Is it ever ok to lie?

[lovely]

This thread reminds me of Corrie Ten Boom, remember her, and her family? They helped people escape the Nazis, and they did not lie to do it. Corrie, and her family, prayed strongly for every need, and for God to open doors, and to give them ways out, and then they trusted Him to do it. He did.

I am also reminded of Abram, and Sarai, and how Abram told Sarai to lie to the men of Egypt and tell them she was his sister? He could have trusted God for protection, of which he received anyway, but instead He caused people who were treating him well to endure plagues. God could have worked it out prior to Abram's lie.

I think that God will open doors for any who obey His Word, and give them an out. I had to giggle at Nikki's examples, because those seem to be the ones that people lie about the most. I suppose we are all guilty. In this case, there aren't even lives on the line. But, if we think harder, and seek God's face on even small matters, He will help, I think. He will train out thought, and words, and our outlook to be more like Christ. Here's what I mean.

If Destiny's "cute" baby resembles E.T., do we lie when she says, "Isn't he cute?" Well, we don't have to. All babies are cute in the eyes of their mother. So, if E.T. baby has tiny little fingers, or little toes, or some other cute quality, then graciously focus on that. "He certainly has the cutest, tiny fingers!" or "He has the most precious little smile!" or twinkle in his eyes, and so on. This is step one in our training, but I think God would like more eventually. I think we can learn to look at things through the eyes of God who created them...to Him they are beautiful, and He allows us to see this if we look with eyes of love, as a mother who believes her child is the most beautiful child ever does, even if he resembles E.T. We can look in love, and see the true beauty that is there, that the mother sees. I think the same principal applies to every situation, really. We must pray that God help us to be gracious, and diplomatic, and then we must genuinely understand that beauty isn't merely skin deep, and that love as defined in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 is the way we should approach all things as believers, then we will find plenty to say, and mean, in these circumstances. If love thinks no evil, then E.T. won't come to mind. If love rejoices in the truth, then a little lie isn't loving at all, and we won't search for one. I think most people see through them anyway. Love bears all things, hopes all things, and endures. A mother looks past the sin, or defect in her child, and we can look past it in all people with eyes of love. Well, my opinion, anyway.

The Lord bless all of you.

 

[Poke]

Excellent post, lovely.

If someone has an ugly baby, you don't have to call the baby ugly (hypothetically, I've never seen an ugly baby). It's not a lie to fail to call the baby ugly. You can find something positive to say about any baby (e.g. all babies are precious).

If someone asks you about his haircut, and it is a bad haircut, where's the value in a white lie? Do you want your friend running around with a bad haircut? Would I appreciate my wife more if she let me walk into work with toilet paper stuck to the bottom of my shoe, food stuck between my teeth, or my hair a mess?

The fact is, most people with a bad haircut know they have a bad haircut Lying to them undermines your credibility. And, when the time comes that they really are unsure, they won't trust you if they know you tell little lies. Don't you value people more when they give you honest information, rather than just tell you what they think you want to hear?

The hypothetical case of a nazi at the door is designed to seduce a person into approving of lies. What are the real situations in your life where a lie was the right thing to say?

 

[destiny]

If someone asks you "Don't you like my new haircut" and it's the most horrible haircut that you've ever seen, are you going to tell them that? If a woman has a child and that child really isn't all that cute, are you going to tell her that?

You said it sister!! :

Let me make it crystal clear: If my child looks like ET or something worse, and I say to you "isn't he cute?" ....are you going to tell me the truth?
What do you folks say to that?? :-D

I say if you ask if your baby is cute knowing full well your baby looks like ET, you deserve the truth! LOL :P

LOL!!...but mothers are blind to that sort of thing!!

Lovely, your answer was great....always seasoned with Christ.

 

[moniker]

Yes.

Even if you believe wholeheartedly in unflinching absolutes regarding an action you can certainly scale them, particularly for a specific context. A lie is bad and is always bad. Murder is bad and is always bad. Objectively murder is worse than a lie unless said lie leads to murder occurring. Therefore lieing is excusable in order to prevent murder, or tell the brownshirt to take a hike. If you don't hold to the unbending condemnation of specific actions as morally wrong then it's even easier.

This is why I was never really able to get into Kant; from what I've heard about it I just don't think it'd be worth my time to read up on him although I'm sure I will eventually.

If someone asks you "Don't you like my new haircut" and it's the most horrible haircut that you've ever seen, are you going to tell them that? If a woman has a child and that child really isn't all that cute, are you going to tell her that?

The context is just about the furthest you can make it from the OP. Nothing is at risk here aside from friendliness and social platitudes. As well it is much easier to respond to that without lying thanks to the breadth of the english language. "It's something." is neither positive nor negative and simply acknowledges the existence of the baby or re-styled hair, for instance. This is where a lie, should you choose to make one, becomes morally ambiguous and much more gray than if a life is knowably at risk.

 

[stovebolts]

As always lovely, that was a great post.
I believe I said it in my last post, that for me it's a tough call for a good answer and it's because it's based on what I said in my first post and what you posted. I realize it's about faith, but I also know it's about choice.

Ok, let me know what you think.

http://www.bible.org/isbe.asp?id=5518

LIE; LYING - li, (sheqer (usually, e.g. Isa 9:15; Zec 13:3), or kazabh verb (Job 34:6; Mic 2:11); pseudos (Jn 8:44; Rev 21:27), "to speak falsely," "to fabricate," "to make a false statement"; pseudomai, in Acts 5:3,1):

1. Lying Defined:

In its very essence, a lie is something said with intent to deceive. It is not always a spoken word that is a lie, for a life lived under false pretenses, a hypocritical life, may be a lie equally with a false word (Jer 23:14). A vain thing, like an idol, may be a lie (Isa 59:4), as also a false system (Rom 3:7). Error, as opposed to truth, is a lie (1 Jn 2:21). The denial of the deity of Jesus Christ is regarded as "the" lie (1 Jn 2:22).

I think the key word here is deceive.

Here's what dictionary.com says.

1. To cause to believe what is not true; mislead.
2. Archaic. To catch by guile; ensnare.

v. intr.
1. To practice deceit.
2. To give a false impression: appearances can deceive.

I posted a verse from 1 samuel 20 when David had Jonathan deliberately lie to Saul. What do you make of this? According to definition 1, David was deceitful, but according to def 2, he wasn't. If we look at the connotation of this word, David was not deceitful.

Now, I'm not advocating a lie. I honestly believe that we should tell the truth, but in the case of Jonathan and David, it was about loyalty.
In the case of this ficticious scenario (which I'm sure really happened to somebody) of the nazi's knocking on your doorstep, isn't this also a loyalty issue and in lying, is it really being deceitful or is it about loyalty?

20:14 While I am still alive, extend to me the loyalty of the Lord, or else I will die! 20:15 Don’t ever cut off your loyalty to my family, not even when the Lord has cut off every one of David’s enemies from the face of the earth 20:16 and called David’s enemies to account.†So Jonathan made a covenant22 with the house of David.23

Was David lacking faith here?

Everyone else, don't shoot me here. Again, I'm not advocating a lie, but I'm trying to discern things here.

 

[thessalonian]

In other words, if the nazi at the door is just going to take the Jews to a prison camp, then you wouldn't lie to them because the death of those hiding is not imminent?

Well first of all we are looking in 20/20 hindsight here but it was known that the Germans did not have any good intentions. With this 20/20 hindsight we speak on these matters but what was immenent was our ability to help someone who very likely was going to get murdered by the nazis.

Your imminent argument has no relevancy. Preventing murder is preventing murder, whether your action has immediate results or not.

Yes I am afraid it does. Can't help it if you can't see it. Blowing up an abortion clinic without killing the doctor will not likely prevent many abortions. Immenence is completely relevant to whether you should or not. You seem to feel the need to tell me what my opinion is.

The reason the law allows killing in self-defense only if the threat is imminent is because a crime will be over imminently! You don't need to kill anyone to protect yourself from a criminal if there is no imminent threat of death. In the case of abortion clinics and nazis at the door, the murders will still happen, even if not imminently.

Blowing up the clinic won't help unless there are people in it doing the abortions. Chances are there is a mother with an unborn child in there as well. That blows your position. Sorry. If the doctor is not in there, then the situation is not imminent, so you have just verified my position that imminence is relevant. Thank you.

You're using an irrelevant factor to try to rationalize inconsistent behavior.

Nope.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Lovely,

Your story is nice and shows great faith in the people you speak of. But I suspect that all Christian people in Nazi Germany prayed. Some lied and protected Jews. I am not going to condemn what they did. I have little doudt God got to upset with them. Circustances do matter as I think I showed quite clearly with the "thou shalt not kill" example.

Yes, we can see cuteness in all babies in some fashion.

 

[peace4all]

this can be said about many other things.

The bible says it is wrong to kill, yet, killing sometimes is justifiable.

It is wrong to steal, but if your starving, and you stumble upon what appears to be an abandoned house, and you eat bread from inside, Is it stealing? It obviously belongs to someone, but, that someone could be dead, miles away, or never able to use it. Would preventing yourself from eating, be stealing? I mean yes, if you had a basket that produced its own bread, you don't have to steal it. But, would say, leaving your watch, for a loaf of bread, be theft? Maybe the owner of the bread does not value a watch, and still thinks its stealing.

 

[thessalonian]

Good point peace. David went in to the temple and took the bread of the prescence. (matt 12:4). Did he steal? Clearly. But Jesus does not condemn him for it in the slightest. David and his men needed the bread. I thought there was a story in the Gospels about a man stealing bread for his family as well but cannot find it offhand.

 

[lovely]

Hi Jeff,

I do not believe that David, and Jonathan, had to lie, but that they did lie. I understand the motive, as I am sure God does, but I do not think that it excuses the lie. God told Saul that obedience is better than sacrifice. Of course in Saul's case his motives weren't right either. Now, I understand why David, and Jonathan, did this. They were fearful, and David's life was on the line. Jonathan was unsure of Saul's motive, and I think that is why David wanted to reveal them...to be sure. He was very respectful of Saul because he was God's annointed. David surely knew, by now, that Saul intended to kill him...that is evident by his statement to Jonathan, but he was longsuffering. Could David, and Jonathan, have simply prayed that God reveal Saul's motives? I believe so.


I think we can only measure this by Christ's actions. Did he lie to the Pharisees ever, or deceive them? He didn't have to. He is the only one perfect.

As far as Corrie Ten Boom, and others, they chose to obey. I think that this requires a great deal of faith, and I do not suppose that I would react the same way in such a horrific situation. So, thess, please do not think I condemn believers who lied to protect the Jews...I do not. I suppose I would be among them, counting on the mercy of God. I do not believe that God condemns a believer under any circumstances, but rather in this specific situation clearly sees the motives of the heart, and counts if for good. Do they have to lie, though? God can answer any prayer.

Concerning David, he did not steal the show bread. Ahimelech, asked God for permission to give David the bread. 1 Samuel 22:10 "And he enquired of the LORD for him, and gave him victuals, and gave him the sword of Goliath the Philistine."

Jesus, in Matthew, is referring to David to illustrate to the Pharisees that God allows the basic needs of His people to be over ceremony. The Pharisees weren't even actually correct about the law. The disciples needed to eat, and they pulled the heads off the wheat. There was no sin in it according to the law, but even if there were...as with eating ceremonial bread. God can give His permission so that we do not offend Him. If the disciples were actually breaking the law, Jesus, being God, could give them permission anyway. Later He quotes Hosea 6:6 to show the Pharisees the sin in their hearts.

Hosea 6:6 "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

The Lord bless all of you.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Jeff,

Hello,

I do not believe that David, and Jonathan, had to lie, but that they did lie. I understand the motive, as I am sure God does, but I do not think that it excuses the lie. God told Saul that obedience is better than sacrifice. Of course in Saul's case his motives weren't right either. Now, I understand why David, and Jonathan, did this. They were fearful, and David's life was on the line. Jonathan was unsure of Saul's motive, and I think that is why David wanted to reveal them...to be sure. He was very respectful of Saul because he was God's annointed. David surely knew, by now, that Saul intended to kill him...that is evident by his statement to Jonathan, but he was longsuffering. Could David, and Jonathan, have simply prayed that God reveal Saul's motives? I believe so.

Agreed, neither had to lie, but they did. I also agree in your overall view as to the details of this story in scripture with the exception of, “they were fearful†Jonathan was in disbelief, David was fearfull. Before I go any further, I really want to state that I do not endorse lying and in general, I despise a liar. As a matter of fact, when I catch my kid doing something wrong and he lies about it, he gets in more trouble for the lying than he does for the action that he lied about; I was raised like that. I just really want to impress upon everyone that I can’t stand being around a deceitful liar.

I believe that David was longsuffering because he respected Saul as Gods anointed and not on what Saul’s actions merited. Concerning Saul as God’s anointed; David gave God due respect by obeying God’s will by giving Saul respect. I believe you touch on obeying God later in your post.

In my last post, I touched on some definitions of lying from http://bible.org and I noticed that deceit really played a big factor in truly defining what a lie was, or rather what a lie consisted of. Again, deceit is more than telling a lie, its intent is for self gain from somebody’s loss. True, anytime we don’t tell the truth we tell a lie, but is it really that black and white? I just can’t put my arms around it being that black and white in ALL cases. Most common cases yes, but not every case. I could be wrong here and I certainly don’t want to be responsible for changing some one’s view if I am wrong.

Jesus used to get after the scribes because they put scripture in this little box such as when Jesus was walking through the field and his disciples were rubbing grain between their hands. You know the end of the story, it’s at the bottom of your post. My point? I believe that it has everything to do with intent and the way you do it. In your own words you state that both David and Jonathan were respectful in this situation. That doesn’t sound deceitful to me in the least bit and truly changes the nature of their contrived lie to Saul.

As far as them praying to have Saul’s motive revealed, yes, they could have done that. But I’d say in addition that it’s my hunch that if David would have came to the dinner, then Saul would have had David’s head on a plate that evening. So in essence, they would have had to pray for more than Saul’s motive to be exposed. But let’s entertain that thought for a moment. Let’s say that Saul came clean and repented. If that were the case there would have been no need for David to step up to the plate; that is to say, become the King in the manner in which he did. That being said, we would be reading a radically different story in the bible since Christ came from David’s house.

I think we can only measure this by Christ's actions. Did he lie to the Pharisees ever, or deceive them? He didn't have to. He is the only one perfect.

Agreed, but he never ran right out and told everyone that he was the Christ. In retrospect, he told the demons not to expose him... Would you consider withholding information an indirect lie?
Again, I would like to key in on this word deceive. Neither David or Jonathan were out to deceive Saul, they were out to get the truth; or rather could I say, they’re motives and actions were for a good purpose.

As far as Corrie Ten Boom, and others, they chose to obey. I think that this requires a great deal of faith, and I do not suppose that I would react the same way in such a horrific situation. So, thess, please do not think I condemn believers who lied to protect the Jews...I do not. I suppose I would be among them, counting on the mercy of God. I do not believe that God condemns a believer under any circumstances, but rather in this specific situation clearly sees the motives of the heart, and counts if for good. Do they have to lie, though? God can answer any prayer.

Again, I agree with your statement without any rebuttal. In an earlier post I stated that I thought that maybe it came down to how the person was moved by the spirit to respond. I do not believe that the spirit would lead us to dishonor God and that goes into my initial post of honoring our neighbor on page one of this particular topic. If the spirit moves a person to disclose to the Nazi’s that they have Jews in their house, then the person needs to respond in the manner that the spirit moves them. Really, I don’t think that there is a wrong answer in regard to this particular scenario.

[quote="Lovely]Concerning David, he did not steal the show bread. Ahimelech, asked God for permission to give David the bread. 1 Samuel 22:10 "And he enquired of the LORD for him, and gave him victuals, and gave him the sword of Goliath the Philistine." [/quote]

Your exactly right. What I can recall from the top of my head though is that David had to correct Ahimelech in regard to what he Law taught. You might want to check me on this, but didn’t David say that he and his men hadn’t had sex for X many of days hence they were clean? Also, didn’t mercy override the law and since there was no other food, it would have been a mercy feeding in the eyes of God? Ahimelech understood this, the Pharisees and scribes didn’t.
In regard to Ahimelech, I have a hunch that what he told Saul wouldn’t have made much of a difference. Saul was so bent on David that he would have killed Ahimelech anyway.

Jesus, in Matthew, is referring to David to illustrate to the Pharisees that God allows the basic needs of His people to be over ceremony. The Pharisees weren't even actually correct about the law. The disciples needed to eat, and they pulled the heads off the wheat. There was no sin in it according to the law, but even if there were...as with eating ceremonial bread. God can give His permission so that we do not offend Him. If the disciples were actually breaking the law, Jesus, being God, could give them permission anyway. Later He quotes Hosea 6:6 to show the Pharisees the sin in their hearts.

Agreed. So, since we are not supposed to tell lies, do you agree that if you told a lie to protect an innocent person from being harmed, would this ordnance be overwritten by God’s law to love your neighbor in light of mercy?

Hosea 6:6 "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Not to side track here, but the whole sacrifice was to show the atonement. The altar pointed to the table and the table is where God communes with his children. If that isn’t mercy, I’m not sure what is.

The Lord bless all of you.

The Lord bless you too. I truly hope that I have not offended anyone.

 

[Oscar3]

Is it ever ok to lie?

Let’s say it you lived in German and were hiding a Jewish family in your house. One day the Gestapo (Nazi secret police) shows up and asks you if you have any Jew’s in your house.

Would you tell the Gestapo the truth knowing that they would be eventually be killed, or would you lie to them.

Think long and hard before you answer this.

Did not Rahab the harlot lie?

 

[stovebolts]

Oscar,
Thanks for sharing that scripture. I was thinking about it, but I couldn’t remember where or who it was about.

I think this is a good thread and I’ve been thinking about it a lot. Here’s what I’ve come up with. Now, I don’t want to be like Job whereas I multiply words against myself because we have all been taught that lying is a bad thing and it’s always been a black and white issue, but I really have to question exactly what entails a lie because I just can’t believe that all lies are bad.

Take for example what destiny said about the ugly baby. Is it really lying or do we call it being courteous? Mercy overrides a lot of situations and when the truth causes unnecessary pain, I think common courtesy should override our instincts to be brutally honest for no other reason than we are telling the truth according to the way we see things. In that specific example, ones truth is subjective and may not be truth as God sees it.

Now, I may be wrong here, but isn’t lying based on one of the Ten Commandments?
Exodus 20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
It doesn’t say, Thou shalt not lie… But most of us take this verse to say that.

Look at the situation that Oscar brought up. According to what most of us have been taught, Rahab lied. But let me ask, did she break the commandment? No, I don’t think she did. When Joshua “lied†to Saul, did he break this commandment? No, I don’t think he did either.

First off, who is your neighbor? I believe Luke 10:37 will answer this question. I’ve read that we must love our enemies, but I believe there is a distinct difference between our enemies and our neighbors.

Secondly, what is it to bear false witness? James 4:11 tells us exactly what it is to bear false witness. Again, either David, Jonathan nor Rahab were guilty of breaking this commandment.

Romans 13:10 tells us this, Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. When we look at the conversation between David and Jonathan, it was spoken in love, not malice. When Rahab hid the two men on the roof, she did it in love, not deceit.

The only other thing that I was thinking about was how David responded. I think that most would agree that when we are down and out, we are on our best behavior with God. David knew his scripture, that’s a huge given. His life was in danger and he knew it. Now, why in the world would he go against God’s commandment in such a dire time? It’s simple because unless somebody can show me elsewhere, he didn’t break God’s commandment when he asked Jonathan to “lieâ€Â.
Just to throw in the mix,
James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

According to these verses, either Rahab, Jonathan nor David committed a sin.

For those that have studied David and Bathsheba, we know how David lusted after her and that lust gave way to sin. But instead of looking at that part, what if we look at what David did once he was in that hard spot again? He did what most of us do, and that is to concede to God. Going back to David and Jonathan, David knew he was in a hard spot.

In closing, I think we really need to redefine what we are calling a lie and as such, I don’t think that the question that NOC posed should be affiliated with a lie from a biblical sense.

So what say ye? Have I multiplied words against myself like Job? If so, I ask in total humilty to show me my err.

Peace

 

[lovely]

This is very interesting, Jeff. I see you are trying to sort this out still, and I am waiting to see what you come up with, or what others come up with.

I am going to look in to this these situations where mercy comes before law....we know as far as ceremonial laws it has. Because of God's mercy, we are forgiven much of which should be punished for according to the law, but I am thinking should we not still strive to avoid such circumstances, and seek God's help in avoiding temptation?


I am still not convinced that lying, and being deceitful, for any reason isn't against God's law, obviously. The first thing that comes to mind here is that there is only truth is in the light of God, and that the truth sets us free, and the Bible tells us that God hates lies, and that they are an abomination to Him. God tells us that liars have place in Hell. And that satan is known as the deciever, and the Father of all lies, and actually excites men to lie.

Certainly none of us would say that satan's deception of men is okay, but his accusing (bearing false witness) of men is wrong. I think you are saying that deception, only for the sake of true mercy, is okay. I don't recall Jesus having to lie in order to show mercy. Is there a difference between ceremony, which was put in place so that God was not offended, and lying which God could never do? What if someone lies/deceives with the honest intention of mercy, but actually causes more harm that good.

For example, what if a young boy tells his father he intentionally threw a rock through the window of their home, that his younger brother actually shattered, in order to keep his brother out of trouble? Possibly from getting a swat even from their father, who is a believer, and just in his discipline. Isn't the older son being merciful to his younger brother, even to the point of possibly getting swat on his behalf?

Now, how would you respond if the father were a drunken child abuser, and completely unfair in his judgements?

I think that we would fault the older brother in the first example for deceiving his father, and not allowing the younger brother to receive the benefit of loving discipline.

I think in the second instance, we would applaud the boy for being so brave, and merciful.

I am just thinking out loud, and throwing it out there in a very unorganized manner, sorry about that, but maybe someone else can add, or correct, me here. This is an interesting topic, I thought so from the beginning. The Lord bless all of you today.

 

[destiny]

Josh 2:1-7
1 ¶ Then Joshua the son of Nun sent two men as spies secretly from Shittim, saying, "Go, view the land, especially Jericho." So they went and came into the house of a harlot whose name was Rahab, and lodged there. 2 It was told the king of Jericho, saying, "Behold, men from the sons of Israel have come here tonight to search out the land." 3 And the king of Jericho sent word to Rahab, saying, "Bring out the men who have come to you, who have entered your house, for they have come to search out all the land." 4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them, and she said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. 5 "It came about when it was time to shut the gate at dark, that the men went out; I do not know where the men went. Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them." 6 But she had brought them up to the roof and hidden them in the stalks of flax which she had laid in order on the roof.
_______________________________________

In the eyes of man Rahab lied, but in the eyes of God was her lie justified?
Probably.

Theres this couple who live a few blocks from us who were recently seperated because the wife suspected that the husband was committing adultry. It turns out he wasn't, but he wanted to be honest so he told her that he had developed feelings for another woman. (because she asked if he was in love with someone else)
That little statement tore his marriage apart.

In my opinion concealing some things is a matter of personal conscience
Just like in hiding a Jew from a nazi.
Can you conceal a matter outwardly, yet still remain truthful to the Holy Spirit and ones own conscience inwardly?

Personally, in some circumstances I think that you can.
It could even be an issue that carries over into the realm of faith as long as the outcome involves other lives.
It would totally and absolutely depend on the circumstances.

This is someting I wouldn't even argue because theres so much involved that would depend on the circumstances, and plus it's a heart and conscience issue between you and God.

 

[stovebolts]

Lovely,

The analogy of the brother intentionally telling lies so that the other would not get in trouble does not apply to what I am saying. In the instance you gave, what the boy did was wrong and there were consequences for that accident. What we have in that case is the avoidance of consequences for an action. That type of a lie is being deceitful so one doesn’t have to face the music. It’s plain deception with selfish motives.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits, and doctrines of demons; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

I know you’ve seen this verse, but in the case you give, what happens if the boy learns it’s ok to lie in that type of a situation? He begins to believe his lies and his conscience becomes seared.

Since a lie and deception are so closely related, how can we define what a lie is? Can we simply say that a lie is not the truth? I think so.

But what is truth? Jesus said, “I am the way, the TRUTH and the lifeâ€Â. (John 14:6) God’s truth is not subjective, only our perception of that truth is subjective.

The teachers in the time of Jesus thought they had the truth because they had Abraham as their father and they followed the Law. Why did the teachers reject Christ if they knew the Law so well? I asked this question in Bible study a few weeks ago at our church and a gal said, “They wanted Jesus to validate themâ€Â. Jesus wouldn’t validate them because they didn’t know the truth.

Paul wrote about the value of the Law in Romans. Simply put, the law allows us to know what sin is. Now, I ask anyone, show me in the LAW where David, Jonathan or Rahab committed a sin in the scriptures already mentioned or posted and I will recant every post in this thread.

Now, Jogging back up to what I said in the second paragraph above this one (the teachers not knowing the truth), lets look at John 8:42-44. In verse 44, Jesus speaks about lust and later states that out of their mouth will spew lies. Why is this? Simple, because they don’t know the truth.

So, lets apply this concept.

Lets say a Jewish family knocks on your door looking for shelter from the Nazi’s that are out to kill them. You say yes and invite them in. Remember, they’re counting on you to keep them safe and you agree.
A time later the Nazi’s come knocking at your door doing a routine search for stashed away Jews. All of a sudden, you get the feeling that lying is wrong and you just have to tell the Nazi’s that your harboring a Jewish family and they haul them off. Whew, Bravo to yourself as you pat yourself on the back for being so honest. After all, God’s looking down on you, isn’t he proud that you did the right thing? I know I know, it’s a horrible thing and all we can do is pray that they are safe. After all, it’s in God’s hands.

Was this really the right choice? I can’t buy it and I think it’s a grave sin. Lets look at 1 Timothy 4:1-2 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits, and doctrines of demons; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

I think that somebodies conscience got seared with a hot iron… Isn’t it ironic how Satan can fool us? What is this doctrine? That a lie is a black and white choice. That’s why I said in an earlier post that this decision should not be considered a lie, because it’s not based on THE TRUTH, but rather the truth that the world propogates.

With all this in mind, Please go back to my first post where I talked about honoring God. If we let our neighbors down when they are counting on us, we have deceived ourselves and like the teachers, the truth is not in us.

I believe all this requires discernment and it’s a pity that in the English language, a lie is defined in the truth of mans logical vision. That being said, according to the English understanding derived in our culture, Jonathan and Rahab lied, but they did not commit a sin and thus, I believe we have a destorted view of what a lie really is.

 

[stovebolts]

Lovely,
I just read your last post again. I didn't catch everything the first time I read it.
After reading it a couple more times, I think your final assumption hits the nail right on the head.

: I hate it when I don't take the time to really understand what a poster is posting. Please accept my apologies, Do you ever do that? :

 

[lovely]

Jeff,

No need to apologize, my post was a spatter of thoughts with no order...lol.
I am surprised you understood it at all. And, yes I do it too.

I think that the other aspect of the Nazi thing is, disobeying those in authority over us. We know that God's authority is greater. Is this another area where God is giving us permission to put mercy above the law? Probably so.

Stovebolts wrote:
I think that somebodies conscience got seared with a hot iron… Isn’t it ironic how Satan can fool us? What is this doctrine? That a lie is a black and white choice. That’s why I said in an earlier post that this decision should not be considered a lie, because it’s not based on THE TRUTH, but rather the truth that the world propogates.

Destiny wrote:

This is someting I wouldn't even argue because theres so much involved that would depend on the circumstances, and plus it's a heart and conscience issue between you and God.

I think it is hard to discuss because so many circumstances are not as concise as our little examples, and we don't really have a full understanding, or knowing, of events in Scripture as they truly were.

It is certainly something interesting though, understanding that God Himself has, at least in some cases, given us permission to break the law in order to show true mercy. Imitating Christ in a true way, is God's ultimate desire for the believer, because it is hinged on love. Jesus said that all the laws and the commandments hang on these two things, Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself. This is the truth of it, I suppose...genuine mercy before law. This is manifested by us listening to the Spirit of God in our hearts, and conscience...right where you, and destiny pointed. The Lord bless you.

 

[destiny]

It is certainly something interesting though, understanding that God Himself has, at least in some cases, given us permission to break the law in order to show true mercy. Imitating Christ in a true way, is God's ultimate desire for the believer, because it is hinged on love. Jesus said that all the laws and the commandments hang on these two things, Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself. This is the truth of it, I suppose...genuine mercy before law. This is manifested by us listening to the Spirit of God in our hearts, and conscience...right where you, and destiny pointed. The Lord bless you.

Amen to that lovely!!

 

[peace4all]

wow, I actually really enjoy reading this article.

This is definately a much more balanced discussion on the bible, than most of the others on this form, and I think its great. All of the posters seem to know scripture REALLY well, and are able to point out diffrent things and such.

Idunno, my post is a bit of a ramble, But i sort of like sitting back and listening when its a completly non sided discussion.