death. To choose to eat from the Tree of Life (Jesus) or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam made that choice. He passed on this knowledge. So man is born with a consciousness of what is good and what is evil. We have no excuse for doing evil and no excuse for neglecting doing what is good.

One is not "saved" by this knowledge or by his own will without the "drawing" of the Father. God said that every man is without excuse because just by looking at the world around us, we will know that there is a Creator. He says that one can seek Him and find Him.
Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
 
Deborah13 said:
Do you believe that God always uses His ability of foreknowledge to know what satan or man is going to do?
Do you believe that satan must ask God's permission to do evil? If so just how would satan go about asking God, seeing he no longer has access to the Throne of God?
Click to expand...

Is that not what the whole thread is about? Does God cause evil? Do we need evil to separate good?

Is there a middle road somewhere?

If God had foreknowledge of everything. Star Trek version (God lives outside of time, saw you grow up live your life and die.) Then by default God would be responsible just having the foreknowledge. His foreknowledge would not be limited in any way, so by putting the spirit in man on that day, knowing the man was destined for hell, would not be foreknowledge but election or causing something.

God just does not drop people on the planet, then becomes a fortune teller as some believe. Each person has a plan, a purpose, is fearfully and wonderfully made.

Any foreknowledge from God would have, has to start at some point. The point of the plan when He made you. That makes election sure and foreknowledge a dumb idea. To say God just foreknows things, means God just closes his eyes and drops people on the planet wishing for the best.

Election has to be right!!! The problem is we have scriptures in our way!!!

Deborah13 said:
Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Click to expand...

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Pure election and foreknowledge have some major scriptural problems. God never planed to destroy Sodom, but the cry of their sin comes to heaven. God knows something spiritually. God has to personally go and look to see if what He is hearing, matches the sins being committed. He says after he looks, then He will know. That shows no foreknowledge or election. It means God has to go check it out.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

How does God know that Abraham is with him until the end? It was not by foreknowledge or Election. God looks at the heart, and knows by the heart if a man has it in Him to have faith. God searches for these hearts, not makes them, not foreknows them.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Who has to choose here? Jesus said every idle word we speak, bring evil treasure in or good treasure is recorded. Actions and Words denote choices. God said we choose, which one and the choice is recorded. If God foreknows then God does not need to record, if God elects then God does not even ask one to choose.

There is a big difference to what God declared to the World in His word and what God said to each person. Even Peter who experienced miracles and heard the voice of God said......... We have a more sure word of prophecy!!! The word is something God declared, and it will happen. Each person, has a plan and a choice.

God told Eli that His family would be of the royal priesthood forever. That is personal, but all personal things God says is conditional. Eli did not honor God, so God said far be it from me, those that will not honor me, I will not honor.

Jesus followed the perfect plan of God. Jesus stayed on the Path that God declared to the end. On God's path, everything is planed out, everything is waiting around the corner. A donkey shows up at the right exact time in the right place for Jesus because the Donkey was spoken of long ago to be there.

If Jesus just did something else that day, the Donkey would have been there but Jesus would never have known it. The path is declared, the plan for each man in place, it's good things, not evil things.

If you stay on God's path, God could tell you what you will be doing 20 years from now. You get off that path, your own your own, it is darkness and people stumble into things they have no idea why.

Mike.
 
If we believe the narrative of scripture to be true, I see no other logical conclusion than that of God being the cause of all that is in existence, including sin and evil. The question that believers don't seem to want to ask enough of is the question of WHY God would purposely create a world He knew would quickly become infested with something called sin and plagued by death. A part of the obvious answer if we assume God to be omniscient would be that of God wanting sin to exist as it has a part to play in His plan for creation.

In trying to piece the scriptures together as harmoniously as possible, it appears to me that the scriptures indicate that Jesus, God's Anointed was the point of it all and sin was used to along with other things in this world as a proving ground so that it could be shown that Jesus was worthy of the glory of God (Revelation 5:12-13, Philippians 2:7-10, etc.).
 
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