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Is Hell Real?

Re: Terrified of Hell...

If the lake of fire is going to be on this earth, and it is going to be forever, what does this make of it
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
actually that verse speaks of the new heavens and earth and the fiery judgment. god uses what we can see and hear etc to get us to relate to him. ie he is a father. we are his bride. he is a king. he has arms and legs.how does a non corporial being have all that?
 
I have moved these posts here from another thread where debating was not allowed to create this thread. Please remember to keep the discussion civil.
 
Re: Terrified of Hell...

actually that verse speaks of the new heavens and earth and the fiery judgment. god uses what we can see and hear etc to get us to relate to him. ie he is a father. we are his bride. he is a king. he has arms and legs.how does a non corporial being have all that?

It is good to see you and I don't disagree about everything. I see you have kept some of your JW views. I agree with JW's on some things. I don't think hell is simply oblivion though; but I do think it is symbolic... as you said: "God uses what we can see and hear etc to get us to relate..." The message in hell he wants us to relate to is that 'we don't want to be judged by God as unworthy'. We will not be happy with the judgment, so seek to avoid it at all costs. God uses horrific language to relate this to us. If it was simply "oblivion", then the language God uses is overkill. It must represent some punitive result; but that does not require the flames and worms to be literal.
 
I have moved these posts here from another thread where debating was not allowed to create this thread. Please remember to keep the discussion civil.
I was just thinking to myself "huh , i didn't start a topic for this ? "
I am sorry for bringing this up (my interpretation of hell) in a thread which wasn't meant for discussion..

So I am guessing you don't believe in the description either? The gates, the river of life, the roads?
I Believe most words are not to be taken litterally, words are metaphors
they always relate to something else, which is not quite so obvious or simple
as the literal meaning.

If he'll isn't real, then I'm throwing my bible in the bin because it is really decieving. If it's lying about he'll, then hey, we can do away with Jesus being God, and the resurrection was not real. I mean the bible is to be interpreted in the plainest way. It is literal except where the language suggests metaphore
WORDS CAN BE DECIEVING.
But just because they can mean more than 1 litteral thing or relay
a concept which is largely ununderstandable does not mean the words are lies,
it just means our interpretations or comprehension of their underlying meaning are off usually.

I mean you say about the fire consuming spirit and therefore say its a metaphore. What if then term consume is the metaphor to imply total immersion in flame. That would make sense while still keeping the flame literal.

The Flame mentioned/referenced is an actual litteral flame ; a real fire,
In the case of gehenna mentioned..
but (the state of) Hell is to me no real fire,
it is to be consumed by lusts and rot / decay , completely cut off from God.
The Imagery of Hell is/relates a souls internal state-of-being, to me.

god uses what we can see and hear etc to get us to relate to him. ie he is a father. we are his bride. he is a king. he has arms and legs.how does a non corporial being have all that?
Finally someone who comprhends the potency of metaphor, :yes
 
Re: Terrified of Hell...

actuall hades has tarturus(the area for the wicked) the lysian fields for the good. gehenna is the area that was trash pit outside of the city of jerusalem where trash was burned. its not the lake of fire.

that isnt gehenna.


22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​
(Isa 66:22-24 KJV)
 
If by hell you mean Gehenna, it is a literal place, it's not a metaphor.

Gehenna is the actual place (literal) were the imagery of "Hell" originated.
"Hell" is the metaphor used to describe the state of rot / death / sulfur and burning
a place for the dead , and those permanently cut off from God.
which was the real state of affairs in the valley of Hinnom more than 2000 years ago.

...but people in general seem to miss the most important point :
EVERY word is a metaphor for something other than that word. .
a word means nothing without the concept behind it that that word refers to.
 
Gehenna is the actual place (literal) were the imagery of "Hell" originated.
"Hell" is the metaphor used to describe the state of rot / death / sulfur and burning
a place for the dead , and those permanently cut off from God.
which was the real state of affairs in the valley of Hinnom more than 2000 years ago.

...but people in general seem to miss the most important point :
EVERY word is a metaphor for something other than that word. .
a word means nothing without the concept behind it that that word refers to.

In Isaiah God speaks of the new earth and Gehenna is there, it's not a metaphor.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}​
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa 66:22-24 KJV)
 
In Isaiah God speaks of the new earth and Gehenna is there

Gehenna is not mentioned by name at all in Isaiah.

it's not a metaphor.

I Never said it was. (except in the "every word is a metaphor" - part )

I Said "hell" is the metaphor relating to the actual place that was Gehenna.
 
Re: Terrified of Hell...

Well, there are three hells , there is hades, tatarus, and gahenna. We don't have much description of tatarus ( where some of the devils angels are kept ) but the other 2 are literal. I mean you say about the fire consuming spirit and therefore say its a metaphore. What if then term consume is the metaphor to imply total immersion in flame. That would make sense while still keeping the flame literal.

Hades and Tatarus are both taken from Greek Mythology... Even my kid learned this from reading the Percy Jackson series... Get a copy of the Oddyse by Homer. Essentiallty, Tatarus is where the really, really bad people go and it is located in the deepest depths of Hades. Hades is the brother of Zeus, and his domain which is located in the underworld was refered to as Hades.. Everyone went to Hades, but many didn't stay. This is in line with Jewish thinking on "hell" and it is believed that a really good Rabbi would pass through "hell" and could actually take souls out.
 
Re: Terrified of Hell...

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​
(Isa 66:22-24 KJV)
so then we do the law forever? i never said that it didnt exist only that we have a glimpse of it. do we really know what the father looks like? NO no man has seen nor described is JESUS.

you forgot this verse! that is where? the new earth and heavens ? so why the levites?

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh

also i do believe we can see them. but once again that must be after the final judgement. so this too shall i post in the millenial verse.that is an old way of describing the shabats and the law being done. if you take that literal.
 
With all of the tools available today, I am shocked that many still believe in a primitive Roman myth designed to frighten the laity into believing God will send most of His offspring to a place of torment without end. A simple Concordance or Lexicon will put the pagan mythology to rest within minutes. And the detailed history of how this heathen lore crept its way into the Church hundreds of years AFTER Christ is extensive and available for all to see. Besides, what kind of people would serve such a god? My guess; terrified people who do not wish to provoke the cruel, savage deity to anger.

If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then we must re-write the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. We must force the the Bible to say that, if that is indeed what God meant. We must make the Bible say, "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely SUFFER ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL" (Genesis 2:16-17). We must correct the Word of God so that it says, "The soul that sins, it shall be eternally tormented in hell" (Ezekiel 18:4). John 3:16 must be made to correctly read, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not be eternally tormented, but spend eternity in heaven." If the wages of sin is eternal torment then Romans 5:12 must be made to say, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and eternal torment by sin; and so eternal torment passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." You will have to re-write literally hundreds (even thousands) of passages if you say that the wages of sin is eternal torment.

"The wages of sin is death," says the Lord, even though the majority of men still think that the wages of sin is eternal torment, one of the most abominable and notorious lies ever told, a product of religious fraud, deception and greed. The wages of sin is actually death. And Jesus died! He met the full demands of law. He paid the debt of sin in full so none of us have to. Praise His Holy Name!

Besides, if ETERNAL TORMENT were the wages of sin, then JESUS NEVER ATONED FOR SIN. HE DID NOT SUFFER ETERNAL TORMENT. And if that is the price God demands as punishment for sin, THEN JESUS PAID NOTHING AT ALL. If my punishment were eternal torment, and Jesus took my place, receiving the full judgment for my sin, then it should be clear to any thinking person that He would have had to suffer eternally in hell. That is the only way the debt could be paid!

The same deductive logic can be used for annihilationism. Jesus was not annihilated! He did not stay dead for ever! If annihilation is the penalty for sin, then every son of Adam, saved or lost, must yet suffer his own penalty and be annihilated forever. The Bible nowhere speaks of "eternal death." God did not say to Adam, "In the day that you eat thereof you shall surely eternally die." The record does not state that "the wages of sin is eternal death." It does not say that "the soul that sins, it shall die forever." To the contrary, it points to the END of death for "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH."

God bless and peace. :peace
 
With all of the tools available today, I am shocked that many still believe in a primitive Roman myth designed to frighten the laity into believing God will send most of His offspring to a place of torment without end. A simple Concordance or Lexicon will put the pagan mythology to rest within minutes. And the detailed history of how this heathen lore crept its way into the Church hundreds of years AFTER Christ is extensive and available for all to see. Besides, what kind of people would serve such a god? My guess; terrified people who do not wish to provoke the cruel, savage deity to anger.

If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then we must re-write the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. We must force the the Bible to say that, if that is indeed what God meant. We must make the Bible say, "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely SUFFER ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL" (Genesis 2:16-17). We must correct the Word of God so that it says, "The soul that sins, it shall be eternally tormented in hell" (Ezekiel 18:4). John 3:16 must be made to correctly read, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not be eternally tormented, but spend eternity in heaven." If the wages of sin is eternal torment then Romans 5:12 must be made to say, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and eternal torment by sin; and so eternal torment passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." You will have to re-write literally hundreds (even thousands) of passages if you say that the wages of sin is eternal torment.

"The wages of sin is death," says the Lord, even though the majority of men still think that the wages of sin is eternal torment, one of the most abominable and notorious lies ever told, a product of religious fraud, deception and greed. The wages of sin is actually death. And Jesus died! He met the full demands of law. He paid the debt of sin in full so none of us have to. Praise His Holy Name!

Besides, if ETERNAL TORMENT were the wages of sin, then JESUS NEVER ATONED FOR SIN. HE DID NOT SUFFER ETERNAL TORMENT. And if that is the price God demands as punishment for sin, THEN JESUS PAID NOTHING AT ALL. If my punishment were eternal torment, and Jesus took my place, receiving the full judgment for my sin, then it should be clear to any thinking person that He would have had to suffer eternally in hell. That is the only way the debt could be paid!

The same deductive logic can be used for annihilationism. Jesus was not annihilated! He did not stay dead for ever! If annihilation is the penalty for sin, then every son of Adam, saved or lost, must yet suffer his own penalty and be annihilated forever. The Bible nowhere speaks of "eternal death." God did not say to Adam, "In the day that you eat thereof you shall surely eternally die." The record does not state that "the wages of sin is eternal death." It does not say that "the soul that sins, it shall die forever." To the contrary, it points to the END of death for "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH."

God bless and peace. :peace

Excellent post!
 
Originally posted by westtexas,

Only if you believe in Universalism as Jack Straw does.

I believe that Jesus Christ died, not only for my sins, but for the sins of the whole world; as it is written in 1 John 2:2. I believe the God-breathed scripture that attests to the fact that Jesus Christ will make righteous the same people that Adam made sinners; as it is written in Romans 5:19 and 1 Corinthians 15:22. I believe that ALL creation eventually returns to God because of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross; as it is written in Colossians 1:19-20. I believe that God is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those that believe; as it is written in 1 Timothy 4:10. I believe in The Man Christ Jesus, Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and Who gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL; as it is written in 1 Timothy 2:3-6. I believe that Christ will draw ALL people to Himself; as it is written in John 12:32. I believe that in the end, God will be ALL IN ALL; as it is written in 1 Corinthians 15:28. Whatever religious lingo man wants to use to describe what I believe, so be it, as I don't get involved with religious institutions of any kind, including Unitarian Universalism, which is also mixing bakers yeast into the loaf.

God bless and peace. :peace
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I believe that Jesus Christ died, not only for my sins, but for the sins of the whole world; as it is written in 1 John 2:2. I believe the God-breathed scripture that attests to the fact that Jesus Christ will make righteous the same people that Adam made sinners; as it is written in Romans 5:19 and 1 Corinthians 15:22. I believe that all creation eventually returns to God because of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross; as it is written in Colossians 1:20. I believe that God is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, especially of those that believe; as it is written in 1 Timothy 4:10 and 1 Timothy 2:3-6. I believe that Christ will draw ALL people to Himself; as it is written in John 12:32. I believe that in the end, God will be ALL IN ALL; as it is written in 1 Corinthians 15:28. Whatever religious lingo man wants to use to describe what I believe, so be it, as I don't get involved with religious institutions of any kind, including Unitarian Universalism, which is also mixing bakers yeast into the loaf.

God bless and peace. :peace

Some of the earliest Christians believed this. It is particularly mentioned in the Shepherd of Hermas, which was available in almost all churches since the 2nd century. Great scholars like Origen taught it too (I think). You communicate it well anyway.
 
Jack / Tri Unity,

Luke 16: 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are.] And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Sent from mobile.
 
Jack / Tri Unity,

Luke 16: 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are.] And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Are you suggesting that everything said in these verses is literal?
 
Lets approach it from this angle,..
For "Hell" to be real, actual, litteral :
There has to be a Hebrew word that means "place of eternal damnation"

there is NOT.

Hebrews in Christ's time didn't even conceptualize such,
they DID not have a word for such place of eternal damnation...

She'ol is translated in to three terms (in the KJV)
Means ; grave, hell, and pit.”

According to Strong's concordance :
It is translated as hell 31 times, grave 30 times, pit 3 times and grave’s once.

In a modern Tanakh , there are simply no cases of She'ol being translated into "Hell" , it simply does not occur.

Hebrews used a word, “sheol,” Whether you were the most wicked person or King David, you entered “sheol,” the state of death and your body returned to where it came from.
The bottom line is this - the only word translated as hell in the Old Testament has nothing to do with a place of eternal punishment.

There is no word for “hell” as a place of eternal torment in ancient Hebrew.

Anyone who does not agree, i suppose the burdon is on you to prove your
view of "Hell" as a place of eternal damnation... can be substanciated.

Continuously Quoting gravid sentences containing a mistranslated term is simply not enough to substanciate belief in a doctrine of eternal damnation and punishment.
 
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