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Is Hell Real?

Felix, never mind. You can't even grasp the idea that it IS a parable, not to mention what the parable means. If you don't understand the correlation with the Rich Man and Judah, and Lazarus and the "gentile" Eleazar, I'm not going to go back and forth with you trying to get you to see past your ridiculous eternal torture chamber fantasy. God is the only One who can open eyes, so let's leave it at that. My previous post was already too long :bigfrown

The other passage which I mentioned is not a parable. It is a direct instruction from Christ. Did Christ haven't opened your eyes by speaking directly form Mark 9:43-44? Or, are you wanting to be blind since your don't like the idea of a literal torment of hell fire?

(Mark 9:43-44) "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched -- where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
 
If there is no hell for anyone to go to, why did Jesus have to do what he did and how does God ensure justice is done? Does everyone get to go to heaven then or are some just obliterated?
 
Osgiliath, (and the others also)
thank you for your contribution to this thread.

You say; "What is the point of the Gospel if there is no hell?" On the contrary; those who should really give up witnessing to their loved ones, and preaching to the lost are those who believe most of them will burn for ever in hell anyway! What on earth could be more worthless, unprofitable, vain, disturbing and disappointing than witnessing and preaching to men when we actually believe that God will torture most of them in unimaginable agony forever anyway? Why bother?

This sums up my view quite well.

The word origins and original meaning make it very clear there is
little to NO case for
"hell" : the place of eternal torture and torment God sends people"

studying along these same lines i simply can not come to a different conclusion
than that this idea of hell is Pagan and does not have a base in Scripture.
It is only because the church propegated this and so many self-proclaimed Christians state it as fact (and do not study etymology) that the idea ever became prevalent.

are you wanting to be blind since your don't like the idea of a literal torment of hell fire?

No Felix, personally i can deal with that bleak and horrific idea which goes
against everything Jesus represented.
The reason i can't accept it as a explanation / interpretation of hell
is that there is nothing to substanciate the assumption with.

If there is no hell for anyone to go to, why did Jesus have to do what he did ?

Jesus came to save our souls, not torment them ad infinitum.
the many descriptive references to flames, being consumed, rotting,
"eternal torment" is what one brings upon him/herself Spritually
by not accepting the word, the way, the light : Christ's salvation.
There is no hell "to go to" but there is a hell to experience spiritually
and to warn people of this hell it is figuartively described as -a state (realm) of eternal suffering-.

and how does God ensure justice is done?

by knowing mens hearts and either being in them or not.
The presence of god is heavenly, the absence is hellish.

 
The many descriptive references to flames, being consumed, rotting, "eternal torment" is what one brings upon him/herself Spritually
by not accepting the word, the way, the light: Christ's salvation. There is no hell "to go to" but there is a hell to experience spiritually..."
This is the intended meaning of an allegory or metaphor.

This idea of hell is Pagan and does not have a base in Scripture...
Here I venture to say that God knew He was using ideas that would appeal to our pagan connections. Paganism is like light to a moth, and we should always be guarded against this; yet, God determined this to be our test. God has done this same thing with multiple "ideas"... if there is any darkness in us it draws us out. That is how JW's or Mormons get drawn into their own unique beliefs... they take a particular scripture or idea and blend that idea with, in their case, gnosticism. We have done similar things too in our adoption of Christmas and Easter. The Jews also adopted beliefs from Babylon. They even changed their calendar to comply with Babylon. We are all prone to the same deception. We have accepted the package of Protestants and expected they knew what they were talking about - in many cases they didn't. We all need to find God afresh for ourselves... do our own homework instead of relying on past doctrines.
 
Jesus came to save our souls, not torment them ad infinitum.
the many descriptive references to flames, being consumed, rotting,
"eternal torment" is what one brings upon him/herself Spritually
by not accepting the word, the way, the light : Christ's salvation.
There is no hell "to go to" but there is a hell to experience spiritually
and to warn people of this hell it is figuartively described as -a state (realm) of eternal suffering-.



by knowing mens hearts and either being in them or not.
The presence of god is heavenly, the absence is hellish.

[/FONT]

This make a large amount of sense, thank you. Still can't quite get my head round how a spirituallity without God doesn't exist but the opposite does
 
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why did jesus then mention the ressurection of the just to eternal life and unjust to eternal damnation?

if death is it for the lost then why raise them from the dead? that is what the jw's teach. no ressurection for the dead sinners. yet that presents a problem. they believe in soul sleep.
 
Originally posted by jasoncran,

that is what the jw's teach. no ressurection for the dead sinners. yet that presents a problem. they believe in soul sleep.

I'm not familiar with the "religious lingo" of the day. Please explain "soul sleep" - I've never heard that particular term before. Thanks.
 
that is what the jw's teach. ..............yet that presents a problem. they believe in soul sleep.

I am not a JW and never have been and furthermore disagree with them in many areas, but...

Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Just a few of several scriptures, hmmm, appears they may be in pretty good company.
 
The the term "soul sleep" refers to the dead being "unconscious" until either resurrection - as opposed to conscious. Well, like John 8:32 above, I too disagree with the JWs (all denominations for that matter), but let's see what the Bible says about this.

When our spirit returns to God, is it conscious? Genesis 2:7 explains the process:

"God formed the human out of soil from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and the human became a living soul."

We consist of two basic elements: body and spirit, and the resultant consciousness (soul). Adam was not called a soul until the breath (spirit) entered his body. A human doesn't have a soul, but becomes a soul when the breath of life enters his body.

James confirms: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26)


Ecclesiastes 9:9-10 confirms this decided lack of activity in the grave:

"For this is your portion in life and in your toil that you are toiling under the sun. All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, for there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom in the unseen where you are going."



And:

John 3:13 - "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the Son of man which is in heaven."

Psalms 115:17 - "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

John 5:28-29 - "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice."

Matthew 27:52 - "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose."

Psalms 6:5 - "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks."

Daniel 12:13 - "As for you, go your way till the end. You will sleep, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance. "

John 11:11-14 - "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Mark 5:39 - "And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth."



And of course, the Kings:

1 Kings 2:10 - So "David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David."

2 Chronicles 9:31 - And Solomon slept with his fathers, and he was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chronicles 12:16 - And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David: and Abijah his son reigned in his stead.

2 Kings 24:6 - So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.


And so on, and so on........ ALL of the Kings "SLEPT" with their fathers.




I think the confusion comes from 3 passages of Scripture:

Revelation 6:9-10 - " When he opened the fifth seal, I saw UNDER THE ALTAR the souls of those WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. THEY CRIED OUT in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?'"

Many use this text to demonstrate that when martyrs die for Jesus, they go to Heaven and live under the altar. They say, "John heard them speaking, so these martyrs must be conscious and not unconscious (asleep)." But look here:

Genesis 4:10 - "The Lord said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood CRIES OUT TO ME from the ground."

Did Abel's blood audibly speak? No. The Lord used personification in Genesis 4 to describe the justice that Abel's innocent blood demanded and the same is true in Revelation 6. The Altar of Burnt Offering is the altar where these souls are crying out in the Fifth Seal. Look at these verses:

Leviticus 8:15 - "Moses slaughtered the bull and took some of the blood, and with his finger he put it on all the horns of the altar to purify the altar. He poured out the rest of the blood AT THE BASE OF THE ALTAR. So he consecrated it to make atonement for it."

Exodus 29:12 "Take some of the bull's blood and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour out the rest of it AT THE BASE OF THE ALTAR."

Leviticus 4:18 "He is to put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is before the Lord in the Tent of Meeting. The rest of the blood he shall pour out AT THE BASE OF THE ALTAR of burnt offering at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting."

Leviticus 9:9 "His sons brought the blood to him, and he dipped his finger into the blood and put it on the horns of the altar; the rest of the blood he poured out at THE BASE OF THE ALTAR."


In the wilderness temple, the blood of animal sacrifices was poured on the base of the Altar of Burnt Offering. The reason their souls are represented as being under the altar is because that is the place where the blood of sacrifices was stored. This has nothing to do with these martyrs "literally speaking" because they are conscious, this is symbolic and a parallel to the services that took place in the wilderness temple with regard to sacrifices.




The second passage is:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 - "We are confident, I say, and WILLING RATHER to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

There is a huge difference between Paul saying that he is "willing to be absent from the body and ... present with the Lord," as opposed to making a statement that flatly states that "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord." But unfortunately, most of orthodox Christianity doesn't think about anything other than what their church tells them. Paul did not LIE when he taught us that He, like all saints, would be resurrected from the DEAD, not at his death, but AT THE LAST TRUMP (1 Corinthians 15:52).

See here -

"For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed," (1 Corinthians 5:3)

"For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ." (Colossians 2:5)


To be absent from the body in the proper context of what Paul is addressing is to deny the flesh and therefore present with the Lord as we walk in the Spirit. Romans 6:6-8 put it ever so plainly when it said, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him."

John 3:6 says, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

And let's not forget Romans 8:1 wherein it says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

It's quite obvious then, that this often misquoted passage has nothing to do with the dead passing on to paradise immediately. After all – "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. All" (Ecclesiastes 3:20)




The third is obviously:

Luke 23:43: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

The KJV is an unfortunate translation of scripture lending credence to all sorts of unscriptural, contradictory nonsense.

No. Jesus didn't say 'TODAY' you go to paradise, nor did the thief! After Jesus DIED, He was DEAD (a Scriptural and scientific truth denied by most of Christendom). God the Father "raised Jesus 'FROM THE DEAD'" (Galatians 1:1), which is proof that Jesus WAS DEAD! And if He was DEAD in the tomb, he was not LIVING at some other location called "paradise." How could the thief be with Jesus in paradise TODAY, when Jesus didn't rise from the dead until three days later?

The King James says: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Oh what a difference a single COMMA can make! The verse should properly read:

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Was that an intentional misplacement of the comma in the KJV? I don't know.

Notice how the Greek scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse:

"Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."




Good Lord, no wonder most Christians are such easy prey for the devil! It's a good thing John tells us in Revelation 20:5 that, "The rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years should be finished." Guess what folks: Dead people do not live. Thank you, John, for clearing this up!

If the "religious term" soul sleep means being unconscious until the resurrection, then of course, it is Biblical. In fact, how anyone can believe otherwise when studying the Scriptures is a miracle. The power of religious tradition. Unbelievable. :nono2
 
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soul sleep isnt accepted by most churches in that we leave our bodies and return to god and await in a SOULESS STATE TO BE RAISED AGAIN. THAT IS WHAT THE JW'S TEACH

your position being the same that theres no eternal soul. that is your problem not mine. the word and adam was a living soul is the word nephesh wich means that which breathes. animals have a nephesh too. nephesh chaya is the word you should use but that is also what animals have too,. if that is you want to accept the five forms of a soul from the original hebrew versions and thought on man. i do. the nt uses three words, psyche, psuche and soma. mind, body and soul.

now then what is the state of the damned to you that sinner that dies? where does he go?
 
Re: Terrified of Hell...

So I am guessing you don't believe in the description either? The gates, the river of life, the roads?

hmmmm...

can i ask you the same question? do u believe in the physical description of heaven including the streets of gold and the mansions? do you also believe in the physical desciption of our heavenly Father that he is really sitting on his throne in heaven?

Because heaven is a real place humans need bodies to go there like enoch and elijah like Jesus the Divine offspring of the eternal Father.

He died for our sins and slept uncounsiously in the grave for 3 days and then went to heaven.

He is our example. we will sleep uncounciously in the grave until our resurection.

Jesus said in john 14 1-3 will come take us to mansions at 2nd coming. not before.
 
Originally posted jasoncran,

now then what is the state of the damned to you that sinner that dies? where does he go?

Why are you asking me? The Bible is very clear about what happens to both.

The dead in Christ are raised at the Last Trump:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 - Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not ALL SLEEP, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed..."

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the TRUMPET of God. And the dead IN CHRIST will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

I know some concoct a silly secret rapture out of the verses in 1 Thessalonians 4, but in reality, this is simply the resurrection of the dead, and those living at the time being "changed".

As for the rest: (to whom you refer to as the damned),

Revelation 20:5-6 - "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

Jasoncran, did you even read my previous post? It amazes me how people don't even care what the Bible says concerning things - they believe what they believe.... just because :lol. I don't care what religion teaches what, or what the JWs say that doesn't agree with what Baptists or Methodists or whoever happen to say. I don't get involved with denominations or sects. They are all self-exalting and infested with man's leaven. The Bible is very clear on the state of the dead. If you disagree, take each verse of those Scriptures from my previous post and explain them, one by one. Can you do that?
 
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Why are you asking me? The Bible is very clear about what happens to both.

The dead in Christ are raised at the Last Trump:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 - Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not ALL SLEEP, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed..."

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the TRUMPET of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."


I know some concoct a silly secret rapture out of the verses in 1 Thessalonians 4, but in reality, this is simply the "first resurrection" (Revelation 20:5) - i.e - those who are IN CHRIST being resurrected (both the living and those who have died - the dead first).

As for the rest: (who you refer to as the damned),

Revelation 20:5-6 - "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."[/B]

Jasoncran, did you even read my post? It amazes me how people don't even care what the Bible says concerning things - they believe what they believe.... just because :lol. I don't care what religion teaches what, or what the JWs say that doesn't agree with what Baptists or Methodists or whoever believe. I don't get involved with denominations or sects. They are all self-exalting and infested with man's leaven. The Bible is very clear on the state of the dead. If you disagree, take each verse of those Scriptures from my previous post and explain them, one by one. Can you do that?
then where is the lost.


John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
John 5:29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

http://concordances.org/greek/2920.htm

that word implies a sentence. it means what to you? what is the sentence to you?how then can something bee seen that no longer exists.
what is condemnation if theres no eternal soul that all men have that doesnt die?

what is meant by ressurection of the dead? men who are dead here his voice and raised and hear him and either are given eternal life or eternal damnation?
http://concordances.org/greek/2920.htm

that word in revalation 20 means to examine by torture. that well means some pain. interesting

so how does something that is destroyed be there day and night?

so after a thousand years. cheryy picked that one. where is that lake of fire then what is that? how can a dead men that isnt alive be cast into a metaphorical lake that means annilhation?

what does the word torment mean(tartaroo)?
 
then where is the lost.


John 5:28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
John 5:29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

http://concordances.org/greek/2920.htm

that word implies a sentence. it means what to you? what is the sentence to you?how then can something bee seen that no longer exists.
what is condemnation if theres no eternal soul that all men have that doesnt die?

what is meant by ressurection of the dead? men who are dead here his voice and raised and hear him and either are given eternal life or eternal damnation?
http://concordances.org/greek/2920.htm

that word in revalation 20 means to examine by torture. that well means some pain. interesting

so how does something that is destroyed be there day and night?

so after a thousand years. cheryy picked that one. where is that lake of fire then what is that? how can a dead men that isnt alive be cast into a metaphorical lake that means annilhation?

what does the word torment mean(tartaroo)?

as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities around them, committing greedily fornication, in like manner with them, and going after other flesh, lie there as an example, undergoing the judgment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7 Darby Translation

Look what the bible says.

Sodom and Gomorah suffered eternal fire. But they are not still burning until this day. It is the consequences that were eternal.

The Father never told adam if you sin against me than I will burn you forever. He said you will die.

That is the fate of all unbelievers who die without excepting the Divine Offspring of God as their savior.


Eternal fire and Eternal punishment and eternal Damnation are just like how Sodom and Gomorah suffered eternal fire.

The consequences are eternal. They are death without resurrection. The 2nd death the final death.

Satan and angels and all the humans that were deceived by him without repenting to Jesus will be destroyed.

Have you read the verse in Revelation that says sin will be no more. Some bible translations say the curse will be no more.

Have you read where paul wrote that the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Guess what if there is sinners beling burned alive for all eternity than that means that sin can never die and death will never die.

The only way for sin and death to be destroyed is for God to destroy all the sinners including satan and his angels.

Besides that Peter says the lake of fire is going to be the whole earth.

so then how can the earth lake of fire be eternal. You know that the Son of God is going to recreate it. That means the lake of fire is going to have to stop burning some time.

I saw that you quoted the Revelation verse that says that the sinners will burn in the prescence of Jesus and the angels for ever and ever.

In your mind for ever and ever means without end.

But I read for ever and ever as until it is finshed.

Can you imagine Jesus and the angels watching sinners being burned for all eternity. Couldn't happen.

Forever doesn't always mean without end in the Bible. Johna said he was in the whale forever

The bible says that a Jewish slave could stick an earing in his ear and he would be his owners slave for ever.

see forever doesn't mean without end.

Jesus and the angels have better things to do than watch satan and his angels get burned for all eternity.

God is merciful and he loves all of his creations and he will put the sinful creatures out of there misery.
 
as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities around them, committing greedily fornication, in like manner with them, and going after other flesh, lie there as an example, undergoing the judgment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7 Darby Translation

Look what the bible says.

Sodom and Gomorah suffered eternal fire. But they are not still burning until this day. It is the consequences that were eternal.
According to the note in my study Bible, at the time that was written, the site of Sodom and Gomorrah was still smoking and smouldering. So according to Jude, the fire would have appeared eternal and that could very well be what he meant.
 
Good to see you Free. Happy Sabbath

According to the note in my study Bible, at the time that was written, the site of Sodom and Gomorrah was still smoking and smouldering. So according to Jude, the fire would have appeared eternal and that could very well be what he meant.

What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah was a local lake of fire.

The next one will be a global lake of fire.

What happened to those ungodly people back then is a warning to the ungodly people who live in the last times.

God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and destroyed them by burning them to ashes. He made those cities an example to ungodly people of what is going to happen to them. 2 Peter 2:6 God's word translation

Peter says that God saves the wicked people for the day of judement.

And he's going to burn the people and everything in it and then recreate it.

So if the lake of fire is going to be on the earth than how can it be eternal?

Obviously popular christianity need to change their unbiblical eternal hell belief because the bible cant be changed.

And the bible says that Only God is immortal 1st Tim 6:16
so no we don't have immortal souls

and we wont be immortal until Jesus resurrects us and takes us to heaven so we can eat the tree of life.

Satnan and his angels and all the sinners are going to be destroyed and sin is going to be destroyed and death will be destroyed

I don't know where but somewhere in the bible God promises that sin won't happen a second time.

guess what if sinners are burning eternally than they are cussing out God and that is a sin.

The only way for God to eradicate sin is to eradicate the sinners.

God could have destroyed Satan and his angels right after they first sinned but God wanted it to play out until everyones questions were answered.

After the judgement is pronounced there won't be anymore questions about the character of God.

Even Satan and his angels even all the unrepented sinners will confess that Jesus is Lord before they are burned up in the lake of fire.
 
as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities around them, committing greedily fornication, in like manner with them, and going after other flesh, lie there as an example, undergoing the judgment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7 Darby Translation

Look what the bible says.

Sodom and Gomorah suffered eternal fire. But they are not still burning until this day. It is the consequences that were eternal.

The Father never told adam if you sin against me than I will burn you forever. He said you will die.

That is the fate of all unbelievers who die without excepting the Divine Offspring of God as their savior.


Eternal fire and Eternal punishment and eternal Damnation are just like how Sodom and Gomorah suffered eternal fire.

The consequences are eternal. They are death without resurrection. The 2nd death the final death.

Satan and angels and all the humans that were deceived by him without repenting to Jesus will be destroyed.

Have you read the verse in Revelation that says sin will be no more. Some bible translations say the curse will be no more.

Have you read where paul wrote that the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Guess what if there is sinners beling burned alive for all eternity than that means that sin can never die and death will never die.

The only way for sin and death to be destroyed is for God to destroy all the sinners including satan and his angels.

Besides that Peter says the lake of fire is going to be the whole earth.

so then how can the earth lake of fire be eternal. You know that the Son of God is going to recreate it. That means the lake of fire is going to have to stop burning some time.

I saw that you quoted the Revelation verse that says that the sinners will burn in the prescence of Jesus and the angels for ever and ever.

In your mind for ever and ever means without end.

But I read for ever and ever as until it is finshed.

Can you imagine Jesus and the angels watching sinners being burned for all eternity. Couldn't happen.

Forever doesn't always mean without end in the Bible. Johna said he was in the whale forever

The bible says that a Jewish slave could stick an earing in his ear and he would be his owners slave for ever.

see forever doesn't mean without end.

Jesus and the angels have better things to do than watch satan and his angels get burned for all eternity.

God is merciful and he loves all of his creations and he will put the sinful creatures out of there misery.
lol ye old aeon definition of age, if that is the case then we believers dont have eternal life either.

ok you all say that god is mericiful? was it merciful to order men by the law to be stoned? that aint a quick death. was it painless for the families of the enemies of daniel that died in the lions den? was it painless when the earth swallowed the men of korah?
 
lol ye old aeon definition of age, if that is the case then we believers dont have eternal life either.

ok you all say that god is mericiful? was it merciful to order men by the law to be stoned? that aint a quick death. was it painless for the families of the enemies of daniel that died in the lions den? was it painless when the earth swallowed the men of korah?

Or when he ordered the destruction of the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites?
 
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