Is it necessary to pray for forgiveness daily?

[Veritas]

AVBunyan, sojourner,

I picked up this particular subject about "Scripture" and Christ and "authority" in this thread: http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 070#329070

Would you mind talking about that there please? I'd like to explore it.

 

[AVBunyan]

AVBunyan, Christ is my authority and History only confirms that authority.

How do you know what Christ says?

Do you believe I am a universalist?

Until you show me in a simple way what you believe my position is there can be and will be no more discussion between us....I will exercise my right to utilize the "Ignore" button -

And please do not flatter yourself in thinking I am trying to run from you - I must redeem the time.

 

[Guest]

AVBunyan,

How do you know what Christ says?

It has been Given to the Apostles. All Truth was delievered to them and to the saints of the ancient Church. The Apostles taught that Truth throughout the Roman Empire of that day and not one of them taught it differently. Amazing, eh. Even more amazing is that in subsequent times we have common understanding across that same Empire from many faithful witnesses who recorded further what was believed, how the Apostles had taught the Gospel which aligns with what was written. It was an Oral Gospel put into practice for almost 300 years before we have a common book which put the letters and Gospels together so that all future generations would have the authentic from all the false. That same Truth, as Christ and the Holy Spirit had promised is still in existance today within His Body, the Church, He established upon this earth. He continues to work in man within His Body as He promised, to guard, to protect the Gospel and His Church.

Do you believe I am a universalist?

I'm not sure there is a name for what you believe. But the explanations without justifiying them with the texts, which is the Gospel, tends to make what you state a form of universalism.

Until you show me in a simple way what you believe my position is there can be and will be no more discussion between us....I will exercise my right to utilize the "Ignore" button -

I have relative to the texts given. Prove to me that you believe Christ died for mankind, that mankind has been redeemed. Justify your view in the light of those texts. You have never answered in any shape or form the text I have twice now submitted for your view. Why is that?

And please do not flatter yourself in thinking I am trying to run from you - I must redeem the time

a simple copout. Show that the Apostles and all of Christianity throughout history has always believed the way you do, using the texts I quoted? Give it a try!

 

[AVBunyan]

AVBunyan, Show that the Apostles and all of Christianity throughout history has always believed the way you do, using the texts I quoted? Give it a try!

I never said Christ died for all mankind.

I believe he died for his own - the elect.

You are very confusing. I'm trying hard not to click the "Ignore" button. Call it Cop out if you want - I call it common sense.

BTW - what does this have to with the original post?

Finally - your explanation on Christ being your authority and not scripture is sad. Sounds like your authority lie in men.

 

[Imagican]

How about we DO use the WORDS of Christ HIMSELF.

"Our Father who art in heaven hollowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it IS in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES AS WE FORGIVE THOSE THAT TRESSPASS AGAINST US................."

This is what CHRIST offered as to HOW we ARE to PRAY TO THE FATHER. OBVIOUSLY this was MEANT to BE a 'daily prayer'.

You will ATTEMPT to state that this was BEFORE Christ died for our sins. REDICULOUS assumption. Like OTHER issues. to STATE this is simply to IGNORE what was offered and simply USE THIS to justify s verance from the TRUTH.

IF we SIN each and every day, we SHOULD, (as Christians), BE convicted of these sins in our hearts. IF NOT, then I suggest that one that is NOT convicted of their sins is NOT 'in The Spirit'. And IF convicted of one's sins there IS NEED for repentance. NOT ONLY repentance BUT STRENGTH to avoid committing the SAME sins OVER AND OVER.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Mec
Thanks for getting the thread back on track.... :smt023

 

[jgredline]

AVBunyan,
I have relative to the texts given. Prove to me that you believe Christ died for mankind, that mankind has been redeemed. Justify your view in the light of those texts. You have never answered in any shape or form the text I have twice now submitted for your view. Why is that?


I'm not sure there is a name for what you believe. But the explanations without justifiying them with the texts, which is the Gospel, tends to make what you state a form of universalism.

Sojourner
You have already been warned once about Ad hominem attacks...
You are making false accusations about a long standing member and if you would go back and read his post, you would know exactly where he stands....He needs not prove anything to you or any man..This statement truly says allot......Consider this formal warning number 2
JG

 

[Guest]

AVBunyan,

I never said Christ died for all mankind.

I know, you actually denied it. But the fact, the historical fact, is that the Gospel was given and understood that Christ did not just die for all mankind, but also saved all mankind from the fall. It is the very meaning of the words, redemption, reconcile, justify man to God through the Work of Christ on the Cross.
So, if your view is Scriptural, follows the "rule of faith" has always been understood this way then you should have no trouble is explaning this within your view.
If you want to simply show that it is your view among many views, that it does not align with the historical witness of the Gospel, just say so. There is nothing wrong with that approach either.
Those views are legion, but you are welcome to one of them.

Finally - your explanation on Christ being your authority and not scripture is sad. Sounds like your authority lie in men.

Yes, Christ working through men. As He has since Adam. God does not operate in a vaccum. We do exist for a reason. Christianity is a universal Gospel. Christ is that unity. Salvation is not a smorgasborg and it is not just choosing which one, nor having the authority to create the faith we desire, all from a book which was never meant to be the foundation of Truth. Christ is the foundation and the Apostles are the first bricks in that building. No where is the Bible even remotely given as an authority, let alone isolated from its whole content and context.

BTW - what does this have to with the original post?

It bears on the fact that you claimed that Christ forgave all the sins on the Cross, that a believer does not need to seek repentance or even make confession.
Up to this point, you have not shown that it is scriptural in that it follows the "rule of faith" from the beginning. You keep avoiding the historical fact of the Incarnation and the meaning of the Incarnation as understood at the time of the Councils and has not been changed since.
To save you the time, since time is so important to you, it means that Christ assumed our fallen natures and through the Incarnation overcame death and restored our mortal natures to immortality and incorruptibility. All men, mankind were given life.
So, if you want to insist that Christ also forgave all the sins on the Cross, then please explain to me why that would not be a form of Universalism. At least rationalize that for me so I can better understand your view.
jgredline apparently does not understand this point either. Maybe he should help you to explain your view in that light.
It is true that you do not need to prove anything. But if you make a statement such as you did, and I have shown that the understanding of scripture on that particular view with all the texts to the contrary, then I would think it might behoove you to at least show that either I am wrong, the Church is wrong, has always been wrong and the Gospel and His Church actually has never been preserved through the ages as Christ promised He would. Leaves a lot of doubt that He might not be as reliable as He states.
If, per chance, you are not actually claiming that your view is the Gospel ONCE given and it matters not that it was or was not actually believed and is not the very basis of Christianity, then I can accept that as well.
So, can either of you explain how your view is justified given all the texts I quoted twice now. Then we might have the answer to, Did Christ actually forgive all sins on the Cross.

Once you do that, then you have the added work to justify it with Mec, who I believe, is also a protestant. He has it understood correctly, why not you.

 

[AVBunyan]

...................Once you do that, then you have the added work to justify it with Mec, who I believe, is also a protestant. He has it understood correctly, why not you.

Not a clue what you are referring to or where you are heading. :o :o :o )

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

The word "whosoever" fell out of somebody's Bible...

 

[AVBunyan]

The word "whosoever" fell out of somebody's Bible...

Are you referring to mine?

 

[jgredline]

The Devil And Martin Luther
There is a legend of Martin Luther, that, during a serious illness, the Evil One entered his sickroom and, looking at him with a triumphant smile, unrolled a big scroll which he carried in his arms.
As the fiend threw one end of it on the floor, it unwound by itself. Luther’s eyes read the long, fearful record of his own sins, one by one. That stout heart quailed before the ghastly roll.
Suddenly it flashed into Luther’s mind that there was one thing not written there. He cried aloud: “One thing you have forgotten. The rest is all true, but one thing you have forgotten: ’The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. ’ “ And as he said this, the Accuser of the Brethren and his heavy roll disappeared.

Baker encyclopedia

True or Not, the facts do not change...We are cleansed by The Blood of Jesus Christ.......

 

[Guest]

jgredline,

True or Not, the facts do not change...We are cleansed by The Blood of Jesus Christ.......

.....Through Faith

 

[jgredline]

jgredline,

.....Through Faith

Agreed

 

[francisdesales]

Av,

He he he!!! Not 'QUITE'. Our Catholic brothers out there would take SERIOUS offense to you comparing me to them. I PROMISE.

Looks like they discovered our "plant".

quick, imagican, make a run for it :P

Actually, some of what you say at times comes closer to Catholicism then Protestantism. You'll probably take that as a personal attack, but it isn't meant that way.

Regards

 

[Guest]

jgredline,

My statement: ....Through Faith

Your response:
Agreed

From what you have stated and agreed with relative to AVBunyans view, this "Agreed" is a absolute contradiction.

Just so I have it correct, AVBunyan has been saying all along right from the start that

3. The saint already has forgiveness in Christ for past and futuree sins:

This is followed by your undivided, unequivocal support:

AV is 100% theologically correct here.....

Alone voice has picked it up perfectly....

It is not necessary to pray and ask for forgiveness daily because if your born again, all past, present and future sins are nailed to the cross....

Now, which is it going to be. Either we already have it, guaranteed right from the Cross, given to all and covers all past, present and future sins, what is faith for anyway. It is totally meaningless in your statement, IF you actually believe your own statements.

Could you clarify your theology here?

 

[jgredline]

sojourner
You have been taking me and AV out of context....I suggest you go back and read our post if you really want to know what we believe.....Frankly you are not worth my time to respond to....Your theology from what I have read is all over the road...

But for the sake of the ''believers'' on this thread, I will give them a simple answer....

It takes faith to believe that by Jesus death and resurrection all of our past, present and future sins have been dealt with...Why, because it takes ''works'' out of the equation.....It is by the Grace through faith and not by works lest anyman should boast......

 

[Guest]

jgredline,

You have been taking me and AV out of context....I suggest you go back and read our post if you really want to know what we believe.....Frankly you are not worth my time to respond to....Your theology from what I have read is all over the road...

your context, but you are not following the context of Scripture.
Is it more important to know what you believe, (which I do understand fully) or to understand how the Bible has been understood for 2000 years. I seem to recall you saying that the Bible says this, or Scripture says this. Is it then more important what you have interpreted it to mean for you or how it has been understood and beleived, practiced by Christians for 2000 years, without a changes, I might add. I see several variations right here on this board with other personal opinions of what one's own intellect can devise.
So, let me know just what you are aiming at. If it is your view, I fully understand it, long ago, and you and I can end our discussions Others who might still not understand your view can continue.
But if you are looking at what the Scriptures has meant for 2000 years, then we can progress some more.

It takes faith to believe that by Jesus death and resurrection all of our past, present and future sins have been dealt with...Why, because it takes ''works'' out of the equation.....It is by the Grace through faith and not by works lest anyman should boast......

So why believe. Your sins have already been forgiven anyway. It is not a matter of belief at all. Satan believes as well. So now how do you differ?

Works has nothing to do with it in the first place either, relative to the Work on the Cross. That is why Christ is needed, because man cannot do it.

"Through faith" is all about works. you cannot eliminate it. That is why you don't have forgiveness from the Cross. Why.
Because man is totally incapable of doing two things. Giving himself life, nor can he propitiate his own sins. Christ did all of that work. Nothing man did, can do, change, cannot even reject it. He is powerless to do anything relative to the Work of Christ on the Cross.
Now, does that help your works problem.

What follows is what you were created to do, even if the fall never occurred. It is all about works. What do you think Adam was doing in the Garden. He named all the animals, He was purposely created to have elements of both, divine and physcial. He was created to be in communion, to share the created order and to govern it WITH God. He did this freely, because he was created free. He chose to leave God.

We can also, since all of mankind was freed from that curse of Adam by Christ. We cannot overcome the fall. Impossible, but we surely can do all the rest of the work with God, since that is why we exist in the first place. He did His Work so we could do ours with Him.
That is the Gospel Truth as it was from the foundation of the World, revealed to mankind, and more explicitedly in the NT, the New Covenant.

so, which do you want. All forgiven on the Cross or we receive that reconciliation through OUR faith. Then be saved THROUGH our faith. That is the entire NT in a nutshell.


This is why your tagline is totally incorrect as to your interpretation. It is applying to mankind, not believers. Believers only because they are, obviously, part of the whole.

 

[Solo]

For the sake of not reading the entire thread and just posting this comment concerning the OP.

It is very important to continually ask forgivness for sins as the Holy Spirit brings them to our understanding, not for forgivness for salvation, but for total fellowship with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

A born again believer who has been born of God does not sin, but the flesh that is the vehicle of that new creation does sin, and requires being submitted to the Spirit so that the lusts of the flesh are not accomplished. When the flesh prevails, then confession of sin is necessary in order to subject the flesh to the Spirit; whereupon full fellowship can continue.

What kept the prodigal son from fellowshipping with his father? His sinful fleshly desires. When the prodigal son confessed his being wrong, and repentence took place, he found his father at the entrance to his house with outstretched arms.

 

[jgredline]

For the sake of not reading the entire thread and just posting this comment concerning the OP.

It is very important to continually ask forgivness for sins as the Holy Spirit brings them to our understanding, not for forgivness for salvation, but for total fellowship with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

This is what Many of have been saying...Thanks Solo..