Is it ever ok to lie?

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Is it ever ok to lie?

Let’s say it you lived in German and were hiding a Jewish family in your house. One day the Gestapo (Nazi secret police) shows up and asks you if you have any Jew’s in your house.

Would you tell the Gestapo the truth knowing that they would be eventually be killed, or would you lie to them.

Think long and hard before you answer this.

 

[moniker]

Yes.

Even if you believe wholeheartedly in unflinching absolutes regarding an action you can certainly scale them, particularly for a specific context. A lie is bad and is always bad. Murder is bad and is always bad. Objectively murder is worse than a lie unless said lie leads to murder occurring. Therefore lieing is excusable in order to prevent murder, or tell the brownshirt to take a hike. If you don't hold to the unbending condemnation of specific actions as morally wrong then it's even easier.

This is why I was never really able to get into Kant; from what I've heard about it I just don't think it'd be worth my time to read up on him although I'm sure I will eventually.

 

[Solo]

Yes.

Even if you believe wholeheartedly in unflinching absolutes regarding an action you can certainly scale them, particularly for a specific context. A lie is bad and is always bad. Murder is bad and is always bad. Objectively murder is worse than a lie unless said lie leads to murder occurring. Therefore lieing is excusable in order to prevent murder, or tell the brownshit to take a hike. If you don't hold to the unbending condemnation of specific actions as morally wrong then it's even easier.

This is why I was never really able to get into Kant; from what I've heard about it I just don't think it'd be worth my time to read up on him although I'm sure I will eventually.

I think you meant "Brownshirt"!!

 

[Poke]

I think you meant "Brownshirt"!!

Easy mistake. :-D

 

[peace4all]

there are alwasy good lies, and bad lies.

the nazi lie, is a good lie, because, if not, you are in an essence, murdering someone innocent.

a lie i plan on telling my gf, a few days before her birthday, is that I am too tired to come over, and not going to see her that night, then throw her a surprise party.... A good lie.

A good lie, is santa clause and the easter bunny.


Bad lies are "no, i didnt sneak out last night"
"yes, I love you"
"there are WMD'S in Iraq"

and a few others.

 

[Rick W]

It's been said that if one lives exactly as Jesus would do you'd have very little friends, no money and just about everyone would hate you. Besides, the lies we tell ourselves every day is enough to keep us in trouble with the Lord for some time to come. No need to further the issue to include anyone else.
:-D

 

[stovebolts]

I would lie to the nazi's.

The way I understand it, there are two laws that the rest of the laws hinge upon. (Mark 12) 1st is to love / honor God with all that I am and second is to love my neighbor as myself.

My neighbor is the one who shows compassion (Luke 10) Likewise, I can be a good neighbor and thus, bring honor to God. They go hand in hand and quite simply, when we love our neighbor, we give honor to God.

I have a choice in this scenereo. If I tell the truth, I am not being a good neighbor and thus, I have not given honor to God.

Some might say that God always wants us to tell the truth. I say that God will judge us on what's in our hearts and I believe this is a prime example of what's in the heart, flows out through ones mouth.

 

[thessalonian]

The consequence of our action is of importance here as always. Telling the truth would end in someone getting imprisioned or killed based on their religion. Telling the lie would result in saving a life, but not only saving a life but preventing someone else from committing murder. I can't think of a negative consequence offhand. Put another way, if you saw someone pointing a gun at someone (Let's make it your wife or child), about to shoot them, would it be wrong for you to use your gun to prevent the murder? The scriptures do say "thou shalt not kill" dont they? However intent of the heart in that case is what is important as in all cases. Therefore I say, go with the lie. :-D

 

[stovebolts]

It's been said that if one lives exactly as Jesus would do you'd have very little friends, no money and just about everyone would hate you. Besides, the lies we tell ourselves every day is enough to keep us in trouble with the Lord for some time to come. No need to further the issue to include anyone else.
:-D

Can you define a biblical lie?

 

[Poke]

I wouldn't lie.

Look at the Early Christians who were killed for their faith. All they had to do was lie and say they weren't Christians to prevent their murders. No harm, no foul? Right?

How many of you would blow up an abortion clinic to prevent the murder of babies? How many of you liberals support tough punishments to prevent murders of members of your favorite classes of people?

 

[thessalonian]

I wouldn't lie.

Look at the Early Christians who were killed for their faith. All they had to do was lie and say they weren't Christians to prevent their murders. No harm, no foul? Right?

Not the same at all.

Matt 10
33: but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Denial of Christ is the foul and it's a big one, above all others.

How many of you would blow up an abortion clinic to prevent the murder of babies?

Once again not the same. In order to justify this act one would have to know that an abortion was immediately immenant. In order for that to be the case the doctor would have to be performing the abortion in the clinic. Thus the doctor, baby, and mother would be killed. Just killing the doctor because he might at some point perform and abortion is not justified.

There is harm and foul in both of these cases you site. I'm not a liberal so I won't answer the other.

 

[LittleNipper]

Is it ever ok to lie?

Let’s say it you lived in German and were hiding a Jewish family in your house. One day the Gestapo (Nazi secret police) shows up and asks you if you have any Jew’s in your house.

Would you tell the Gestapo the truth knowing that they would be eventually be killed, or would you lie to them.

Think long and hard before you answer this.

Unless one enjoys sleeping in the sitting or standing position, it is perfectly okay to lie....

 

[stovebolts]

LilNipper,

I'm a little slow. Can you elaborate??

Anyway...

The more I think about this topic, the more I’m convinced that it all depends on how the spirit moves you to respond. In some cases, I think that it’s ok to lie while in others, it’s not ok. IT's a tough one for sure.

As far as biblical examples, I think about David when Saul was trying to kill him. And what did a Man after God’s own heart have to say to Jonathan?

1 Samuel 20:5-8 And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, tomorrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king to eat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at evening. If your father at all misses me, then say, David earnestly asked leave of me that he might run to Bethlehem his city: for there is a yearly sacrifice there for all the family. If he say thus, It is well; your servant shall have peace: but if he is very angry, then be sure that evil is determined by him. Therefore you shall deal kindly with your servant; for you have brought your servant into a covenant of the LORD with you: nevertheless, if there be in me iniquity, slay me yourself; for why should you bring me to your father?

I don’t recall God punishing David for this particular sin whereas when he killed Uriah there was a direct repercussion from God.

Hitting a little closer to the subject, I recall when Moses was born that the Pharaoh put out the order to have all of the Hebrew children slayed. I’m sure that if the mother or father of Moses were to have been asked if they had a child, they just may have lied. However, to my knowledge, this is a subjective opinion. However, I’m sure I recall the Pharaoh’s wife saying that Moses was her child. That’s a pretty darn good lie.

Either way, I think that if you respond through the spirit, then God’s will is going to prevail.

In the meantime, lets all pray that we don’t find ourselves in that kind of situation.


NOC,
What's your take on this?

 

[Poke]

Matt 10 33: but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

I don't think denying Christ (which wouldn't even be a lie if a person isn't yet a Christian) is an unforgivable sin. Peter denied Jesus three times, and he wasn't lost.

Once again not the same. In order to justify this act one would have to know that an abortion was immediately immenant.

No so. A sufficient level of violence would dissuade doctors and others from taking part in the abortion industry, thus making abortion inaccessible.

Granted, telling a simple lie to a nazi is a lot easier than blowing up abortion clinics, but I don't see how you can support one but not the other without being a hypocrite.

 

[Nikki]

Yes.

Even if you believe wholeheartedly in unflinching absolutes regarding an action you can certainly scale them, particularly for a specific context. A lie is bad and is always bad. Murder is bad and is always bad. Objectively murder is worse than a lie unless said lie leads to murder occurring. Therefore lieing is excusable in order to prevent murder, or tell the brownshirt to take a hike. If you don't hold to the unbending condemnation of specific actions as morally wrong then it's even easier.

This is why I was never really able to get into Kant; from what I've heard about it I just don't think it'd be worth my time to read up on him although I'm sure I will eventually.

If someone asks you "Don't you like my new haircut" and it's the most horrible haircut that you've ever seen, are you going to tell them that? If a woman has a child and that child really isn't all that cute, are you going to tell her that?

 

[destiny]

If someone asks you "Don't you like my new haircut" and it's the most horrible haircut that you've ever seen, are you going to tell them that? If a woman has a child and that child really isn't all that cute, are you going to tell her that?

You said it sister!! :

Let me make it crystal clear: If my child looks like ET or something worse, and I say to you "isn't he cute?" ....are you going to tell me the truth?
What do you folks say to that?? :-D

 

[Lewis]

Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the big one. To save a life, God will forgive you if you ask him. Suppose that was your mom or pop or your wife and kids, in that situation what are you going to do let them die ? I should think not.

 

[thessalonian]

I don't think denying Christ (which wouldn't even be a lie if a person isn't yet a Christian) is an unforgivable sin. Peter denied Jesus three times, and he wasn't lost.

Didn't say it was a lie. Didn't say it was unforgivable. Peter was forgiven.

No so. A sufficient level of violence would dissuade doctors and others from taking part in the abortion industry, thus making abortion inaccessible.

The violence is not justifiable unless the danger to the child is imminent is my point and does not involve the death of the child. I.e. the doctor would have to be killing the child in order to justify killing the doctor. Blowing up an abortion clinic during an abortion kinda kills the child is my point. If someone were about to kill my wife or child I would pull the trigger. However if they were outside with a gun and I saw them I would be required to give them an opportunity to put their gun down. Until the violence they were thinking became imminent I could not act in violence. The matter must be handled in another manner.

Granted, telling a simple lie to a nazi is a lot easier than blowing up abortion clinics, but I don't see how you can support one but not the other without being a hypocrite.

Doing violence (blowing up the clinic) when there is no imminent danger to a child in order to prevent a later danger is not justified. Once again other means must be used of trying to save children. Blowing up a building to stop possilbe abortions is not justified.
Call me one if you like. I am being consistent. Engage your mind.

 

[Vic C.]

If someone asks you "Don't you like my new haircut" and it's the most horrible haircut that you've ever seen, are you going to tell them that? If a woman has a child and that child really isn't all that cute, are you going to tell her that?

You said it sister!! :

Let me make it crystal clear: If my child looks like ET or something worse, and I say to you "isn't he cute?" ....are you going to tell me the truth?
What do you folks say to that?? :-D

I say if you ask if your baby is cute knowing full well your baby looks like ET, you deserve the truth! LOL :P

 

[Poke]

The violence is not justifiable unless the danger to the child is imminent is my point and does not involve the death of the child.

In other words, if the nazi at the door is just going to take the Jews to a prison camp, then you wouldn't lie to them because the death of those hiding is not imminent?

Your imminent argument has no relevancy. Preventing murder is preventing murder, whether your action has immediate results or not. The reason the law allows killing in self-defense only if the threat is imminent is because a crime will be over imminently! You don't need to kill anyone to protect yourself from a criminal if there is no imminent threat of death. In the case of abortion clinics and nazis at the door, the murders will still happen, even if not imminently.

You're using an irrelevant factor to try to rationalize inconsistent behavior.